Egypt's New Constitution

[Agent11]

Here is a link to an english translation.

http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/egypt-s-draft-constitution-translated

What do you think? Here are some Gems I found worthy of note.

CONSTITUTION PREAMBLE


We, the people of Egypt,
In the name of the merciful God and with his aid,
declare this to be

Our Constitution, the document of the 25th of January revolution, which was started by our youth, embraced by our people, supported by our Armed Forces;

Having rejected, in Tahrir Square and all over the country all forms of injustice, oppression, tyranny, despotism, exclusion, plunder and monopoly;

Proclaimed our full rights to “bread, freedom, social justice, and human dignity,” paid for by the blood of our martyrs, the pain of our injured, the dreams of our children, the strife of our men and women;

Recovered the spirit of our great civilization and our luminous history, for on the banks of the timeless Nile we established the oldest state that has always known the meaning of citizenship and equality, gave humanity the first alphabet, opened the way to monotheism and the knowledge of the Creator, embraced God’s prophets and messages, and adorned the pages of history with parades of creativity;

And in continuation of our virtuous revolution which has unified all Egyptians on the path of building a modern democratic state, we declare our adherence to the following principles:

One —
The people are the source of all authorities. Authorities are instituted by and derive their legitimacy from the people, and are subject to the people’s will. The responsibilities and competencies of authorities are a duty to bear, not a privilege or a source of immunity.

Two —
A democratic system of government, establishing the grounds for peaceful transfer of power, supporting political pluralism, ensuring fair elections and the people’s contribution in the decision-making process.

Three —
The individual’s dignity is an extension of the nation’s dignity. Further, there is no dignity for a country in which women are not honored; women are the sisters of men and partners in all national gains and responsibilities.

Four —
Freedom is a right: freedom of thought, expression and creativity; freedom in housing, property and travel; its principles laid down by the Creator in the motion of the universe and human nature.

Five —

Equality and equal opportunities are established for all citizens, men and women, without discrimination or nepotism or preferential treatment, in both rights and duties.

Six —

The rule of law is the basis of the individual’s freedom, the legitimacy of authority, and the state’s respect of the law. No power shall override that of righteousness, and the judiciary shall be independent, bearer of the honorable mission of defending the Constitution, upholding justice, and preserving rights and freedoms.

Seven —

Upholding national unity is an obligation, and the cornerstone of building a modern Egypt and the path to progress and development. To that end, the values of tolerance and moderation shall be spread, and the rights and freedoms of all citizens shall be protected without discrimination.

Eight —

Defending the nation is a duty and an honor. Our Armed Forces form a professional and neutral national institution that does not interfere in political affairs. It is the protective shield of the country.

Nine —

Security is a great blessing; it falls on the shoulders of a police force which works in the service of the people, for their protection and to enforce the measures of justice. For there can be no justice without protection, and no protection without security institutions that respect the rule of law and human dignity.

Ten —

Unity is the hope of the Arab nation; it is history’s call, the future’s bid, and destiny’s demand. Such unity is to be reinforced through the integration and fraternity with countries of the Nile Valley and of the Muslim world, both a natural extension borne out of the distinctiveness of Egypt’s position on the global map.

Eleven —

Egypt’s pioneering intellectual and cultural leadership is an embodiment of its soft power, and a model of the free generosity of original creators and thinkers, universities, science centers, linguistic and research centers, the press, the arts, literature and mass media, the national church, and Al-Azhar with its history as a mainstay of national identity, the Arabic language and Islamic Sharia, and as a beacon for moderate enlightened thought.

We, the people of Egypt,
Out of faith in God and His heavenly messages,
In recognition of the right of the country and the nation,

With awareness of our responsibilities toward the nation and humanity,

Pledge to stay committed to the principles laid out in this Constitution, which we accept and grant to ourselves, affirming our determination to uphold and defend it, and asserting that it shall be protected and respected by the State’s authorities and the general public.
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Article 2
Islam is the religion of the state and Arabic its official language. Principles of Islamic Sharia are the principal source of legislation.


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Article 219
The principles of Islamic Sharia include general evidence, foundational rules, rules of jurisprudence, and credible sources accepted in Sunni doctrines and by the larger community.

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Democracy in action... Minus separation of church and state.

 

[yllus]

Polls indicate that a slim majority of Egyptians do in fact want Sharia. It's up to them to realize if it's a blessing or a curse.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Polls indicate that a slim majority of Egyptians do in fact want Sharia. It's up to them to realize if it's a blessing or a curse.

That was hardly up to them to put this forward, was it? A "democratic" dictator seized power with his party to provide one option and one only.

Oh well, that's not unlike us here in the US. We just have a duopoly posing as a democracy. We can pick anyone we like as long as they are party approved. That the theoretical option to have someone else take charge exists is meaningless. You'll never see a third party candidate come to power as things are now. Our whole system of government is a farce in the sense that we didn't pick a person for President or Representative or Senator, but rather a party. They in turn subvert the intent of the separation of powers for their agenda. Checks and balances? Really? No.

