Electric Water Heater or am I insane?

[Fanatical Meat]

I need a new water heater, electric is the only option. I'm thinking about a hybrid unit (see link). Cost wise its more but masssaves offers a $750 rebate assuming I have it installed by a plumber which I can for around $500-600. My current unit has an estimated yearly energy cost of $555, this unit is either $110 or $195. We have solar in the house but an extra energy credit is good, this unit will cost about $600 more than a standard install myself unit with a comparable warranty.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Pe...ric-Tank-Water-Heater-XE50T10HD50U0/300620237

Facts:
50 gallons should be fine there are two people in the house
Space is not an issue
Drainage is not an issue
It's located in the basement which generally stays above 45 degrees
My basement is slightly damp, this also works like a dehumidifier to a small extent

Questions:
Does this require a different electric line than a standard 14 year old electric model?
I'm a bit concerned about the added parts adding more crap to fail?
Would the cold air blowing out of this cool the basement too much or am I over thinking that?
Am I being stupid ?


Looking for input

 

[13Gigatons]

What cold air...the water heater will produce heat and some humidity. Not much in a standard basement though.

Hookup should be standard 240 volt.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

What cold air...the water heater will produce heat and some humidity. Not much in a standard basement though.

Hookup should be standard 240 volt.

Sorry I didn't add the link, it's a hybrid heat pump water heater

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Pe...ric-Tank-Water-Heater-XE50T10HD50U0/300620237

 

[pcgeek11]

I of the mind that when you add in complications to a simple device ( water heater ) it will only increase the chance of a breakdown and a larger expense to repair it when it does.

A simple electric water heater cheaper going in and can be installed and repaired by most end users for a very small charge for parts such as a new heater element and or a thermostat.

That unit you linked is a huge repair bill waiting to happen. Between the inflated price, the install charge and the projected repair bills you will not save any money IMO.

 

[pcgeek11]

I had a friend of mine that built a house and had a hybrid geothermal heating system installed as it was supposed to save him thousands of dollars over the life of the unit. Instead after fighting this thing for 4 years and spending many thousands of dollars in an attempt to get it working as advertised he finally had it ripped out and installed a conventional heat pump and is now happy.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I had a friend of mine that built a house and had a hybrid geothermal heating system installed as it was supposed to save him thousands of dollars over the life of the unit. Instead after fighting this thing for 4 years and spending many thousands of dollars in an attempt to get it working as advertised he finally had it ripped out and installed a conventional heat pump and is now happy.

I am concerned about that however with an additional $60 I end up with a 6 year full warranty plus a no lemon guarantee (3 repairs on same stuff = new unit, no prorate) this can also function without the heat pump portion as a normal water heater. I'm torn because the extra electric savings just equals more of an energy credit but I am able to transfer that credit to my parents bill if it gets real high.
Cost wise after rebate and some tax savings it's not that much more expensive than a decent 10 year warranty standard unit

 

[Micrornd]

We went with a whole house on-demand electric water heater. Since I did the entire install (electrical and mechanical) myself, it paid for itself in 18 months in reduced electric bills (YMMV)
And yes, it does take a bit longer for hot water to reach the far side of the house (we are talking less than 20 seconds) compared to the old "standing" hot water heater, so some water is wasted, but it never "runs out" of hot water either.
The important thing is to size it properly for your intended uses, ours allows both showers, dishwasher and washer to run at the same time

 

[Fanatical Meat]

We went with a whole hose on-demand electric water heater. Since I did the entire install (electrical and mechanical) myself, it paid for itself in 18 months in reduced electric bills (YMMV)
And yes, it does take a bit longer for hot water to reach the far side of the house (we are talking less than 20 seconds) compared to the old "standing" hot water heater, so some water is wasted, but it never "runs out" of hot water either.
The important thing is to size it properly for your intended uses, ours allows both showers, dishwasher and washer to run at the same time

Yeah I'd love this solution it's just not a practical solution for someone in the Northeast, inbound water tempature is just too cold in the winter, plus no rebate in my area for electric tankless.

 

[Micrornd]

Yeah I'd love this solution it's just not a practical solution for someone in the Northeast, inbound water tempature is just too cold in the winter, plus no rebate in my area for electric tankless.

