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Education + success = conservative political views?
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Look at economists. They are the educated who analyze the results of social policies the real world. Most of them would be described as "conservative."
A minimum wage sounds good and compassionate. However, the results of this policy are not optimal. As the cost of human labor increases, it becomes more attractive to replace the human with a machine. Since the vast majority of minimum wage earners are new to the work force, this policy reduces the opportunities for new workers to get that first job and develop good work habits and hence move on to better jobs.
Studies have shown that the minimum wage reduces black teenage employment the most.
Welfare is another example of good intentions gone horribly awry. There is certainly a need for a safety net, but if the net is too comfortable, those who are saved by the net never get out of it.
Again, studies have shown that only about 28 cents of each dollar in the welfare program actually makes it to the welfare recipient. This is an extremely inefficient way to administer "compassion."
In general, the government is a massively inefficient middle-man in almost every avenue in which it operates. It distorts the free market and hurts those whom it intends to help. Look at the Indians on reservations. They are the best example of the results when the government gets to control your whole life.
Education and real world experience = conservative or libertarian political views.
P.S. The government's power can kill or incarcerate you. Businesses only have power if they satisfy the wants or needs of a market.
A minimum wage sounds good and compassionate. However, the results of this policy are not optimal. As the cost of human labor increases, it becomes more attractive to replace the human with a machine. Since the vast majority of minimum wage earners are new to the work force, this policy reduces the opportunities for new workers to get that first job and develop good work habits and hence move on to better jobs.
Studies have shown that the minimum wage reduces black teenage employment the most.
Welfare is another example of good intentions gone horribly awry. There is certainly a need for a safety net, but if the net is too comfortable, those who are saved by the net never get out of it.
Again, studies have shown that only about 28 cents of each dollar in the welfare program actually makes it to the welfare recipient. This is an extremely inefficient way to administer "compassion."
In general, the government is a massively inefficient middle-man in almost every avenue in which it operates. It distorts the free market and hurts those whom it intends to help. Look at the Indians on reservations. They are the best example of the results when the government gets to control your whole life.
Education and real world experience = conservative or libertarian political views.
P.S. The government's power can kill or incarcerate you. Businesses only have power if they satisfy the wants or needs of a market.
>>I will stop trying to explain to you that just because someone is a Liberal, they don't have to be a democrat. Or the fact that someone who happens to be Conservative doesn't have to be a republican. It is obvious that you are unable to comprehend it <<
Ko, boy you are good at it... Lie & distort... I never said democrats & liberals were one & the same...
that you are unable to comprehend it
another 'superior' stance, with the inference that Ko has superior intellect.... classic liberal ploy, "I know better than you, because I understand, am smarter, blah blah blah ", yeah, right !!!
Read your own posts... You are the one caught in deception...
You say equality... then you advocate social activism through government action... Which is not equality...
Ko, boy you are good at it... Lie & distort... I never said democrats & liberals were one & the same...
that you are unable to comprehend it
another 'superior' stance, with the inference that Ko has superior intellect.... classic liberal ploy, "I know better than you, because I understand, am smarter, blah blah blah ", yeah, right !!!
Read your own posts... You are the one caught in deception...
You say equality... then you advocate social activism through government action... Which is not equality...
Total Refected Power
Diamond Member
Both my wife and I hold PhD's. We are research scientists. One in academia and one in industry so we have a balanced view of the world. We were more liberal in our college and grad school days but have become more conservative (especially fiscally) over the past five years.
Why? The effort exerted to get to this point was tremendous. College, 5 years of grad school and years of post-doctoral training. Now is the time for us to begin to reap the benefits of that hard work and move on to the next phase of life. We postponed owning a home, having children and a regular "Joe-Sixpack" life for many years. Now, when people want to tell me that I am now "successful" and try to decide for US how much to "give back" I get irate. It was a long hard road and see no reason to be penalized excessively for the fruits of our labor. There are a lot of years to make up for little income and lowered taxes would be beneficial.
Why? The effort exerted to get to this point was tremendous. College, 5 years of grad school and years of post-doctoral training. Now is the time for us to begin to reap the benefits of that hard work and move on to the next phase of life. We postponed owning a home, having children and a regular "Joe-Sixpack" life for many years. Now, when people want to tell me that I am now "successful" and try to decide for US how much to "give back" I get irate. It was a long hard road and see no reason to be penalized excessively for the fruits of our labor. There are a lot of years to make up for little income and lowered taxes would be beneficial.