 

[IronWing]

That constitution needs some more thought. The church/state and sharia issues aside that thing is more of a list of aspirations than a constitution for running a government. It would be like the US trying to govern from the Declaration of Independence. The enumerated rights are so muddied as to be unimplementable. I also wonder how Egypt's neighbors feel about the expansionist assertions enshrined in the document.

 

[Moonbeam]

That was hardly up to them to put this forward, was it? A "democratic" dictator seized power with his party to provide one option and one only.

Oh well, that's not unlike us here in the US. We just have a duopoly posing as a democracy. We can pick anyone we like as long as they are party approved. That the theoretical option to have someone else take charge exists is meaningless. You'll never see a third party candidate come to power as things are now. Our whole system of government is a farce in the sense that we didn't pick a person for President or Representative or Senator, but rather a party. They in turn subvert the intent of the separation of powers for their agenda. Checks and balances? Really? No.

And yet didn't Egypt just go from dictatorship to this? Didn't they just go from having a dictator to elections? Did the dictator agree to that? Didn't we just see the theoretically impossible just happen?

 

[DCal430]

Polls indicate that a slim majority of Egyptians do in fact want Sharia. It's up to them to realize if it's a blessing or a curse.

If the majority wanted to execute homosexuals that doesn't make it right. This represents tyranniy against those who are not Muslim.

 

[yllus]

That was hardly up to them to put this forward, was it? A "democratic" dictator seized power with his party to provide one option and one only.

Oh well, that's not unlike us here in the US. We just have a duopoly posing as a democracy. We can pick anyone we like as long as they are party approved. That the theoretical option to have someone else take charge exists is meaningless. You'll never see a third party candidate come to power as things are now. Our whole system of government is a farce in the sense that we didn't pick a person for President or Representative or Senator, but rather a party. They in turn subvert the intent of the separation of powers for their agenda. Checks and balances? Really? No.

No, they had options, they just willingly elected the one option that will likely take away the others. Afterwards, they then willingly ratified their new constitution (though some polling irregularities have been reported). It is wholly on them now.

If the majority wanted to execute homosexuals that doesn't make it right. This represents tyranny against those who are not Muslim.

We don't know what shape Sharia will take in Egypt. Tyranny has yet to occur.

As an atheist I find any mention of religion in government distasteful, but I also recognize that religion does not necessarily equate to evil. This could work. It probably won't, but there's no place in us in this process outside of warning them they're making a mistake.

 

[polarmystery]

I really hope the progress of science outpaces the promulgation of religious fanaticism, preferably in the form of alien takeover.

 

[DCal430]

No, they had options, they just willingly elected the one option that will likely take away the others. Afterwards, they then willingly ratified their new constitution (though some polling irregularities have been reported). It is wholly on them now.



We don't know what shape Sharia will take in Egypt. Tyranny has yet to occur.

As an atheist I find any mention of religion in government distasteful, but I also recognize that religion does not necessarily equate to evil. This could work. It probably won't, but there's no place in us in this process outside of warning them they're making a mistake.

The majority that wants sharia law also says it wants to execute those who leave islam. So there is a good chance it won't be good.

 

[OutHouse]

wow what a shitty constitution.

 

[v-600]

The BBC has quite a good article comparing the two constitutions here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20555478

I can also add that as someone living in Cairo, most of the people I work with are not pro enforcing Sharia on others. Many Muslims here see Sharia as a personal law that you follow because its gods will, not because the state says to. Also the news seems to be making the protests here seem far worse than they are. Personally I've not seen any of it, and my colleague said all they had seen was an APC parked near the police by a polling station.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

No, they had options, they just willingly elected the one option that will likely take away the others. Afterwards, they then willingly ratified their new constitution (though some polling irregularities have been reported). It is wholly on them now.



We don't know what shape Sharia will take in Egypt. Tyranny has yet to occur.

As an atheist I find any mention of religion in government distasteful, but I also recognize that religion does not necessarily equate to evil. This could work. It probably won't, but there's no place in us in this process outside of warning them they're making a mistake.

So the Muslim Brotherhood and Morsi didn't seize power and put forward the sole choice in Constitutions? Why isn't that news?

 

[EagleKeeper]

The BBC has quite a good article comparing the two constitutions here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20555478

I can also add that as someone living in Cairo, most of the people I work with are not pro enforcing Sharia on others. Many Muslims here see Sharia as a personal law that you follow because its gods will, not because the state says to. Also the news seems to be making the protests here seem far worse than they are. Personally I've not seen any of it, and my colleague said all they had seen was an APC parked near the police by a polling station.

Once the power to enforce is handed to the police; it will be enforced.

There will be "agents" out looking for offenders to report

 

[yllus]

So the Muslim Brotherhood and Morsi didn't seize power and put forward the sole choice in Constitutions? Why isn't that news?

I guess because it probably sells more papers (an outdated saying at this point) to say they stole it? Fact of the matter is they received a plurality of the vote in both the general election and these constitutional referendums. The people didn't want Mubarak, but they don't seem to want the Western flavour of democracy either.

