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Educational vouchers as an effective incentive for schools to perform better?

yhelothar

yhelothar

Lifer
According to this documentary by John Stossl, Belgium provides educational vouchers so that parents can choose whatever school they want to send their kids to. That gives the schools incentives to do well otherwise no one would want to send their kids there. In contrast, in America, you are forced to go to the school of the district you reside in, or pay large sums of money for private/home schooling.

NCLB provides some incentive for schools to do well by using standardized testing scores as a basis for funding in schools, but that restricts schools' performance incentive to a narrow aspect of education: doing well on the test which may or may not require good education.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx4pN-aiofw

Also it seems like while many are concerned with the cutbacks Ron Paul is setting with his proposal to remove the Department of Education, his plan is to provide educational vouchers so parents can choose whatever school to send their kids to. That sounds like win to me.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul132.html
 
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Ron Paul is a win all around. People say "I really like him, but he can't get elected, so I'm going to vote for the asshole". Then they whine when they get the government they voted for... Voting for someone you don't really believe in is selling the country out, and a perversion of the system. Vote for who you think's best, not who you think will get elected, and let other people do their jobs also. The perpetual motion machine of fail we have now is flushing the country down the toilet :^S
 
So, you're saying there's one primary reason that schools in Belgium do better than schools in the U.S. and that reason is vouchers? Do Belgian schools have problems with one parent households where the parent is working 2nd shift, leaving teens completely unsupervised after school? Gangs? Drugs? Parents who don't care?

In the U.S., you can see that some of the limited success of magnet schools is exactly because those types of students aren't included in the data - they're left behind in their "failing schools." And, I believe that those problem students do distract the better students from learning when both are present in the same classroom.

But, vouchers aren't going to solve the problem in US schools. There are a lot of other countries that also perform better than the US AND better than Belgium. Can we not say "Well, country X doesn't use vouchers, and Belgium does use vouchers, so this is the reason that country X performs better than Belgium?" Seems like a bit of a logical problem there. I'd watch the video, and Stossel's videos are pretty decent to watch - but unless you're well educated in the particular area that he's reporting on, you don't realize how biased many of his videos are.
 
her209 said:
Won't the "rich" people get upset when their kids' schools are overrun with "poor" kids?
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There's a big "DUHHHH" to this argument. When the poor kids get those vouchers -AND the rich kids get those very same vouchers, the private school that those rich kids go to gets to raise its tuition. Supply and demand! The rich families pay the same amount out of pocket. Maybe the even pay a little bit less, but the poor families still can't afford to go to the rich schools - unless the student is very bright (or has something else to bring to the rich school - exceptional athletic ability, exceptional musical ability, etc.) and gets a scholarship. i.e. tuition currently = $8000. Now everyone gets an $8000 voucher. New tuition at private school = $15,000; poor kids with vouchers are in the same situation.

Running your own private school 101: don't let the behavior problem kids in. Don't let in the kids with IEPs that require a 1 on 1 aide. Don't let the kids in with a lot of other accommodations - tests read, extended time on tests, etc. That minimizes your costs & you can point out how much cheaper you are, compared to the public schools.
 
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Dr. Pizza: You make some good points, that's part of the reason why I created this thread, to gather more perspectives than I could get from watching a single documentary. However, while I'm certain that there are more factors to a better education in Belgium than just educational vouchers, the principle behind it makes a lot of sense - it's an incentive scheme for schools to do well where lack of choice highly restricts it.

That's the driving force behind why I feel convinced of this and not a simple correlation that Belgium has educational vouchers and US does not, and hence the educational vouchers is the culprit.
 
astroidea said:
How Belgium ranks so far ahead of the US in education: Educational vouchers.

According to this documentary by John Stossl, Belgium provides educational vouchers so that parents can choose whatever school they want to send their kids to. That gives the schools incentives to do well otherwise no one would want to send their kids there. In contrast, in America, you are forced to go to the school of the district you reside in, or pay large sums of money for private/home schooling.

NCLB provides some incentive for schools to do well by using standardized testing scores as a basis for funding in schools, but that restricts schools' performance incentive to a narrow aspect of education: doing well on the test which may or may not require good education.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx4pN-aiofw

Also it seems like while many are concerned with the cutbacks Ron Paul is setting with his proposal to remove the Department of Education, his plan is to provide educational vouchers so parents can choose whatever school to send their kids to. That sounds like win to me.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul132.html
Click to expand...

Pretty meaningless, how about Finland, Germany, Norway all which rank higher than Belgium and do not have voucher systems? Vouchers as a gauge of educational ranking taken alone mean little of anything. Its the entire education system as a whole that needs to be judged.
 