Double Trouble
Elite Member
This is a very intersting thread with many good points.... I'm shocked!
Thanks all for your contributions .... except if you're an idiot who disagrees with me 😛 Just kidding 🙂
Thanks all for your contributions .... except if you're an idiot who disagrees with me 😛 Just kidding 🙂
Corn
Diamond Member
Pennstate, why must you, time after time, provide utterly misleading "facts" (while continuing to bold them out)?
<< You guys are forgeting to debate the other point. According to the exit polls, the upper class voters voted overwhelmingly for Gore (56% to 39%). It could be argued that the upper class, those who are more successful by reitz's definition, is more liberal minded. >>
CNN exit poll shows that those that make over $100,000 vote 54% to 43% in favor of Bush over Gore. The hard numbers show that those that are actually earning the money voted overwhelmingly for Bush. Obviously the "class" tag is very subjective and the upper-class "majority" seems to either be:
A. Grossly misrepresenting their real "class" status or....
B. Riding on the coat-tails of someone else's income.
I'm of the opinion that the answer is a little of both with the majority being "B". While those that are actually earning the money (and hence are "successful" themselves) seem to have voted for Bush, the "ideological" dependents of the "successful" (who, obviously, are only "successful" by virtue of their dependence upon the real bread winner) voted for Gore.
Hmmmm, now why does it not suprise me that the "upperclass" that voted for Gore apparently didn't, and don't, earn their own income?
<< You guys are forgeting to debate the other point. According to the exit polls, the upper class voters voted overwhelmingly for Gore (56% to 39%). It could be argued that the upper class, those who are more successful by reitz's definition, is more liberal minded. >>
CNN exit poll shows that those that make over $100,000 vote 54% to 43% in favor of Bush over Gore. The hard numbers show that those that are actually earning the money voted overwhelmingly for Bush. Obviously the "class" tag is very subjective and the upper-class "majority" seems to either be:
A. Grossly misrepresenting their real "class" status or....
B. Riding on the coat-tails of someone else's income.
I'm of the opinion that the answer is a little of both with the majority being "B". While those that are actually earning the money (and hence are "successful" themselves) seem to have voted for Bush, the "ideological" dependents of the "successful" (who, obviously, are only "successful" by virtue of their dependence upon the real bread winner) voted for Gore.
Hmmmm, now why does it not suprise me that the "upperclass" that voted for Gore apparently didn't, and don't, earn their own income?
"Ko, boy you are good at it... Lie & distort... I never said democrats & liberals were one & the same...
that you are unable to comprehend it
another 'superior' stance, with the inference that Ko has superior intellect.... classic liberal ploy, "I know better than you, because I understand, am smarter, blah blah blah ", yeah, right !!!
Read your own posts... You are the one caught in deception...
"
Cixm, learn to argue.. you did not back up any of your points with anything substantive😛 That was what you could call a rant.
that you are unable to comprehend it
another 'superior' stance, with the inference that Ko has superior intellect.... classic liberal ploy, "I know better than you, because I understand, am smarter, blah blah blah ", yeah, right !!!
Read your own posts... You are the one caught in deception...
"
Cixm, learn to argue.. you did not back up any of your points with anything substantive😛 That was what you could call a rant.
TRP, you might actually be a liberal...
Now I didn't say a democrat, just that the flat tax proposal is something that both liberals and conservatives (not all, but many) do agree upon.
Well, I hope that after the debt is paid off, that we can get to real tax relief. That would help everybody. The important thing right now (IMO) is to pay off the debt as soon as possible. then turn that 900 billion dollar interest payment into a tax cut (or preferrably, a flat tax) break. Actually, that 900 Billion dollar interest payment would correlate to a tax cut more than twice what Bush is suggesting. Couple that with expected growth between now and 2012, and we could see the high end tax brackets around 20%, whereas the rest would be around 10%. Not bad.
Total Refected Power
Diamond Member
Kosugi:
I am not comfortable with labels. All I know is what I believe in NOW.
Well, I hope that after the debt is paid off, that we can get to real tax relief. That would help everybody. The important thing right now (IMO) is to pay off the debt as soon as possible.
The debt is on pace to be retired by the end of the decade. To pay off any sooner would cost MORE money due to the prepayment penalties of the bonds. Greenspan said as much last week in from of a Senate committee. Faster is not always better. So when can have some tax relief now as well.
I am not comfortable with labels. All I know is what I believe in NOW.
Well, I hope that after the debt is paid off, that we can get to real tax relief. That would help everybody. The important thing right now (IMO) is to pay off the debt as soon as possible.
