Educational Politics

[RabidMongoose]

What's 'Engineering Physics' anyways? Those schools ranked 5-10 aren't very elite schools.

Stunt, what's the overall ranking like? Can you post the list or link to it?

 

[Stunt]

You said that $44,000 was too much to pay for public school.

I corrected you by saying my school costs $6,000 a year in US funds. (the 44 figure was for everything a student needs for a span of 4 years.)

The point of posting the report was to show that our school system is just as competitive as US schools, as ranked by americans.

Those were my only points. Argue as much as you want about how great your private schools are, but this is how your system is ranked my this report.

Also i have seen other reports with similar results. This is all that is available...if you don't agree with it, it is too bad as you seem to be an expert on internaltional institutions and the quality of their programs.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Stunt
You said that $44,000 was too much to pay for public school.

I corrected you by saying my school costs $6,000 a year in US funds. (the 44 figure was for everything a student needs for a span of 4 years.)

The point of posting the report was to show that our school system is just as competitive as US schools, as ranked by americans.

Those were my only points. Argue as much as you want about how great your private schools are, but this is how your system is ranked my this report.

Also i have seen other reports with similar results. This is all that is available...if you don't agree with it, it is too bad as you seem to be an expert on internaltional institutions and the quality of their programs.

ugh, I never argued about the competitiveness of Canadian schools. I believe they're on par with the US. Stop being so defensive. I don't even know why you're so offended, I just said $44k for public schools in the US may possibly be pretty expensive. Fine then, here's an EU commissioned study of worldwide academic institutions. how north american universities rank

 

[Stunt]

again, i think the per program basis is more accurate as an analysis tool.
There are a lot of different ranking out there...
Here's another...
The ranking released by Oxford -Published in the London Times (in term of international academics and prestige):
1)Harvard (US)
2)Princeton (US)
3)Yale (US)
4)Stanford (US)
5)Chicago (US)
6)Oxford (UK)
7)Cambridge (UK)
8)Sorbonne (France)
9)Heidelberg (Germany)
10)McGill (Canada)

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Stunt
again, i think the per program basis is more accurate as an analysis tool.
There are a lot of different ranking out there...
Here's another...
The ranking released by Oxford -Published in the London Times (in term of international academics and prestige):
1)Harvard (US)
2)Princeton (US)
3)Yale (US)
4)Stanford (US)
5)Chicago (US)
6)Oxford (UK)
7)Cambridge (UK)
8)Sorbonne (France)
9)Heidelberg (Germany)
10)McGill (Canada)

Well like you said yourself too bad you're not an expert on internaltional institutions and the quality of their programs. I don't even know why you brought this whole topic up, but let's just forget about it.

All I ever said was that $44k might be very expensive for a US public school. Private schools have the quotes of 30-40k.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Stunt
Also, remember that these are for selected programs. Overall U of T at number 23 is low i think, but even if true, it is the average of all offered programs.
That's why you much look at a per program basis. It is very well knownt that different institution are better in different areas.
ie. you wouldnt go to MIT for english.

Stunt, if you follow your report, then the most elite of Canadian schools isn't even on the same level as the most elite of US schools in an overall sense. University of Toronto is a great school (hell, one of my graduate classmates is from there), but a ranking of 23 is vastly different than a top 10 ranking. A school such as Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, etc. would be considered much better by myself and on a much higher tier than a school ranked 20-30. I went to a school ranked around 18th in the US and it was vastly different (inferior) than a top 10 school in the quality of the school and students there, IMO.

In addition, if Queens isn't a top school, then I wouldn't really consider it 'Ivy League' at all. I believe that most of the Ivy League schools are generally ranked in the top 15. This isn't meant to be an insult at all, just to let you know what the Ivy League schools are like.

That being said, there are great Canadian universities and it seems that these schools are significantly cheaper than the elite private schools in the US.

However, it seems that some of the US public schools are about the same or even less in tuition as your school. GA Tech - $3444 in state tuition, Illinois = $5226 tuition, University of WA = $4458 in state tuition, etc. However, these are for in-state costs...that means that it is significantly more expensive if you are from another state. Canada is probably better if it doesn't matter on the province in which you are located in!

Canadians schools are good AND are a bargain!

 

[Stunt]

Engineering Physis is a very large umbrella which covers a lot of different studies...

My school has it as a base program in which you can choose one of four specializations within.
Electrical, Materials, Mechanical, Computing.