DrPizza said:
There's a big "DUHHHH" to this argument. When the poor kids get those vouchers -AND the rich kids get those very same vouchers, the private school that those rich kids go to gets to raise its tuition. Supply and demand! The rich families pay the same amount of pocket. The poor families still can't afford to go to the rich schools - unless the student is very bright (or has something else to bring to the rich school - exceptional athletic ability, exceptional musical ability, etc.) and gets a scholarship.

Running your own private school 101: don't let the behavior problem kids in. Don't let in the kids with IEPs that require a 1 on 1 aide. Don't let the kids in with a lot of other accommodations - tests read, extended time on tests, etc. That minimizes your costs & you can point out how much cheaper you are, compared to the public schools.
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So it will eventually turn into what we have with the private and public universities now in the US. The well off kids can go because they have good enough grades and can afford to go to the expensive private schools. The bright but poor kids can go because they get a scholarship that pays their way. But since there will always be more bright kids than scholarships, what happens to the kids who can't afford it? Will the government step in a provide financial aid in the form of grants and student loans?

Will there be resentment in terms against these "elitist" institutions because their kids couldn't get in or couldn't afford it?

:hmm:
 
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DrPizza said:
There's a big "DUHHHH" to this argument. When the poor kids get those vouchers -AND the rich kids get those very same vouchers, the private school that those rich kids go to gets to raise its tuition. Supply and demand! The rich families pay the same amount out of pocket. Maybe the even pay a little bit less, but the poor families still can't afford to go to the rich schools - unless the student is very bright (or has something else to bring to the rich school - exceptional athletic ability, exceptional musical ability, etc.) and gets a scholarship. i.e. tuition currently = $8000. Now everyone gets an $8000 voucher. New tuition at private school = $15,000; poor kids with vouchers are in the same situation.

Running your own private school 101: don't let the behavior problem kids in. Don't let in the kids with IEPs that require a 1 on 1 aide. Don't let the kids in with a lot of other accommodations - tests read, extended time on tests, etc. That minimizes your costs & you can point out how much cheaper you are, compared to the public schools.
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That sounds about the same as the situation now. Rich neighborhoods means the kids going to the schools of that neighborhood are all rich kids.
However, the voucher program would still serve as a strong incentive for the poorer schools to do better.
 
Sorry, but THIS is why Belgium and most European and Asian countries rank ahead of the US in education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Belgium

I get so tired of people blathering on about DOE or vouchers or this trash and that trash when they don't even understand how education works in many other countries. Having been a foreign exchange student in Germany for 3 months and then going back and staying with the same family for another 3 months, I have first hand knowledge of their system. I saw how the oldest son, my friend, was groomed for the Universitat in the Gymnasium while the younger one was placed into the Realschule. One is now a lawyer, the other an EMT.

On one hand this system is more efficient, it allows for a seemingly more efficient way of allocating resources. After all, why provide a college bound education to a technical bound student? However, it creates a caste system and doesn't allow people to move between jobs, entering into a higher level position in the future. Of course this system doesn't totally perpetuate itself for further generations but it does create a mindset. Further, it DOES create a system where pedigree becomes far more important. This situation is exacerbated by generational higher-ed situation which stymies generational improvement at the lower levels.

So really, if you want to overall the system, put that one in place and get rid of the system we have now. However, it goes against everything this country was founded on.

/thread.
 
^This.

The American system is set up to give people chances (GED, adult students, etc), Europe/Asia is about efficiency (tracks and differentiation from an early age).

Can we also implement their university tuition system too? Their tuition caps out at $600USD.
 
DrPizza said:
Running your own private school 101: don't let the behavior problem kids in. Don't let in the kids with IEPs that require a 1 on 1 aide. Don't let the kids in with a lot of other accommodations - tests read, extended time on tests, etc. That minimizes your costs & you can point out how much cheaper you are, compared to the public schools.
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Ours does this as well as state that they don't cater to the exceptional. Suites me fine. Take an average kid (with a concerned parent(s)), 15 to a class, spend 95% of the time teaching instead of 70% handling discipline problems and they will do well. $5K per year is a bargain, imo. I'd take a voucher if offered but it's not a deciding factor.
 
Alright, it looks like I jumped the gun on this one. I did sense that there would be far more to this story than I was just exposed to in the documentary, and should have worded my OP accordingly. However, it still makes a whole lot of sense in principle and would still seem to be an improvement despite it not perhaps being the root cause of many European educations being more effective than US ones.
 