You may want to check that, I doubt your incoming is less than 45F, ours is 68F, 17F is hardly much difference to a tankless.
I know I have friends in Alaska that use the same unit, in fact they recommended it to me.
As to rebate, the unit we use has gone up in price since we bought it (it is now $650US), but I have no idea how that compares to your hybrid with rebate.
Just thought it might be worth looking into, but it sounds like you're sold on a hybrid.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

You may want to check that, I doubt your incoming is less than 45F, ours is 68F, 17F is hardly much difference to a tankless.
I know I have friends in Alaska that use the same unit, in fact they recommended it to me.
As to rebate, the unit we use has gone up in price since we bought it (it is now $650US), but I have no idea how that compares to your hybrid with rebate.
Just thought it might be worth looking into, but it sounds like you're sold on a hybrid.

Partially, I know of two people with tankless electric and both have the same probl m of it taking too long for hot water.
The in bound water temp in the winter is around 45
I don't want to have a tankless installed then listen to the wife complain the water is cold.
If I had NG that would change everything but sadly that is not an option. I'm not putting a propane tank in.

 

[NetWareHead]

How do you heat your house? Forced air or boiler?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

How do you heat your house? Forced air or boiler?

Oil forced hot air

 

[NetWareHead]

Oil forced hot air

nvm then. I like to recommend indirect fired water heaters but only work if you have a boiler

 

[stormkroe]

OP, I noticed the QA section regarding power mostly made mention of voltage only. Make sure your existing circuit is on a 2 pole 30 amp or you'll have to upgrade to that breaker and wire to #10 (the unit you linked says 20.9A load, 80% duty breaker would be 26.125A = 30A breaker).

 

[Fanatical Meat]

OP, I noticed the QA section regarding power mostly made mention of voltage only. Make sure your existing circuit is on a 2 pole 30 amp or you'll have to upgrade to that breaker and wire to #10 (the unit you linked says 20.9A load, 80% duty breaker would be 26.125A = 30A breaker).

Bummer looks like 2 twenty's

 

[Red Squirrel]

Not a big deal to swap out a breaker, but you will need to run new wire. 10/3 is good for 30 amps if I recall. (may need to look this up to make sure)

Those heat pump style heaters are an interesting concept, but I just wonder how practical they are. For a good part of the year you don't really want extra cold air, and in the summer months when you do, how much is it really running anyway. Like in theory you will only gain "cold air" when new water enters the unit. When it runs to reheat the water that's been sitting there, it's simply because the heat leaked out and the air in the house/around the heater is now hotter.

For that kind of money I think I would look at a gas condensing tankless. Been pondering on that myself. I'm just afraid it may not end up being able to cope with the 0 degrees incoming water in winter.

 

[stormkroe]

Bummer looks like 2 twenty's

Well that sucks. Cutlers trip properly too, if you had a federal stab lok I'd say go for it because you can weld with a 15a stablok (some people's house burn down from them). Where are you at? I have tons of breakers of most brands and miles of 10/2 wire. I doubt you're anywhere close to me but you could just have it if you were.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Update:

Finally replaced it withthe new gen of precious link found here. Cyber Monday it was $1060, rebate may not happen because finding a plumber to install it for less than $650-$1000 was problematic.
But I’ll try anyways rebate form was vague if it had to be installed by a professional.
Conservatively on paper is should save us approximately $20 per month in electric usage.
Version 4 has the WiFi built in and it can be synced you our nest which will put it into eco mode when the nest goes to away mode. Kind of cool thing but being able to change your water temperature via an app is pretty stupid.
The fan on the heat pump portion can be loud but it’s not an irritating loud, sounds like an in window AC unit. Not relevant to me since it’s in the basement but if you have it in a closet it’s something to be aware of.
The heat pump does put out a good amount of cold air basement feels a little colder but I haven’t taken a temperature yet. Not so cold that I’m worried about anything freezing but I’ll keep an eye on it.
Heated 50 gallons of cold water in a little more than an hour. Going to try running the washer & take a shower simultaneously today.
I needed a new electric line run, old wire appeared to be the last wire from 1960 and it was for two 20 amp run. Glad I changed that wire because when I pulled it down there were several spots with exposed copper. New line is the heavy orange double insulated type.
Final thing that is cool it has a plug for a water sensor that somehow shuts the line off if it detects a leak. This is an optional part I need to read about it more.
**I changed the breakers to two 30A and I upsized the run to the water heater one wire gauge, I think it’s good for 2 40A, I’m not an electric guy. I did it with someone who is.

