Electric Heat vs Gas Heat: Which is Cheaper? (2023 edition)

[Red Squirrel]

Wow that's a super good deal. I was eyeing putting a 2 zone system in to do garage and living room but for now focusing on getting the wood stove setup. I will probably eventually setup a hot water loop as well so I can heat garage and if I go with a storage system I may also heat the bathroom with in floor heat. In the case of the bathroom it would save me from having to run the furnace at all in the morning when I get up.

 

[sdifox]

With a woodstove in the basement, waking up in the morning is no longer a problem you have to deal with.

 

[iRONic]

Slightly related…In 1988 the house I bought in Windham, CT had electric, radiant heat sheetrock ceiling panels!!!

Me & my dad installed a wood burning stove in the basement before I moved in. Disconnected power to the thermostats control to em!!

The property was surrounded on three sides by a large wooded lot. There were fallen trees everywhere. Free seasoned firewood.

We cut, split, and stacked wood for a few weeks during the time before winter. Even rented the splitter after the first year. lol. I heated that house for almost free for 5 years.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Saw a post today on our local FB page and some people in my city getting hit with $500 gas bills, craziness! Mine is still $163 but I don't look forward to next adjustment. It helps that I'm alone and tend to keep the house cold but people with families can't really get away with that. I think we're going to start seeing wood stoves make a big come back.

 

[Hans Gruber]

Slightly related…In 1988 the house I bought in Windham, CT had electric, radiant heat sheetrock ceiling panels!!!

Me & my dad installed a wood burning stove in the basement before I moved in. Disconnected power to the thermostats control to em!!

The property was surrounded on three sides by a large wooded lot. There were fallen trees everywhere. Free seasoned firewood.

We cut, split, and stacked wood for a few weeks during the time before winter. Even rented the splitter after the first year. lol. I heated that house for almost free for 5 years.

That's a great story. You destroyed the environment for 5 years to save yourself a buck.

 

[Red Squirrel]

That's a great story. You destroyed the environment for 5 years to save yourself a buck.

Wood is carbon neutral and practically free. So why not. Ideally you should never need to cut a live tree for firewood. Plenty die of natural causes.

 

[skyking]

The price per KWH vs the therms of natural gas plus the math to figure it all out is like doing taxes the hard way. It takes time to make a valid comparison and it is always oversimplified, unless the tools you are using factor in all that and your home's losses and the climate zone you are in and the passive heat you get from the sun and all that and a slice of pi.
The government renewed the 30% federal tax credit for many forms of renewable heat sources, so it is worth a look.
My new build will have solar panels and Ground Source Heat Pumps (GSHP).
We have very little cooling needs, so the primary heat will be a water to water hydronic heat pump supplying piping under the subfloor for radiant heat.
We will also have a 3 ton water to air heat pump for fast reaction heating and the cooling we may need.
The 30% credit applies to the heat pumps, ground loops, and the entire hydronic system.

 

[Brainonska511]

Wood is carbon neutral and practically free. So why not. Ideally you should never need to cut a live tree for firewood. Plenty die of natural causes.

Wood is hardly carbon neutral, once you account for how much wood you need for heating and how long it takes to grow from a sapling. Nevermind the general pollution that comes from burning wood.

 

[Hans Gruber]

Wood is carbon neutral and practically free. So why not. Ideally you should never need to cut a live tree for firewood. Plenty die of natural causes.

I am not against using a wood stove if that is your primary source of heat. I am not against cutting trees down. They are a renewable resource. Trees capture carbon and regularly burning wood to save money releases all that carbon into the atmosphere.

 

[Paperdoc]

Using wood to burn for heating IS carbon neutral. ALL of the carbon in a tree comes from CO2 from the air. ALL of the carbon in that wood IS converted by complete combustion to CO2 into the air again. The SLIGHT exception if you do have a good stove / furnace that burns properly is that a SMALL amount of that carbon may end up as other combustion products (gaseous or solid) that do degrade over a longer time period to carbon / oxygen gases OR to other nutrients in the soil that are likely to end up back in plants.

