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Either way, Bush is a fraud

phillyTIM

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2001
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Criminal or Scofflaw?

Either way Bush is a fraud.

by Jacob G. Hornberger
Philadelphia City Paper
July 24, 2003

In claiming that 16 controversial words in his State of the Union address last January were technically correct, the president is implying that he didn?t actually deceive -- or intend to deceive -- the American people.

Nothing could be further from the truth. While the president wants people to focus only on the technical wording of his carefully crafted sentence, he forgets what every lawyer in the country knows -- that actionable fraud consists not only of a false representation of a material fact but also of the intentional failure to disclose a material fact.

And what could be more material than the CIA's conclusion that the entire Saddam-Niger-uranium connection was bogus? Here's the sentence in question: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." Why would the president have included that sentence in his State of the Union speech?

The answer is inescapable: The president's intent was to terrify the American people into believing that Saddam Hussein had the means to explode a nuclear bomb over some American city -- either now or in the immediate future. Who can deny that the president successfully generated the mind-numbing fear that became a principle reason that Americans supported the invasion of Iraq? Even while Bush was claiming that he'd yet to make up his mind about invading Iraq, he was already sending an invasion-size force to the region. Remember also that commentators were suggesting that weather conditions dictated that the president would have to order an invasion before the onset of summer.

Thus, Bush knew that at some point his only choice was going to be to 1) invade 2) leave 150,000 U.S. troops indefinitely sitting in the Kuwaiti desert and on the high seas or 3) return the troops home. He also knew the last two options were not politically viable.

The president needed public support for option one, fast. He had to convince America that waiting for toady UN inspectors simply wouldn't cut it. What better way to garner support for an immediate invasion than to terrify Americans with the prospect of a nuclear bomb destroying an entire American city in the near future?

In determining the president's intent in January, those 16 words uttered in his State of the Union address should be considered in the context of the words that he used a few months earlier -- October 2002 -- in a speech he delivered in Cincinnati:

"The Iraqi regime is seeking nuclear weapons We agree that the Iraqi dictator must not be permitted to threaten America and the world with horrible poisons and diseases and gases and atomic weapons The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at sites that have been part of its nuclear program in the past. Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons. If the Iraqi regime is able to produce, buy or steal an amount of highly enriched uranium a little larger than a single softball, it could have a nuclear weapon in less than a year Knowing these realities, America must not ignore the threat gathering against us. Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof -- the smoking gun -- that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud."

In light of post-invasion discoveries, one could be forgiven for asking whether the president's representations in that Cincinnati speech were false and, if so, whether he made them with knowledge of their falsity. What we do now know is that by the time that Bush spoke in Cincinnati, he had deleted a section of the speech suggesting that Saddam Hussein had attempted to purchase uranium from Niger. The reason the president had made that deletion was that the CIA had advised him that the information was bogus.

Thus, when the president decided to announce in January that "the British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa," the American people, who were weighing whether to support a war against Iraq, had a right to know that the CIA, our nation's own intelligence service, had reached an opposite conclusion.

The president knowingly and intentionally failed to disclose that material fact when he uttered those 16 words in his State of the Union address, and that critical omission was obviously designed to create a false impression within the minds of the American people.

As any lawyer will tell you, that's fraud.

Mr. Hornberger is founder and president of The Future of Freedom Foundation and holds a law degree from the University of Texas. If you would like to respond to this Slant or have one of your own (850 words), contact Howard Altman, City Paper editor in chief, 123 Chestnut St., third floor, Phila., PA 19106 or e-mail altman@citypaper.net.
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
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So nice to see yet another balanced and fair posting by phillyTIM who claims to be chosing no sides.

Michael
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,711
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What are the sides to choose from? Those who believe he blatantly lied or those who believe Bush places more important on foreign Intelligence than his own CIA?
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
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Well my idol and god, Mr. William Jefferson Clinton told me to move on. So I am.
 

phillyTIM

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2001
1,942
10
81
Hey I didn't add a single word to that post, I'm simply posting a story from my hometown City Paper. Take it as you will, I thought of it as another addition to compare against other news.
 
Dec 27, 2001
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Originally posted by: phillyTIM
Hey I didn't add a single word to that post, I'm simply posting a story from my hometown City Paper. Take it as you will, I thought of it as another addition to compare against other news.

News, you say? That's nothing but an editorial by a frustrated liberal. You didn't think we had enough of those on this board, or something?
 

Tripleshot

Elite Member
Jan 29, 2000
7,218
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Republicans should hold Bush to no less a standard for impeachment than what they held Clinton to. Clinton lied to the people and congress about a BJ he got from a frumpy hag intern. Bush lied about elements of a threat to US soil knowingly and specifically meant to deceive. The cost of this lie outweighs that of Clintons lie by a million fold.