Link:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-P...PIPHorizontal2_rr-_-303419586-_-303419574-_-N


This is next to my sump pump so condensate line drips into the well.

 

[pcgeek11]

That is one sexy water heater!

 

[Fanatical Meat]

That is one sexy water heater!

It is & I agree with your earlier opinion of its added complexity to break however I’m set for one year with Rheem and an additional five years with Home Depot. Year 7 and beyond is the danger zone.
I do get concerned that the display is perpetually on, I’m a previous telecom guy and the screen appears to be decent quality for what it is however I’m not sold on the idea of the app being compatible with whatever device I have in 8+ years and will the lcd still function?
Overall it’s a pretty neat unit. Wife is much happier now which is priceless.
I didn’t post a picture because I need to insulate the hot water lines, it looked far too ghetto re-purposing the old pipe insulation.
I need to figure out the leak sensor thing too. HD doesn’t sell it and I’m trying to understand how a sensor turns a valve but maybe there is some valve inside the unit it trips when it detects water.

*Washer on warm and shower running simultaneously was a success

 

[Red Squirrel]

Interesting, so it uses a heat pump to help warm the water up? So basically you have cold air coming out? In winter you don't exactly have a need for cold air so you could duct it outside or to cold storage or something but in summer it would basically add cold air to the house which you'd want.

I hate how everything these days is going the "app" route though. I have the same concern, will it work on my device in 10 years from now? We bought a new soundboard for church and the salesman was trying to get us to buy a digital one and it is neat, like you can control the sliders with an ipad and stuff but will that app work in 10 years from now, is my concern. We went analog to be safe. Phones and tablets move so fast they're always getting updates etc, and will the app devs actually want to continuously keep up or will they phase out updating old sound boards... or in this case, water heaters. Don't know why they can't make these things just have an ethernet port and a web based administrative console. No need for any apps.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Interesting, so it uses a heat pump to help warm the water up? So basically you have cold air coming out? In winter you don't exactly have a need for cold air so you could duct it outside or to cold storage or something but in summer it would basically add cold air to the house which you'd want.

I hate how everything these days is going the "app" route though. I have the same concern, will it work on my device in 10 years from now? We bought a new soundboard for church and the salesman was trying to get us to buy a digital one and it is neat, like you can control the sliders with an ipad and stuff but will that app work in 10 years from now, is my concern. We went analog to be safe. Phones and tablets move so fast they're always getting updates etc, and will the app devs actually want to continuously keep up or will they phase out updating old sound boards... or in this case, water heaters. Don't know why they can't make these things just have an ethernet port and a web based administrative console. No need for any apps.

You can use the display to adjust anything that the app can do but I hear ya.
It dehumidifies too when its in heat pump mode.

 

[Paperdoc]

Sorry, but I'm going to sound negative here. If I understand this water heater fully, it has a small heat pump system (think of a refrigerator or air conditioner) that absorbs heat from the surrounding air, discharging cooler air into the room, and then puts that heat into the water in the tank. To do that it runs a compressor by an electric motor. In addition there is an option to use electrical power through a heating element in the tank to add more heat quickly if needed.

ANY heat pump system is by nature LESS than 100% efficient in its use of electricity. It "moves" heat energy from one place to another, but to do that it also creates waste excess heat from the motor and compressor operation.What can be deceptive is how the "efficiency" calculation is done. If you calculate the amount of heat energy delivered to the water and compare that to the amount of energy provided by the electrical system only, it looks very good. But in fact the reason this whole design works is that it TAKES energy in the form of heat from the surrounding AIR and moves it into the water. In many heat pump systems (for a good example, Ground Source heat pumps) the heat source is truly free. BUT in this case the heat source is the air in the surrounding room. Where does that come from? If it is air that YOU heat using your house's furnace, then YOU are paying for that heat to begin with. Unless you figure out a way to measure that added heat cost on your furnace fuel bill, you will never realize what this system is really costing you beyond the electricity cost.

Now, IF your basement is too warm a lot of the time and you would otherwise install an air conditioner to cool it, that's a bit different. This unit will act like an air conditioner, pushing the heat removed from the room air into a water tank rather than outside a window. So the capital, operating and maintenance costs of that air conditioning system would be offset somewhat by using this water heater system instead for that purpose of cooling the basement. But if you would NOT spend money on that room cooling job, there are no savings to offset the cost of the water tank.