Core courses (specialization courses on top):

ELEC 221 Electric Circuits
MATH 227 Vector Analysis
MATH 237 Differential Equations and Computer Methods
PHYS 225 Mechanics
PHYS 252 Management of Experimental Data
MATH 228 Complex Analysis
PHYS 211 Applied Physics
PHYS 231 Engineering Electricity and Magnetism
PHYS 274 Thermodynamics
MATH 334 Methods of Applied Mathematics I
PHYS 335 Semiconductor Physics
PHYS 342 Relativity and Quanta
PHYS 332 Electromagnetic Theory
PHYS 343 Wave Mechanics
PHYS 424 Quantum Mechanics I
PHYS 480 Solid State Physics
PHYS 490 Nuclear Physics
PHYS 321 Advanced Mechanics
PHYS 422 Fluid Mechanics
PHYS 460 Laser Optics
PHYS 491 Physics of Nuclear Reactors

gives you an idea of what the program covers.

 

[Stunt]

The rankings, again, change with respect to program.
The ivy league schools are a comparison of law/doctorate and sometimes commerce degrees.
The person that found out that Queen's was ivy league found that out from some documentation in the US we do not use that term in canada.

The top ten rankings are for certain programs...such as electrial engineering.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Stunt
The rankings, again, change with respect to program.
The ivy league schools are a comparison of law/doctorate and sometimes commerce degrees.
The person that found out that Queen's was ivy league found that out from some documentation in the US we do not use that term in canada.

The top ten rankings are for certain programs...such as electrial engineering.

Yes, but I was referring to the overall rankings of the entire schools. If you follow the report that you referenced, then the elite of Canadians schools are not on the same level as the elite of US schools in an overall sense.

I'm not understanding what you're talking about with 'ivy league schools are a comparison of law/doctorate and sometimes commerce degrees'. Ivy League is just a name of a group of schools. It doesn't depend on any ranking, but all of these schools are elite in the sense of their ranking.

 

[chess9]

Stunt:

Thanks for the information!

Apparently, McGill accepts the SAT, SATII and AP exam results. My daughter is a straight A French student (both her parents speak French) and Congre' winner two years in a row, so Montreal would be a nice fit from that perspective. I don't have their web site open now, but I seem to recall that for foreign students McGill is around $35K or so, which is pretty steep. Unless she does really well on the SAT exams I don't see her making the grade. (Oddly, her math scores are always high but her language scores are only modest.)

In talking with admissions' offices (I've spoken with 8 so far.) I'm getting a picture of a very competitive admissions process that is possibly skewed by the grading practices of some schools. The admissions people are saying that all Valedictorians, for instance, don't get accepted to Brandeis or Georgetown (for example) because some of the valedictorians wouldn't have finished in the top 10 percent in Shaker Heights, Bethesda, or Westchester County, to name a few school systems. My daughter will be NHS and top 10 percent in a very tough curriculum though. She was also a Duke TIP scholar as a 7th grader, FWIW.

Her Chinese boyfriend is a Sophomore Chemistry (?) major at the University of Toronto, so he's pressing her to move up there. My wife would have a cow, though. 🙂

I love Canada and Canadians. They are soooooo easy to blame. 🙂

-Robert

 

[chess9]

By the way, I'm not overly impressed with rankings, though I may have come across that way. Among the top 100 schools in North America there is a lot of DEPTH. Almost any of those schools, including Cal Tech, would be wonderful choices. For technical schools I'd say MIT, Cal Tech, Rennsalear, maybe the U.S. Naval Academy/Air/Army, possibly Georgia Tech, Clemson, and certainly North Carolina State are awesome. Anand doesn't seem to be wanting now does he? (As a Wake grad, I'll just shake my head diplomatically. 🙂 )

-Robert

 

[Stunt]

Hahaha... Funny stuff...but i must say...it works the other way too 😉

You guys are easy to blame as well.

No problem...🙂...hope your daughter gets into the school she wants to goto...or doesnt for your sake...heh

Montreal is fluently bilingual, they say "bonjour-hi" to you, and if you say hi they will continue in english the same visa versa. Also classes are available in english and french.

I don't speak a word of french and i have no problem speaking pure english when i'm there.

 

[chess9]

Stunt:

"You guys are easy to blame as well."

That hurts because it happens to be true these days.