But Bush supporters are blinded to that. They will vilify anyone who challenges this President and declare those who do as anti American. That is so far from the truth. An American has the right to petition the government for redress when that citizen has been wronged. Those who call for an investigation do so because they love their country, and when something goes wrong, such as this, they want-- no --they are obligated to fix it.

So when Bush supporters attack you for wanting accountability, ignore them. They are obviously too small minded to think coherently, because any rational person would want the truth, not the spin.
 
Dec 27, 2001
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Originally posted by: Tripleshot
Republicans should hold Bush to no less a standard for impeachment than what they held Clinton to. Clinton lied to the people and congress about a BJ he got from a frumpy hag intern. Bush lied about elements of a threat to US soil knowingly and specifically meant to deceive. The cost of this lie outweighs that of Clintons lie by a million fold.

But Bush supporters are blinded to that. They will vilify anyone who challenges this President and declare those who do as anti American. That is so far from the truth. An American has the right to petition the government for redress when that citizen has been wronged. Those who call for an investigation do so because they love their country, and when something goes wrong, such as this, they want-- no --they are obligated to fix it.

So when Bush supporters attack you for wanting accountability, ignore them. They are obviously too small minded to think coherently, because any rational person would want the truth, not the spin.

You don't see a difference here between a blatant bald-faced lie and the addition of a line of information genuinly thought to be true? Of course not.
 

Tripleshot

Elite Member
Jan 29, 2000
7,218
1
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You don't see a difference here between a blatant bald-faced and the addition of a line of information genuinly thought to be true? Of course not.

You don't see the difference between consensual sex between two adults, and a war and invasion costing 1 billion a week started on false pretense, not to mention the death that occurs with that action?

Of course not.
rolleye.gif
 

DaiShan

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2001
9,617
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Originally posted by: shinerburke
That depends on what your definition of is, is.

Brilliant! Simply brilliant. I don't think I will ever tire of your broken record head in the sand arguments.
 
Dec 27, 2001
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Originally posted by: Tripleshot
You don't see a difference here between a blatant bald-faced and the addition of a line of information genuinly thought to be true? Of course not.

You don't see the difference between consensual sex between two adults, and a war and invasion costing 1 billion a week started on false pretense, not to mention the death that occurs with that action?

Of course not.
rolleye.gif

You raised the issue of lying...are we switching topics now because you got pwned? If so, let me know.
 

DaiShan

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2001
9,617
1
0
Originally posted by: Tripleshot
Republicans should hold Bush to no less a standard for impeachment than what they held Clinton to. Clinton lied to the people and congress about a BJ he got from a frumpy hag intern. Bush lied about elements of a threat to US soil knowingly and specifically meant to deceive. The cost of this lie outweighs that of Clintons lie by a million fold.

But Bush supporters are blinded to that. They will vilify anyone who challenges this President and declare those who do as anti American. That is so far from the truth. An American has the right to petition the government for redress when that citizen has been wronged. Those who call for an investigation do so because they love their country, and when something goes wrong, such as this, they want-- no --they are obligated to fix it.

So when Bush supporters attack you for wanting accountability, ignore them. They are obviously too small minded to think coherently, because any rational person would want the truth, not the spin.

My thoughts exactly, I couldn't have said it any better myself :)
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,711
8
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Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: Tripleshot
Republicans should hold Bush to no less a standard for impeachment than what they held Clinton to. Clinton lied to the people and congress about a BJ he got from a frumpy hag intern. Bush lied about elements of a threat to US soil knowingly and specifically meant to deceive. The cost of this lie outweighs that of Clintons lie by a million fold.

But Bush supporters are blinded to that. They will vilify anyone who challenges this President and declare those who do as anti American. That is so far from the truth. An American has the right to petition the government for redress when that citizen has been wronged. Those who call for an investigation do so because they love their country, and when something goes wrong, such as this, they want-- no --they are obligated to fix it.

So when Bush supporters attack you for wanting accountability, ignore them. They are obviously too small minded to think coherently, because any rational person would want the truth, not the spin.

You don't see a difference here between a blatant bald-faced and the addition of a line of information genuinly thought to be true? Of course not.

We don't have a president to start wars on what he "genuinely thought to be true". A decision to invade a sovereign nation based on blind faith is utterly appalling. It's not just an 'addition of a line' it was his WHOLE argument for war- that Iraq has and threatens to use WMDs on us! His only tidbit of evidence to support this bold claim was this uranium. Do you think Americans would have supported the war if the only thing we got going against Iraq was that Saddam dind't fully cooperate with UN inspections in the past but continues to improve his cooperation as the days go by?
 

DaiShan

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2001
9,617
1
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Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: Tripleshot
Republicans should hold Bush to no less a standard for impeachment than what they held Clinton to. Clinton lied to the people and congress about a BJ he got from a frumpy hag intern. Bush lied about elements of a threat to US soil knowingly and specifically meant to deceive. The cost of this lie outweighs that of Clintons lie by a million fold.