What some people do not realize is that any plain electrical water heater is by its design ALWAYS 100% efficient! That is, ALL of the energy consumed from the electrical supply is delivered into the water completely. Where such devices do have "efficiency losses" is in the insulation systems. The tank itself will loose heat through the walls, so REALLY good insulati0on around the tank is needed. I expect that most common electric water heater tanks do not have the BEST insulation provided on them, but you can add more. And of course, insulating the pipes through the house needs doing. BUT both of those things are exactly the same for ANY type of water heater tank, irrespective of the heat source used.

Gas-burning water heater tanks often are cheaper to operate than electric ones, especially if they are using piped natural gas. That is because the energy efficiency lost (and higher costs) for electric systems happens at the power generating plant. Conversion of fuel of whatever form to electrical power involves significant energy efficiency loss, and there are small additional losses in the electicity distribution grid system, but then the electical energy that arrives at your home can be 100% efficient in a water heater. For a gas-fired heater, the energy efficiency of delivering the gas to your home is quite high, and the efficiency of converting that fuel into heat in your water is also quite high. That's why the overall cost of a gas system can be less than an electrical water tank IF you have a natural gas source available.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Sorry, but I'm going to sound negative here. If I understand this water heater fully, it has a small heat pump system (think of a refrigerator or air conditioner) that absorbs heat from the surrounding air, discharging cooler air into the room, and then puts that heat into the water in the tank. To do that it runs a compressor by an electric motor. In addition there is an option to use electrical power through a heating element in the tank to add more heat quickly if needed.

ANY heat pump system is by nature LESS than 100% efficient in its use of electricity. It "moves" heat energy from one place to another, but to do that it also creates waste excess heat from the motor and compressor operation.What can be deceptive is how the "efficiency" calculation is done. If you calculate the amount of heat energy delivered to the water and compare that to the amount of energy provided by the electrical system only, it looks very good. But in fact the reason this whole design works is that it TAKES energy in the form of heat from the surrounding AIR and moves it into the water. In many heat pump systems (for a good example, Ground Source heat pumps) the heat source is truly free. BUT in this case the heat source is the air in the surrounding room. Where does that come from? If it is air that YOU heat using your house's furnace, then YOU are paying for that heat to begin with. Unless you figure out a way to measure that added heat cost on your furnace fuel bill, you will never realize what this system is really costing you beyond the electricity cost.

Now, IF your basement is too warm a lot of the time and you would otherwise install an air conditioner to cool it, that's a bit different. This unit will act like an air conditioner, pushing the heat removed from the room air into a water tank rather than outside a window. So the capital, operating and maintenance costs of that air conditioning system would be offset somewhat by using this water heater system instead for that purpose of cooling the basement. But if you would NOT spend money on that room cooling job, there are no savings to offset the cost of the water tank.

What some people do not realize is that any plain electrical water heater is by its design ALWAYS 100% efficient! That is, ALL of the energy consumed from the electrical supply is delivered into the water completely. Where such devices do have "efficiency losses" is in the insulation systems. The tank itself will loose heat through the walls, so REALLY good insulati0on around the tank is needed. I expect that most common electric water heater tanks do not have the BEST insulation provided on them, but you can add more. And of course, insulating the pipes through the house needs doing. BUT both of those things are exactly the same for ANY type of water heater tank, irrespective of the heat source used.

Gas-burning water heater tanks often are cheaper to operate than electric ones, especially if they are using piped natural gas. That is because the energy efficiency lost (and higher costs) for electric systems happens at the power generating plant. Conversion of fuel of whatever form to electrical power involves significant energy efficiency loss, and there are small additional losses in the electicity distribution grid system, but then the electical energy that arrives at your home can be 100% efficient in a water heater. For a gas-fired heater, the energy efficiency of delivering the gas to your home is quite high, and the efficiency of converting that fuel into heat in your water is also quite high. That's why the overall cost of a gas system can be less than an electrical water tank IF you have a natural gas source available.

Basement has cooled a little bit, spring project will be to add a vent to move the cold air outside.

 

[paperfist]

It’s not ducted to outside?

It’s weird seeing condensate lines on a hot water heater