BUT, we are a loveable bunch. 🙂

-Robert

 

[LordMagnusKain]

Originally posted by: sMiLeYz

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Edge3D
You must understand that President Bush has had to deal with the recession Clinton left us with (thanks, pal

BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!

It's all Clinton's fault!!!



Wow.


And the dot-com bust had nothing to do with it? The fiscal surpluses in the last 4 years of Clinton's term were bad things?

there was no Clinton recession, it's just a flat-out lie

therewas a down-turn that happend at the end of his administration; but as said previously, it's all a matter of market cycles.

Not exactly, Mr. Bias.

Was it a liberal who created a new bureau for homeland security?

Bush initially was against it, but drastic times call for drastic measures. Now the deems say it's 'under funded' just like they say everything is 'under funded', less the military.

Don?t get me wrong, the republicans in the wrong when it comes to things right now? but it?s better than what you see in Canada w/ a vast liberal majority.

 

[Stunt]

I know the ivy league is a group of 8 schools. The first to create the league was Harvard.

But that is when it is used as a noun, as an adjective it is having the traditions of the ivy league...ie. very similar qualities to these elite schools.

Check dictionary.com if you must...

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: chess9
The admissions people are saying that all Valedictorians, for instance, don't get accepted to Brandeis or Georgetown (for example) because some of the valedictorians wouldn't have finished in the top 10 percent in Shaker Heights, Bethesda, or Westchester County, to name a few school systems.
-Robert

Yeah...have you seen the GPA's that high school students now graduate with? It's insane. I went to an excellent high school (probably around 50 students were accepted to top 25 universities...but it was a large school) and it was 'good' to get a 3.8 WEIGHTED GPA! Now I see how everyone is graduating with a 4.4 GPA...that wasn't even possible at my school! I believe that UCLA's average GPA is over 4.0! Talk about high school grade inflation!

 

[SuperTool]

http://www.costofwar.com/index-college-scholarships.html

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Stunt
I know the ivy league is a group of 8 schools. The first to create the league was Harvard.

But that is when it is used as a noun, as an adjective it is having the traditions of the ivy league...ie. very similar qualities to these elite schools.

Check dictionary.com if you must...

Yes, but what I am saying is that if Queens is not even ranked anywhere near the Ivy League schools, then I wouldn't really consider it to be 'Ivy League'.

I mean look at the Ivy League schools:

An association of eight universities and colleges in the northeast United States, comprising Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, Princeton, the University of Pennsylvania, and Yale.

All of these are elite schools and very prestigious. I wouldn't call a university that isn't even ranked in the top 20 and possibly not even in the top 50 as an 'Ivy League' caliber school.

Dictionary.com isn't the final answer for anything. Perhaps you have a much more liberal understanding of what a school has to be to be considered 'Ivy League'...my view is much more strict.

 

[ElKevbo]

Originally posted by: Stunt

What makes a school private?
Because anyone is allowed to apply to any post secondary school in the country.

Mission, funding, and governance are what differs between public and private universities. The adhjectives do not (necessarily) refer to how open or closed the application process is at the different schools.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Stunt
I know the ivy league is a group of 8 schools. The first to create the league was Harvard.

But that is when it is used as a noun, as an adjective it is having the traditions of the ivy league...ie. very similar qualities to these elite schools.

Check dictionary.com if you must...

So, do you believe describing a university as comparable to an Ivy League institution describes the traditions or the academic reputation of the school? I think most people would choose academic reputation over traditions.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: chess9
The admissions people are saying that all Valedictorians, for instance, don't get accepted to Brandeis or Georgetown (for example) because some of the valedictorians wouldn't have finished in the top 10 percent in Shaker Heights, Bethesda, or Westchester County, to name a few school systems.
-Robert

Yeah...have you seen the GPA's that high school students now graduate with? It's insane. I went to an excellent high school (probably around 50 students were accepted to top 25 universities...but it was a large school) and it was 'good' to get a 3.8 WEIGHTED GPA! Now I see how everyone is graduating with a 4.4 GPA...that wasn't even possible at my school! I believe that UCLA's average GPA is over 4.0! Talk about high school grade inflation!