The debt is on pace to be retired by the end of the decade. To pay off any sooner would cost MORE money due to the prepayment penalties of the bonds. Greenspan said as much last week in from of a Senate committee. Faster is not always better. So when can have some tax relief now as well.
Double Trouble
Elite Member
Greenspan made it clear that any large shift in the debt situation is likely to cause problems -- either a large repayment or an increase in the debt. I tend to agree with that. The best policy is to continue on the current planned track to pay it down, while at the same time giving back as much money as possible to those people that deserve it -- those that made and earned it to begin with.
Total Refected Power
Diamond Member
KO:
I don't like it as an adjective or noun!
I don't like it as an adjective or noun!
Double Trouble
Elite Member
Red, << Case in point. A family here in Arkansas (on welfare) moved to California. Why? Because they could get higher welfare payments there. >>
<Do you actually think anybody would believe this to be true based soley on your assertion that it is? What point where you trying to make by saying something like that and how does it relate to the issue being discussed in this thread?>
Actually, I can back him up on that. I'll do a search on some refs, but I know for a fact several states have struggled with the problem that if they have welfare laws that are substantially better than other states, poor people will migrate to that state. Some states have tried to cope with the problem by making laws to create different levels of welfare/subsidies for recent immigrants to the state, but those laws have subsequently been struck down as unconstitutional in federal courts. It stands to reason that for some people that receive benefits such as welfare would be willing to move if they could receive more benefits elswhere.... hence, we can see motivation in effect -- people are willing to do things to achieve certain 'rewards', whether those rewards are monetary or something else.
<Do you actually think anybody would believe this to be true based soley on your assertion that it is? What point where you trying to make by saying something like that and how does it relate to the issue being discussed in this thread?>
Actually, I can back him up on that. I'll do a search on some refs, but I know for a fact several states have struggled with the problem that if they have welfare laws that are substantially better than other states, poor people will migrate to that state. Some states have tried to cope with the problem by making laws to create different levels of welfare/subsidies for recent immigrants to the state, but those laws have subsequently been struck down as unconstitutional in federal courts. It stands to reason that for some people that receive benefits such as welfare would be willing to move if they could receive more benefits elswhere.... hence, we can see motivation in effect -- people are willing to do things to achieve certain 'rewards', whether those rewards are monetary or something else.
Corn
Diamond Member
Red, please point out any post I've made where I "claimed" I was libertarian? You'll have difficulty, no doubt, in finding any as I am not "libertarian" completely in my views.
Libertarianism in it's truest form is akin to social anarchy. No thanks, I can't swallow that bitter pill. The most foriegn concept of libertarianism is the whole claim of "self ownership"--something which is contrary to the principles (regardless of the deeds at the time) that our country was founded upon.
"Self-ownership" is an ideology that, by it's very definition, implies the right at transfer of ownership to others and in the end justifies indentured servitude and, ultimately, slavery.
Our country was founded upon the belief that all men are "free" and as such, cannot ever be "owned".
There are other ideological differences which the libertarian party espouses that I do not agree with.
I am a registered and active Republican. The Republican party philosophy is much more attractive to me than the alternatives. I don't agree with everything the Republican party represents, IMNSHO it's core ideals are more aligned with what our founding father's envisioned at the dawn of our civilization.
<< You seem to think that you actually have the authority or ability to treat them like "pond scum" where in reality, what you think and how you feel is actually of no consequence to them or anybody else for that matter. >>
Of that there is no doubt Red. But aparently you missed the clearly obvious sarcasm present in my reply to Kosugi's original assertation (and gross generalization without any supporting evidence) that "People like you want to treat people living in poverty like they have a disease." Evidently you are a moron too. 😛
Libertarianism in it's truest form is akin to social anarchy. No thanks, I can't swallow that bitter pill. The most foriegn concept of libertarianism is the whole claim of "self ownership"--something which is contrary to the principles (regardless of the deeds at the time) that our country was founded upon.
"Self-ownership" is an ideology that, by it's very definition, implies the right at transfer of ownership to others and in the end justifies indentured servitude and, ultimately, slavery.
Our country was founded upon the belief that all men are "free" and as such, cannot ever be "owned".
There are other ideological differences which the libertarian party espouses that I do not agree with.
I am a registered and active Republican. The Republican party philosophy is much more attractive to me than the alternatives. I don't agree with everything the Republican party represents, IMNSHO it's core ideals are more aligned with what our founding father's envisioned at the dawn of our civilization.