Like any other forest resource, if you plan to use a woodlot full of trees as a fuel source, it needs to be managed on a Perpetual Yield basis. That is, over the long term, the rate of harvesting for whatever uses must match the rate of re-growth. That re-growth rate depends a lot on the climate in your area and the species of trees. I live in the Pre-cambrian Shield area of Canada where many natural forests are dominated by coniferous Black and White Spruces, Jackpine, some Balsam Fir, mixed with several deciduous species like Birch and White and Black Poplar (Aspen). Most of the coniferous species are considered mature and suitable for harvest for many uses at 70 to 90 years, and over-mature beyond that. The deciduous species are mature in 40 to 75 years. So VERY roughly, whatever your planned rate of harvesting is per year, you need a woodlot of about 70 t0 90 times that to be able to manage on a perpetual yield basis.

We are NOT used to thinking in those terms for forests and woodlots, because the time frame is very much like our own lifetime. BUT the principle is exactly the same as a farm field, where the yearly harvest is exactly the same as the yearly growth. In that latter case we don't worry about the time frames - that field may generate harvests every year for our entire lives.

 

[pmv]

Wood is carbon neutral and practically free. So why not. Ideally you should never need to cut a live tree for firewood. Plenty die of natural causes.

Wood-burning stoves are supposed to be _terrible_ for the environment and your own health. The particulate pollution they cause is considered to be very bad for you, though I think the worst of it is endured by the occupants of the property.

‘Eco’ wood burners produce 450 times more pollution than gas heating – report

Report from chief medical officer Prof Chris Whitty finds air pollution kills up to 36,000 people a year in England

www.theguardian.com

Wood burners emit more particle pollution than traffic, UK data shows

Revised government data estimates a lower proportion of pollution comes from wood stoves but they remain a ‘major contributor’

www.theguardian.com

Indoor Air Pollution from Residential Stoves: Examining the Flooding of Particulate Matter into Homes during Real-World Use

This study concerns the levels of particulate matter (PM2.5 and PM1) released by residential stoves inside the home during ‘real world’ use. Focusing on stoves that were certified by the UK’s Department of Environment, Food, and Rural Affairs (DEFRA), PM sensors were placed in the vicinity of 20...

www.mdpi.com

The study has four core findings. First, the daily average indoor PM concentrations when a stove was used were higher for PM2.5 by 196.23% and PM1 by 227.80% than those of the non-use control group. Second, hourly peak averages are higher for PM2.5 by 123.91% and for PM1 by 133.09% than daily averages, showing that PM is ‘flooding’ into indoor areas through normal use. Third, the peaks that are derived from these ’flooding’ incidents are associated with the number of fuel pieces used and length of the burn period. This points to the opening of the stove door as a primary mechanism for introducing PM into the home. Finally, it demonstrates that the indoor air pollution being witnessed is not originating from outside the home. Taken together, the study demonstrates that people inside homes with a residential stove are at risk of exposure to high intensities of PM2.5 and PM1 within a short period of time through normal use. It is recommended that this risk be reflected in the testing and regulation of residential stoves.

 

[skyking]

They can be really rough on the neighbors too. They have burn bans all the time around here for that reason.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

God guys the dude choose to heat his living space with wood. I have zero problems with someone using a properly installed, properly maintained wood stove in a manner as it is made to be used.
Let’s move on.

 

[pmv]

God guys the dude choose to heat his living space with wood. I have zero problems with someone using a properly installed, properly maintained wood stove in a manner as it is made to be used.
Let’s move on.

In the case of Red Squirrel I don't have any problem with it as, as I understand it, he lives in the middle of nowhere, without anyone around but himself to breath in the particulates it puts out. I'm not keen on people using those things in urban areas though. Their being 'properly installed, properly maintained' doesn't actually make much difference to the alarming level of particulate pollution those things produce, though.

 

[sdifox]

In the case of Red Squirrel I don't have any problem with it as, as I understand it, he lives in the middle of nowhere, without anyone around but himself to breath in the particulates it puts out. I'm not keen on people using those things in urban areas though. Their being 'properly installed, properly maintained' doesn't actually make much difference to the alarming level of particulate pollution those things produce, though.

He actually lives in a city. He has plans to move out to the woods, but the woodstove is going into his basement. Timmins does allow wood burning stoves.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

In the case of Red Squirrel I don't have any problem with it as, as I understand it, he lives in the middle of nowhere, without anyone around but himself to breath in the particulates it puts out. I'm not keen on people using those things in urban areas though. Their being 'properly installed, properly maintained' doesn't actually make much difference to the alarming level of particulate pollution those things produce, though.

If they are permitted to allow installation in the area using them is fine. Don’t whine to the owner, complain to the permit board.