The constitutional committee that draw up what was voted upon was a 100-member assembly formed at least a year ago. A number of secular or non-Muslim members did withdraw from the assembly in protest, which if anything is going to lead to a situation like in Venezuela when opposition parties to Hugo Chavez boycotted a major election. That sure worked wonders.

 

[CPA]

Arab Spring! Yeah!
Muslim Brotherhood! Yeah!

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I guess because it probably sells more papers (an outdated saying at this point) to say they stole it? Fact of the matter is they received a plurality of the vote in both the general election and these constitutional referendums. The people didn't want Mubarak, but they don't seem to want the Western flavour of democracy either.

The constitutional committee that draw up what was voted upon was a 100-member assembly formed at least a year ago. A number of secular or non-Muslim members did withdraw from the assembly in protest, which if anything is going to lead to a situation like in Venezuela when opposition parties to Hugo Chavez boycotted a major election. That sure worked wonders.

I still want to know how voting a candidate into office without saying he intends to seize power without announcing that intent constitutes any form of democracy. If Obama or Bush locked up the SCOTUS and Congress, would that be Democracy in action because they won the election? This isn't slippery slope, it's being pushed off the Grand Canyon wall.

 

[yllus]

I still want to know how voting a candidate into office without saying he intends to seize power without announcing that intent constitutes any form of democracy. If Obama or Bush locked up the SCOTUS and Congress, would that be Democracy in action because they won the election? This isn't slippery slope, it's being pushed off the Grand Canyon wall.

I didn't quite capture what you tried to say above (I think you used "without" in one too many places). But if you are stating that the judiciary is in Morsi's pocket you could not be more mistaken.

Ultimately, the facts are:

- A slim majority of voters supported the Muslim Brotherhood, both in the general election and in this constitutional vote.

- Those voters knew that electing Morsi meant that he and MB would have the lead role in creating a new Egyptian constitution, and thus in shaping the role of democracy in Egypt's future.

- We have no right to second-guess their choices, good or bad. Actually to be more accurate we can second-guess them all we want as long as we do it on the sidelines.

Personally I'm treating this as a political experiment writ large, just like how I watched Venezuela under Chavez. Maybe after making every mistake in the book they'll come around.

 

[Fern]

That constitution needs some more thought. The church/state and sharia issues aside that thing is more of a list of aspirations than a constitution for running a government. It would be like the US trying to govern from the Declaration of Independence. The enumerated rights are so muddied as to be unimplementable. I also wonder how Egypt's neighbors feel about the expansionist assertions enshrined in the document.

Yeah, I thought the same thing. Very vague. (I didn't see the expansionist part, though.)

Then I saw the Sharia Article at the bottom and thought "well, that negates everything said above". E.g., "freedom of expression" and Sharia law just don't work together. I also wonder just who gets decide how Sharia law is interpreted. The people? Or a few Mullahs? Sounds like a concentration of power in the hands of a few who likely aren't even elected.

I don't see this working out well. Vague language with Sharia law overpowering all else seems perfect for an Islamic dictator or oligarchical group of Mullahs.

Fern

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I didn't quite capture what you tried to say above (I think you used "without" in one too many places). But if you are stating that the judiciary is in Morsi's pocket you could not be more mistaken.

Ultimately, the facts are:

- A slim majority of voters supported the Muslim Brotherhood, both in the general election and in this constitutional vote.

- Those voters knew that electing Morsi meant that he and MB would have the lead role in creating a new Egyptian constitution, and thus in shaping the role of democracy in Egypt's future.

- We have no right to second-guess their choices, good or bad. Actually to be more accurate we can second-guess them all we want as long as we do it on the sidelines.

Personally I'm treating this as a political experiment writ large, just like how I watched Venezuela under Chavez. Maybe after making every mistake in the book they'll come around.

You weren't aware that Morsi seized power and voided any opposition to his decisions? That he usurped the powers of their judiciary, that he himself decided what powers he had invested in his office? You know that the Egyptians knew that all other revolutionary influences would be sidelined? This was known in advance?

Where was this in Morsi's platform, that the MB would be the sole power in government, usurping all other branches and ideologies? Everyone else definitely missed that including those who participated in the revolution along with the MB.

You seem to miss that "they" aren't the Egyptians, "they" are the MB, and all laws and power are theirs. You might as well say Iran is a democracy when the mullahs only allow those who support them to run, or the Communist party in the USSR, who required everyone vote for Stalin and others like him because there was no allowed opposition?

Maybe Stalin was elected, but that't hardly a democracy.

 

[peonyu]

Get ready for a huge exodus of Coptic Christians from Egypt, other Arab-Muslim nations forced out their religious minorities via oppression now its Egypt's turn. The Arab Spring was a massive success obviously..

 

[SaurusX]

My gut feeling is that a non-majority of democratic acitivists are seemingly able to force out these arab despots. The dictator still probably had the tacit support of the true passive majority, but when you lose control of the army you're done. After the big-bad is out of power, in swoops something just as onerous, which claims to have the support of God. The passive herd, being the backward ignoramouses that they are, is completely snookered and votes it into power the one time they get the chance. Sad.