<< You seem to think that you actually have the authority or ability to treat them like "pond scum" where in reality, what you think and how you feel is actually of no consequence to them or anybody else for that matter. >>
Of that there is no doubt Red. But aparently you missed the clearly obvious sarcasm present in my reply to Kosugi's original assertation (and gross generalization without any supporting evidence) that "People like you want to treat people living in poverty like they have a disease." Evidently you are a moron too. 😛
This is a more complicated question than you think. First of all you lumped together education and success pennstates reaction was appropriate.
In the teenage years most Americans hold, how do we say, idealistic views. They believe hard work gets you what you want, Welfare is stupid, Criminals are criminal's innocents are innocents, and all criminals should be punished hard. Statistically before college conservatives are the great majority.
As time goes on this percentage drops. People begin to fail college, People get sick, People get arrested, People get drafted, People get on welfare, Or some just finally meet people who are fall into these categories; Boom Bamb Bang Idealism gone! It's easy to want to help out the misfortunate if you are or know someone those misfortunate. In college liberals outnumber conservatives.
The exception is of course the successful. Again the motivations are pretty self serving. For most it's unintentional they figure if they didn't need welfare, Medicare, ect then who does? It is natural that conservative politics are linked to the successful they are the ones that conservative programs help out.
In the teenage years most Americans hold, how do we say, idealistic views. They believe hard work gets you what you want, Welfare is stupid, Criminals are criminal's innocents are innocents, and all criminals should be punished hard. Statistically before college conservatives are the great majority.
As time goes on this percentage drops. People begin to fail college, People get sick, People get arrested, People get drafted, People get on welfare, Or some just finally meet people who are fall into these categories; Boom Bamb Bang Idealism gone! It's easy to want to help out the misfortunate if you are or know someone those misfortunate. In college liberals outnumber conservatives.
The exception is of course the successful. Again the motivations are pretty self serving. For most it's unintentional they figure if they didn't need welfare, Medicare, ect then who does? It is natural that conservative politics are linked to the successful they are the ones that conservative programs help out.
Reitz, I would say a lot of the time it's because people who are rich tend to stay rich. With the money comes education and further sucess for the children. Conservatives by nature want to maintain the status quo, which is quite convenient when you are on top ; )
BTW, I would consider myself educated and succesful, and I am certainly not conservative politically. But then again I'm not rich either...
peace,
Ryan
BTW, I would consider myself educated and succesful, and I am certainly not conservative politically. But then again I'm not rich either...
peace,
Ryan
<< just another way to steal, couched in in the guise of humanitarianism. >>
<< Classic liberalism, you take my assets, not yours, & give them to another. You decide the rules of what to do with what I have, What I have worked for. >>
you know what the fact that you feel that you dont have a responsibility to the ppl in your country sickens me. there are ppl that need help, poverty isnt something someone chooses its something that happens.
You had better opportunities than others, richer family, better grades, better family situation but that doesnt mean that you deserve to have an extremely high quality of life when there are ppl in the streets DYING.
when i was in toronto last i saw parametics attending to a homeless person giving her needles and vitamins and general healthcare advice, and you know what i was happy that because a little comes off my paycheque every other week that that woman and ppl like her can have things like that.
you are not better than another person because you have a piece of paper that says you have more money.
*kat. <-- :|
>> when i was in toronto last i saw parametics attending to a homeless person giving her needles <<
damn, I'm glad she is getting needles, of course, needles are cheaper than the drugs she is shooting....
& what the hell does needles for an addict have to do with a person keeping the money made from hard work ?
OH ? she must have had a hard life.... & I notice... eakers did not take her home & give her soup & money out of eakers pocket...
Well, make my foot yellow again... Is it raining ?
damn, I'm glad she is getting needles, of course, needles are cheaper than the drugs she is shooting....
& what the hell does needles for an addict have to do with a person keeping the money made from hard work ?
OH ? she must have had a hard life.... & I notice... eakers did not take her home & give her soup & money out of eakers pocket...
Well, make my foot yellow again... Is it raining ?
oh you know what? its hard to get a job when you dont have a home, no place to shower, no phone no resume.
not to mention the mental illnesses that these some of these ppl have.
you bringing up the fact i didnt take this lady in is obserd.
my point is we all should contribute just a little to make this world a better place.
people are equal no matter what their social level everyone deserves the same basic needs.
oh but thats communism isnt it?