But Bush supporters are blinded to that. They will vilify anyone who challenges this President and declare those who do as anti American. That is so far from the truth. An American has the right to petition the government for redress when that citizen has been wronged. Those who call for an investigation do so because they love their country, and when something goes wrong, such as this, they want-- no --they are obligated to fix it.

So when Bush supporters attack you for wanting accountability, ignore them. They are obviously too small minded to think coherently, because any rational person would want the truth, not the spin.

You don't see a difference here between a blatant bald-faced lie and the addition of a line of information genuinly thought to be true? Of course not.

Ok, I will try to break it down for you, I'm going to take it reallllyyyy slow. Clinton lied under oath, a criminal offense, he was impeached. Now ask yourself what a lie is? Is it a knowing falsehood? Yes. Under that same definition a knowing falsehood can also be the knowing omission of information, or knowingly using false information (the CIA did say it was false prior to the speech) Since you offer no counter-definition we are forced to accept my definition and apply it to your arguments. Very simple, I don't think I could have lost you in that.
 

DaiShan

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2001
9,617
1
0
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: Tripleshot
You don't see a difference here between a blatant bald-faced and the addition of a line of information genuinly thought to be true? Of course not.

You don't see the difference between consensual sex between two adults, and a war and invasion costing 1 billion a week started on false pretense, not to mention the death that occurs with that action?

Of course not.
rolleye.gif

You raised the issue of lying...are we switching topics now because you got pwned? If so, let me know.

Read my post, if you still don't get it after that, I give up...
 
Dec 27, 2001
11,272
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Originally posted by: DaiShan
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: Tripleshot
Republicans should hold Bush to no less a standard for impeachment than what they held Clinton to. Clinton lied to the people and congress about a BJ he got from a frumpy hag intern. Bush lied about elements of a threat to US soil knowingly and specifically meant to deceive. The cost of this lie outweighs that of Clintons lie by a million fold.

But Bush supporters are blinded to that. They will vilify anyone who challenges this President and declare those who do as anti American. That is so far from the truth. An American has the right to petition the government for redress when that citizen has been wronged. Those who call for an investigation do so because they love their country, and when something goes wrong, such as this, they want-- no --they are obligated to fix it.

So when Bush supporters attack you for wanting accountability, ignore them. They are obviously too small minded to think coherently, because any rational person would want the truth, not the spin.

You don't see a difference here between a blatant bald-faced lie and the addition of a line of information genuinly thought to be true? Of course not.

Ok, I will try to break it down for you, I'm going to take it reallllyyyy slow. Clinton lied under oath, a criminal offense, he was impeached. Now ask yourself what a lie is? Is it a knowing falsehood? Yes. Under that same definition a knowing falsehood can also be the knowing omission of information, or knowingly using false information (the CIA did say it was false prior to the speech) Since you offer no counter-definition we are forced to accept my definition and apply it to your arguments. Very simple, I don't think I could have lost you in that.

You're ASSUMING he knew it was false. Do you not understand that just because you think it's so doesn't make it so? I thought you learned that when you jumped off your parent's roof thinking you could fly. If we're going to impeach Presidents for including or not including something which they do or don't know the 100% validity of, then we'll have 265 million presidents in 265 million days.

The statement isn't even false. Britain stands by their claim so George Bush is not incorrect in saying the British Intelligence has learned about it.
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
234
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phillyTIM - your post wasn't news, it was an opinion piece. You also violated Fair Use by posting the entire thing, but Anandtech has decided to do nothing on this point after it was pointed out so I'm assuming that it is fine to do so here.

lozina -

If you don't see the fact that Congress approved the use of force before the state of the union address and that the WMD argument was that he has them and is a threat to use them against us in the future (probably via terrorists), then you lack the critical reasoning facilities to make arguing with you worthwhile.

I'm tired of the leaps in logic and the distortion of the timeline of what happened:

1. Iraq used chemical weapons against Iran and against their own people in the past

2. There is no doubt that they were building a nuclear reactor to start the production of nuclear bombs

3. The UN so strongly believed that WMD existed in Iraq that an inspections regime was set up backed by sanctions

4. The inspections regime documented the existence of and destruction of chemical weapons and confirmed the existence of biological and nuclear weapons programs

5. The inspections process was unable to prove all known weapons were destroyed

6. The inspectors were kicked out/pulled out and the US (under Clinton's orders), bombed Iraq

7. The argument before the UN was not does Saddam have the weapons but whether an invasion was needed vs. other inspections

8. The American argument was that direct force was needed because Saddam was too much of a threat to allow ineffective inspections to continue indefinitely

9. Congress and Senate both authorized the use of force. This was an election issue and the Republican party gained seats in the Senate and gained votes showing that the American people were behind the decision

10. All of the information about WMD was available to the previous administration and there was little or no contesting of the intelligence by either party

11. Before the attack happened, the US tried one more run through the UN. It was in this time period that the State of the Union speech was given. This is not a speech given under oath and it is and always has been a political event. This speech had a statement about Iraq trying to buy uranium in Africa. One intelligence point supporting this was shown to be weak.

