Education May Not Be Answer to Outsourcing -- LA Times

[WhipperSnapper]

The LA Times has published an article that questions whether or not education is really the solution to foreign outsourcing and global labor wage arbitrage. Although the article really isn't that amazing, it's encouraging that this was published in a mainstream newspaper. Perhaps the motivation was to go after Bush since it questions Bush's claim that more education is the solution to our unemployment and underemployment problems in the face of global competition. This is one of the few mainstream newspaper articles I've ever read that came so close to hitting the nail on the head. It's almost profound. Let's hope that it's the beginning of a mountain of similar news articles, op-eds, and reports across the country. You can find the article here:

That Good Education Might Not Be Enough

Notable quotes:

"When they don't know what else to do," he remarked, "there's a tendency among politicians to stand up and say 'education.' "

Wow! As I've been saying for a long time, politicians like to use claims that we need more education as the opiate of the masses.

But Bush may face a bigger challenge than defending the dollar amounts his administration directs to higher education. He could soon find himself having to defend what until recently has been almost universally accepted as fact ? that going to college or graduate school is a nearly certain route to higher pay, and a sure protection against the dislocation spawned by global competition.

But, Blinder wrote, the crucial distinction in the future may not be between the more-educated and less-educated, but between "those types of work that are easily deliverable through a wire ? and those that are not."

Some education-heavy jobs such as computer programming are proving easily deliverable by wire and many programming jobs have been shifted overseas, an irony in an era when many had thought that tech-savvy workers would be among the economy's big winners.

Perhaps the reason it was published was not because it deals with the issue of foreign outsourcing, but rather to take a shot at Bush and his education policy. Regardless of the real reason, I'm happy to see it. Let's hope that other newspapers follow suit.

 

[Engineer]

Income gaps between college grads/skilled workers shrinking compared to those that are not.

But remember, we moved from farms to the industries and all was good so we'll move to technology as we "offshore" manufacturing and other high skilled jobs. We'll be just fine...a service job away from a great future.

 

[homercles337]

As a grossly underpaid Phd starting work in a post meant for an individual with a Bachelor's this stuff is true and bushies should listen up. No one is safe from offshoring under this administration. Sure, now its MS, Intel, nVidia, etc that are setting up camp in India and China with NO penalties and paying folks $2/day. Soon it will be you--mark these words.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: homercles337
As a grossly underpaid Phd starting work in a post meant for an individual with a Bachelor's this stuff is true and bushies should listen up. No one is safe from offshoring under this administration. Sure, now its MS, Intel, nVidia, etc that are setting up camp in India and China with NO penalties and paying folks $2/day. Soon it will be you--mark these words.

There is a point where theoretical teachings become a huge negative when applying to real world practical know-how.

Higher education is important, but only as a tool to help with the application. Without application, you are useless.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: Engineer
Income gaps between college grads/skilled workers shrinking compared to those that are not.

But remember, we moved from farms to the industries and all was good so we'll move to technology as we "offshore" manufacturing and other high skilled jobs. We'll be just fine...a service job away from a great future.

College grads are still paid 80% higher than unskilled workers. This is better than 1990!

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: homercles337
As a grossly underpaid Phd starting work in a post meant for an individual with a Bachelor's this stuff is true and bushies should listen up. No one is safe from offshoring under this administration. Sure, now its MS, Intel, nVidia, etc that are setting up camp in India and China with NO penalties and paying folks $2/day. Soon it will be you--mark these words.

There is a point where theoretical teachings become a huge negative when applying to real world practical know-how.

Higher education is important, but only as a tool to help with the application. Without application, you are useless.

That's only considering education as it relates to employment. The benefits of education in general are far greater.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: homercles337
As a grossly underpaid Phd starting work in a post meant for an individual with a Bachelor's this stuff is true and bushies should listen up. No one is safe from offshoring under this administration. Sure, now its MS, Intel, nVidia, etc that are setting up camp in India and China with NO penalties and paying folks $2/day. Soon it will be you--mark these words.

There is a point where theoretical teachings become a huge negative when applying to real world practical know-how.

Higher education is important, but only as a tool to help with the application. Without application, you are useless.

That's only considering education as it relates to employment. The benefits of education in general are far greater.

Depends on the field. I find PhD engineering, technical fields fairly useless. Having a bachelor/masters and maybe a MBA is much better in the real world.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: homercles337
As a grossly underpaid Phd starting work in a post meant for an individual with a Bachelor's this stuff is true and bushies should listen up. No one is safe from offshoring under this administration. Sure, now its MS, Intel, nVidia, etc that are setting up camp in India and China with NO penalties and paying folks $2/day. Soon it will be you--mark these words.

There is a point where theoretical teachings become a huge negative when applying to real world practical know-how.

Higher education is important, but only as a tool to help with the application. Without application, you are useless.

That's about as close to an admission as you could expect from a Republican Puppet Apologist.

At least it is a start.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: homercles337
As a grossly underpaid Phd starting work in a post meant for an individual with a Bachelor's this stuff is true and bushies should listen up. No one is safe from offshoring under this administration. Sure, now its MS, Intel, nVidia, etc that are setting up camp in India and China with NO penalties and paying folks $2/day. Soon it will be you--mark these words.

There is a point where theoretical teachings become a huge negative when applying to real world practical know-how.