 

[waffleironhead]

Im just wondering how someone "opportunistically." acquires 20+ full pickup loads of hardwood per year(more if softwood) for free. There must be a timber free-for-all north of the border.

 

[Red Squirrel]

If they are permitted to allow installation in the area using them is fine. Don’t whine to the owner, complain to the permit board.

Or don't complain at all. Some people just like to shit in other's corn flakes and that's a huge problem with today's society. Sadly cities seem to always listen to these type of karens and we all suffer because of them when they pass new laws.

Im just wondering how someone "opportunistically." acquires 20+ full pickup loads of hardwood per year(more if softwood) for free. There must be a timber free-for-all north of the border.

Pretty much every time I go to my off grid property or any bush road I run across a few fallen trees. I usually cut them and move them to the side but now I'll just keep them and fill the truck and bring the logs back home. Sometimes people have trees in their yard that fell and want to get rid of as well. Wood is everywhere just need to be more on the lookout.

 

[nakedfrog]

He actually lives in a city. He has plans to move out to the woods, but the woodstove is going into his basement. Timmins does allow wood burning stoves.

It does seem for the time and effort involved a heat pump would probably be a better solution, but it's not my house. My wood stove is basically there for emergencies, I'd rather set a thermostat than haul wood, start the fire, and then feed it. We only use my fireplace every great once in a while, for enjoyment.

 

[pmv]

He actually lives in a city. He has plans to move out to the woods, but the woodstove is going into his basement. Timmins does allow wood burning stoves.

From what I've seen I'm not sure I'd call Timmins a city. Canadians seem to interpret the word 'city' very loosely. It's 14 people per square km (this city, for comparison is more like 6000 people per square km).

 

[pmv]

Or don't complain at all. Some people just like to shit in other's corn flakes and that's a huge problem with today's society. Sadly cities seem to always listen to these type of karens and we all suffer because of them when they pass new laws.

No, the rest of us suffer when we have to breath in the crap you pump into our air. _That's_ the huge problem with today's society - the selfishness of a minority.

However, as you seem to live in a village (or an empty bit of countryside, really) that only pretends to be a city it's all moot anyway.

 

[sdifox]

From what I've seen I'm not sure I'd call Timmins a city. Canadians seem to interpret the word 'city' very loosely. It's 14 people per square km (this city, for comparison is more like 6000 people per square km).

I don't know why they call it a city. It's a town at most. Hell my city has 353k and I think it's a town.

I think the smaller open pit mine is with within city limits



Worrying about air pollutant while living next to an open pit mine is a waste of time.

 

[Captante]

God guys the dude choose to heat his living space with wood. I have zero problems with someone using a properly installed, properly maintained wood stove in a manner as it is made to be used.
Let’s move on.

I think we ALL know it's not just about the wood burning stove for some folks around here!

And I personally am all for having moved along prior to starting! 😉

 

[MrSquished]

I don't give a flying fuck about squirrel installing a wood stove whether or not particular it matter is harmful to him the way he sets it up.

Just disappointed he keeps talking about the great reset and all of these conspiracy theories and all this nonsense and he's wasting his money and time improving his home among people instead of streaming live-building his off the grid property and farm. That's where the fun starts!

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Im just wondering how someone "opportunistically." acquires 20+ full pickup loads of hardwood per year(more if softwood) for free. There must be a timber free-for-all north of the border.

I dunno how fast a wood burning stove burns through wood, but I've got half of the back of a 3 car garage seasoning some poplars that died on my property. Maybe 7 of them? and they each took maybe an hour to fell, cut, and transport. I could see just meandering through the forest next to my property and ripping apart fallen trees with my electric chainsaw. Could easily clear a few truckloads without blinking.

I heat a 2700 sq ft space with about 3 tons of wood pellets every season (upstate ny) so i'd wager if someone was in a 1500 sq ft place, 2 tons or so of hardwood in a wood burner would likely do it unless the BTU's are much worse. Doesn't take much tree to clear that.

Biomass is one of the better heating methods as long as old growth isn't touched. Or if it is it's done very selectively and sustainably... most forests will repopulate gaps exceedingly quickly. Bonus points if you know how to target dead/dying trees, ones with girdled roots, rotting branch sockets, supported by dead trees, etc. Hell you can even collar them in-place and let them season themselves where they stand for a year or two.