The entire justification for the war does not and has never been the one supposed attempt to purchase uranium in Africa. The WMD argument was strong and there is no doubt that Iraq harboured terrorists and was active in supporting them. The risk was properly stated and it was a risk that most countries in the UN agreed to.

My frustration is with the intelligence services. Recently, it appears that every urgent action that turned on what the CIA or other agencies provided has proven to be based on faulty intelligence. This goes further back - Clinton bombed a factory that did appear to not be a WMD site as it was supposed to be. There is a huge failure here and I'm growing increasingly frustrated with Bush and his Administration protecting them.

Michael
 

DaiShan

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2001
9,617
1
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Sigh, you don't get it do you? He said it. It is his duty to verify what he says in his speech, I can't just go commit a crime then say I didn't know it was illegal and get off. He is responsible for his actions 100%. You then continue to justify his actions by supporting them with a half truth that britain believes they are still legitimate, although we cannot confirm them. In my book a half truth is just as bad as a lie.
 

DaiShan

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2001
9,617
1
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The entire justification for the war does not and has never been the one supposed attempt to purchase uranium in Africa. The WMD argument was strong and there is no doubt that Iraq harboured terrorists and was active in supporting them. The risk was properly stated and it was a risk that most countries in the UN agreed to.

I don't really want to go point by point as it would take forever, however this statement really does not sit well with me. The primary justification for the war was WMD, what is it now that it is apparent we will never find any WMD in Iraq? Liberation of the Iraqi people. How convenient.
 

phillyTIM

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2001
1,942
10
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Michael : I fully comply with [edit] any fair use policies that I'm aware of [/edit] (WAS: Anandtech's Fair Use policy). This story rides on a link that changes each week; posting the link would render it stale after a week, and people won't be able to refer back to the story when it is gone. The link points to a certain place where the story changes each week, as you can see with the link below.

http://citypaper.net/articles/current/slant.shtml

Get over yourself. And remember the title of this forum is "Politics and News"; this article can fit either way.

I comply with Anandtech's rules and am justified with what I posted.
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
234
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It doesn't matter that the link changes every week, you still are not allowed to cut and paste entire news articles/editorials, etc.

Anandtech does not have a Fair Use policy, so you have nothing to comply with. I stated in my post that Anandtech's lack of a policy or action against people violating copyright means it is fair game. I'm not saying you're violating an Anandtech rule.

Michael



 

phillyTIM

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2001
1,942
10
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Originally posted by: DaiShan
Sigh, you don't get it do you? He said it. It is his duty to verify what he says in his speech, I can't just go commit a crime then say I didn't know it was illegal and get off. He is responsible for his actions 100%. You then continue to justify his actions by supporting them with a half truth that britain believes they are still legitimate, although we cannot confirm them. In my book a half truth is just as bad as a lie.

Right on, Dai! Why would George take another country's intelligence over his own, which proved to be unproven months before.
 
Dec 27, 2001
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Originally posted by: DaiShan
The entire justification for the war does not and has never been the one supposed attempt to purchase uranium in Africa. The WMD argument was strong and there is no doubt that Iraq harboured terrorists and was active in supporting them. The risk was properly stated and it was a risk that most countries in the UN agreed to.

I don't really want to go point by point as it would take forever, however this statement really does not sit well with me. The primary justification for the war was WMD, what is it now that it is apparent we will never find any WMD in Iraq? Liberation of the Iraqi people. How convenient.

This truly isn't difficult to grasp. Try really hard and you'll see.

Saddam had wmd. He admitted it. He used them. He lost a war of conquest. The UN demanded he submit proof of how he disposed of the wmd he had. He didn't. He didn't. He still didn't. As a responsible nation, we had to assume that he still had them and acted accordingly.

But this thread isn't about the wmd...it's about lying and I'm not going to keep trying toe ducate you on the war since you, as we've seen, believe pretty much whatever you want to.
 

phillyTIM

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2001
1,942
10
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posed by Michael: " phillyTIM - your post wasn't news, it was an opinion piece. You also violated Fair Use by posting the entire thing, but Anandtech has decided to do nothing on this point after it was pointed out so I'm assuming that it is fine to do so here."

then Michale said: "Anandtech does not have a Fair Use policy, so you have nothing to comply with. I stated in my post that Anandtech's lack of a policy or action against people violating copyright means it is fair game. I'm not saying you're violating an Anandtech rule."


you are beginning to sound a lot like George and his delusional statements.