*kat. <-- doesnt understand your rational.
not to mention the mental illnesses that these some of these ppl have.
you bringing up the fact i didnt take this lady in is obserd.
my point is we all should contribute just a little to make this world a better place.
people are equal no matter what their social level everyone deserves the same basic needs.
oh but thats communism isnt it?
*kat. <-- doesnt understand your rational.
Eaks! cxim is a troll!
Dont get baited by him. Don't lower yourself to his level. After all, you are human, and he is salamander. Let the salmanders roll in the slime, but you can live above it.
Crazy thing is that cxim thinks he is right so long as one other person agrees with him. It doesn't matter if that person is a nazi... (Hey cxim, goosestep for me buddy! It just turns me on!)
LOL! Asswipe!
Dont get baited by him. Don't lower yourself to his level. After all, you are human, and he is salamander. Let the salmanders roll in the slime, but you can live above it.
Crazy thing is that cxim thinks he is right so long as one other person agrees with him. It doesn't matter if that person is a nazi... (Hey cxim, goosestep for me buddy! It just turns me on!)
LOL! Asswipe!
Red,
<< Fdiskboy
<< Case in point. A family here in Arkansas (on welfare) moved to California. Why? Because they could get higher welfare payments there. >>
Do you actually think anybody would believe this to be true based soley on your assertion that it is? What point where you trying to make by saying something like that and how does it relate to the issue being discussed in this thread? >>
While he really can't provide any basis for that anecdote, I've seen it happen myself. Right before my sophomore year in high school, Michigan drastically reformed its welfare laws, reducing benefits and requiring recipients to work after a certain amount of time. Pennsylvania (at the time, luckily we've since reformed as well) had the least restrictive welfare laws in the Northeast, and we were hit with an influx of people looking to maintain their *relatively* comfortable lifestyle. Imagine what happens when you enroll 40 kids from inner-city Detroit in a quite, middle class public school...😛 The 'immigration' of freeloaders actually helped fast-track PA's own welfare reforms.
Did Hell freeze over or something? 😉 This is a 70+ post political thread that almost exclusively made up of informed, interesting, and well thought out posts, with no real flame wars.
<< Fdiskboy
<< Case in point. A family here in Arkansas (on welfare) moved to California. Why? Because they could get higher welfare payments there. >>
Do you actually think anybody would believe this to be true based soley on your assertion that it is? What point where you trying to make by saying something like that and how does it relate to the issue being discussed in this thread? >>
While he really can't provide any basis for that anecdote, I've seen it happen myself. Right before my sophomore year in high school, Michigan drastically reformed its welfare laws, reducing benefits and requiring recipients to work after a certain amount of time. Pennsylvania (at the time, luckily we've since reformed as well) had the least restrictive welfare laws in the Northeast, and we were hit with an influx of people looking to maintain their *relatively* comfortable lifestyle. Imagine what happens when you enroll 40 kids from inner-city Detroit in a quite, middle class public school...😛 The 'immigration' of freeloaders actually helped fast-track PA's own welfare reforms.
Did Hell freeze over or something? 😉 This is a 70+ post political thread that almost exclusively made up of informed, interesting, and well thought out posts, with no real flame wars.
Michael
Elite member
Red Dawn - You would be bored to tears if you really had to sit through the whole "corporate welfare" analysis. As much as I'd like to see you cry, I wouldn't subject you to a macro and micro economic discussion of why the US government uses the tax code, customs laws, and other levers to encourage or discourage investment in certain sectors.
The biggest welfare comes from accelerated depreciation (promotes investment in capital eqipment = US jobs), R&D tax credits (high paying, high skill jobs in the US), FSC tax breaks (recently found to be discrimatory by the WTO, but promotes exports), and favourable tax treatment on stock option gains (more money to workers).
Michael
The biggest welfare comes from accelerated depreciation (promotes investment in capital eqipment = US jobs), R&D tax credits (high paying, high skill jobs in the US), FSC tax breaks (recently found to be discrimatory by the WTO, but promotes exports), and favourable tax treatment on stock option gains (more money to workers).
Michael
>> After all, you are human, and he is salamander. Let the salmanders roll in the slime, but you can live above it.<<
>> asswipe <<
Nazi ???
soapscum....
I hope you are a good match for organ transplant, as you seem to have no other positive qualities.
lets see... honesty & equality are Nazi properties... right... sure they are !!!
>> asswipe <<
Nazi ???
soapscum....
I hope you are a good match for organ transplant, as you seem to have no other positive qualities.
lets see... honesty & equality are Nazi properties... right... sure they are !!!
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