It's not grade inflation. UC's give you an extra point for AP courses. My UC GPA was 4.3 ish, but my high school GPA was 3.8 ish, because I took many AP courses.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: chess9
The admissions people are saying that all Valedictorians, for instance, don't get accepted to Brandeis or Georgetown (for example) because some of the valedictorians wouldn't have finished in the top 10 percent in Shaker Heights, Bethesda, or Westchester County, to name a few school systems.
-Robert

Yeah...have you seen the GPA's that high school students now graduate with? It's insane. I went to an excellent high school (probably around 50 students were accepted to top 25 universities...but it was a large school) and it was 'good' to get a 3.8 WEIGHTED GPA! Now I see how everyone is graduating with a 4.4 GPA...that wasn't even possible at my school! I believe that UCLA's average GPA is over 4.0! Talk about high school grade inflation!

It's not grade inflation. UC's give you an extra point for AP courses. My UC GPA was 4.3 ish, but my high school GPA was 3.8 ish, because I took many AP courses.

Well that's normal.

But I'm talking about how everyone now has over a 4.0 GPA. Some high schools now give 6.0 for an AP course and a 5 for an Honors course.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: chess9
The admissions people are saying that all Valedictorians, for instance, don't get accepted to Brandeis or Georgetown (for example) because some of the valedictorians wouldn't have finished in the top 10 percent in Shaker Heights, Bethesda, or Westchester County, to name a few school systems.
-Robert

Yeah...have you seen the GPA's that high school students now graduate with? It's insane. I went to an excellent high school (probably around 50 students were accepted to top 25 universities...but it was a large school) and it was 'good' to get a 3.8 WEIGHTED GPA! Now I see how everyone is graduating with a 4.4 GPA...that wasn't even possible at my school! I believe that UCLA's average GPA is over 4.0! Talk about high school grade inflation!

It's not grade inflation. UC's give you an extra point for AP courses. My UC GPA was 4.3 ish, but my high school GPA was 3.8 ish, because I took many AP courses.

Well that's normal.

But I'm talking about how everyone now has over a 4.0 GPA. Some high schools now give 6.0 for an AP course and a 5 for an Honors course.

WHOA....6 for an AP course? what school is this 😀
My school gave 5 for AP...but so has every other school where I'ved talked to people.


Besides...remember AP courses also come with the test. If the taecher sucks, everyone gts As to boost their GPA and you get a 1 on the test I doubt they are giong to put much faith in that "a"

And whats wrong with greater competition in college? My unweighted GPA was 4.2 and weighted it was 4.0~~ that just means more people are studying and getting into college becomes harder and harder over time because its so competitive....

you want everyone's GPA to be low or something?

 

[Stunt]

I don't really care if my school is ivy league or not, it is an american term and you rarely hear it here.
All i know is that the program at my school which the person was applying to from the US was told that Queen's is ivy-league in that program.

It differs program to program. It depends on equipment, proffessors, program, information taught, etc.
Just because a school ranks lower overall, it doesnt mean it can't be world class in other areas.

Here for example: Queens, UofT, Waterloo are the best for engoineering, McMaster for health sciences, Carleton for Journalism.

All aren't very hot in their other categories.
And each have their own strengths.

The rankings in eng phys is one example of how well some canadian institutions rank relative to other US schools.

The ivy league reference i believe was in the area of life sciences.
Find those rankings below 50 and i'll be seriously surprised.
They cut people from that program like there is no tomorrow.

They take transfers from other schools, accept 200+ in first year and graduate about 100 a year.
My program accepted 650 into engineering, we have 540 now.

 

[chess9]

Yes, my daughter is taking Honors AP English next year as a Junior. Six points for an A! It's a college level course, so.... Anyway a C is an A. 🙂 She's already carrying 'only" a 4.2 and is ranked about 8-10th in her class. One of her male Korean friends has a 4.4 or so and last we heard was king of the jungle, or that's what we guessed since the counselors won't tell you. 🙂

The Engineering, Science, and Technology magnet schools here are pretty rigorous and the competition is fierce. It is also almost all male, white and Asian, particularly at the top. Very few Hispanics and Blacks. One Indian girl, like my daughter, is very, very strong in math, so they frequently study together. The kids are pretty tight though and it's almost like they don't really think about their cultural differences the way I did as a kid. Skin color in particular has a transparency as an issue that I never thought would be imaginable. Or, at least among this small sub-set of very smart kids. If you had asked me 20 years ago if I thought one of my children would be attracted to a Chinese, I would have found the question itself incomprehensible. But, I am pleased. In some ways, albeit slowly, we are becoming one world.

-Robert