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her209 said:
So it will eventually turn into what we have with the private and public universities now in the US. The well off kids can go because they have good enough grades and can afford to go to the expensive private schools. The bright but poor kids can go because they get a scholarship that pays their way. But since there will always be more bright kids than scholarships, what happens to the kids who can't afford it? Will the government step in a provide financial aid in the form of grants and student loans?

Will there be resentment in terms against these "elitist" institutions because their kids couldn't get in or couldn't afford it?

:hmm:
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Not quite - in order for this to be like that situation, you would have to force public universities to accept 100% of applicants. You'd have to hold public universities accountable for their graduation rates. You'd have to hold public universities accountable for teaching 100% of their students - many of whom wouldn't want to be there, would be disruptive in classes, etc.
 
I believe charter schools are an even better option than vouchers. Vouchers only allow a few underprivileged kids to attend while a charter school is open to anyone in the public. Seats however need to be lottoed, but that has a bigger impact than a few vouchers. In our 'smallish' city of 60k we have 2 charter schools, with another opening next fall. Total enrollment will be roughly 1000 kids. I can't see the local private (religious) schools having nearly the impact.
 
DrPizza said:
There's a big "DUHHHH" to this argument. When the poor kids get those vouchers -AND the rich kids get those very same vouchers, the private school that those rich kids go to gets to raise its tuition. Supply and demand! The rich families pay the same amount out of pocket. Maybe the even pay a little bit less, but the poor families still can't afford to go to the rich schools - unless the student is very bright (or has something else to bring to the rich school - exceptional athletic ability, exceptional musical ability, etc.) and gets a scholarship. i.e. tuition currently = $8000. Now everyone gets an $8000 voucher. New tuition at private school = $15,000; poor kids with vouchers are in the same situation.

Running your own private school 101: don't let the behavior problem kids in. Don't let in the kids with IEPs that require a 1 on 1 aide. Don't let the kids in with a lot of other accommodations - tests read, extended time on tests, etc. That minimizes your costs & you can point out how much cheaper you are, compared to the public schools.
Click to expand...

That's why in real life if there is an inefficiency, new players come in to the market and set up new schools. Stop thinking like a public school teacher and get your head out of the sandbox.
 
DrPizza said:
Not quite - in order for this to be like that situation, you would have to force public universities to accept 100% of applicants. You'd have to hold public universities accountable for their graduation rates. You'd have to hold public universities accountable for teaching 100% of their students - many of whom wouldn't want to be there, would be disruptive in classes, etc.
Click to expand...
Aren't community colleges required to accept everyone if they have a high school diploma or GED?
 
DrPizza said:
There's a big "DUHHHH" to this argument. When the poor kids get those vouchers -AND the rich kids get those very same vouchers, the private school that those rich kids go to gets to raise its tuition. Supply and demand! The rich families pay the same amount out of pocket. Maybe the even pay a little bit less, but the poor families still can't afford to go to the rich schools - unless the student is very bright (or has something else to bring to the rich school - exceptional athletic ability, exceptional musical ability, etc.) and gets a scholarship. i.e. tuition currently = $8000. Now everyone gets an $8000 voucher. New tuition at private school = $15,000; poor kids with vouchers are in the same situation.

Running your own private school 101: don't let the behavior problem kids in. Don't let in the kids with IEPs that require a 1 on 1 aide. Don't let the kids in with a lot of other accommodations - tests read, extended time on tests, etc. That minimizes your costs & you can point out how much cheaper you are, compared to the public schools.
Click to expand...

The point is We THe people should have a choice were are kids go to school . It promotes Better teachers and doing excellance at teaching . This system Now is full of lose . Many many teachers are unfit to teach but cann't be fired same as any union shop were unproductive worker is protected. Did you even watch the video? Watch how the teachers unions work . Watch the ding dang video
 
lxskllr said:
Ron Paul is a win all around. People say "I really like him, but he can't get elected, so I'm going to vote for the asshole". Then they whine when they get the government they voted for... Voting for someone you don't really believe in is selling the country out, and a perversion of the system. Vote for who you think's best, not who you think will get elected, and let other people do their jobs also. The perpetual motion machine of fail we have now is flushing the country down the toilet :^S
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Bravo! Very well said, whether that candidate be Ron Paul or someone else. If nothing else, voting out of the mainstream will have another benefit in the future. If you typical mainstream D or R douchebag sees Independents or candidates like Ron Paul (the type of candidates that traditionally would never win) getting more and more votes each election, that might lead to some change as well. In other words, building a trend election to election of these candidates getting more and more votes will want the D's and R's to fix that before the scales are tipped.

I did not write that very well, but you get the point hopefully.
 
Vouchers aren't a good idea because they're paid for by the tax payer. Tax deductions and maybe a little in tax credits are a good idea though.
 
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