Higher education is important, but only as a tool to help with the application. Without application, you are useless.

That's only considering education as it relates to employment. The benefits of education in general are far greater.

Depends on the field. I find PhD engineering, technical fields fairly useless. Having a bachelor/masters and maybe a MBA is much better in the real world.

Again, only so far as employability. Anything which requires critical thinking is going to increase mental functions. Anything you didn't previously have experience with means new neural pathways. The more you learn, the more capable you are. Continuing education greatly increases the likelihood of continued psychological development (though age is generally also required). If this world needs anything more than people with knowledge it's people who make it into and past relativism stages of development. Far too many dualists in the world.

Well educated people can, in general, handle anything better. People with experience in one thing can do that thing better, but are more likely to lack in every other facet.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: homercles337
As a grossly underpaid Phd starting work in a post meant for an individual with a Bachelor's this stuff is true and bushies should listen up. No one is safe from offshoring under this administration. Sure, now its MS, Intel, nVidia, etc that are setting up camp in India and China with NO penalties and paying folks $2/day. Soon it will be you--mark these words.

There is a point where theoretical teachings become a huge negative when applying to real world practical know-how.

Higher education is important, but only as a tool to help with the application. Without application, you are useless.

That's about as close to an admission as you could expect from a Republican Puppet Apologist.

At least it is a start.

How come you insist on insulting me even when we are in agreement. I am not a Republican and you just make yourself look incredibly stupid assuming so. Most liberals on this forum understand my views and know my stance on the issues. Why are you the only one to not get it?

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Again, only so far as employability. Anything which requires critical thinking is going to increase mental functions. Anything you didn't previously have experience with means new neural pathways. The more you learn, the more capable you are. Continuing education greatly increases the likelihood of continued psychological development (though age is generally also required). If this world needs anything more than people with knowledge it's people who make it into and past relativism stages of development. Far too many dualists in the world.

Well educated people can, in general, handle anything better. People with experience in one thing can do that thing better, but are more likely to lack in every other facet.

Education is such a vague word to use. What I am describing is education as well...the ability to absorb knowledge and replicate/apply to real situations. The theory you learn in university is usually far to vague (many fields covered by one program) to apply to any particular job, or is far too theoretical for anything in industry.

As a continuous improvement specialist, I can tell you the best ideas come from the experienced workers on the floor. They understand what is wrong, why things go wrong and how to configure the solution to best suit the user. Without these steps you will come to realize upper level higher education may not be your best route. Education is great, I agree; it's just a matter of getting the right mix. Can PhD's be a complete waste? Yes. Can real world work experience be a complete waste? Yes, but less likely so.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Again, only so far as employability. Anything which requires critical thinking is going to increase mental functions. Anything you didn't previously have experience with means new neural pathways. The more you learn, the more capable you are. Continuing education greatly increases the likelihood of continued psychological development (though age is generally also required). If this world needs anything more than people with knowledge it's people who make it into and past relativism stages of development. Far too many dualists in the world.

Well educated people can, in general, handle anything better. People with experience in one thing can do that thing better, but are more likely to lack in every other facet.

Education is such a vague word to use. What I am describing is education as well...the ability to absorb knowledge and replicate/apply to real situations. The theory you learn in university is usually far to vague (many fields covered by one program) to apply to any particular job, or is far too theoretical for anything in industry.

As a continuous improvement specialist, I can tell you the best ideas come from the experienced workers on the floor. They understand what is wrong, why things go wrong and how to configure the solution to best suit the user. Without these steps you will come to realize upper level higher education may not be your best route. Education is great, I agree; it's just a matter of getting the right mix. Can PhD's be a complete waste? Yes. Can real world work experience be a complete waste? Yes, but less likely so.

See, and I completely disagree because I'm not talking about jobs or employability, which mean absolutely nothing to me. I'm talking about mental ability, psychological development, overall adaptability, etc.

I realize that's outside the scope of the thread, but I was responding originally to a specific statement. A PhD may not mean much for your job outlook sometimes, but it's always going to mean you've got something going on upstairs...and in most cases more than a non-degree holder. Not necessarily smarter, since that's separate...but it's like the difference between someone who works out and someone who doesn't. Both can be strong, but overall the one who exercises is going to be more likely to be good at a broad range of physical aspects.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: homercles337
As a grossly underpaid Phd starting work in a post meant for an individual with a Bachelor's this stuff is true and bushies should listen up. No one is safe from offshoring under this administration. Sure, now its MS, Intel, nVidia, etc that are setting up camp in India and China with NO penalties and paying folks $2/day. Soon it will be you--mark these words.

There is a point where theoretical teachings become a huge negative when applying to real world practical know-how.

Higher education is important, but only as a tool to help with the application. Without application, you are useless.

That's about as close to an admission as you could expect from a Republican Puppet Apologist.

At least it is a start.

How come you insist on insulting me even when we are in agreement. I am not a Republican and you just make yourself look incredibly stupid assuming so. Most liberals on this forum understand my views and know my stance on the issues. Why are you the only one to not get it?

Oh come on, insulting? No skin eh up there north of the border?

You're right though, that all I see is your blind faith, jump off the bridge, ideology for the Republican Agenda no matter how destructive it is.

The fact that you are not even in the States makes that lemming mentality even the more baffling.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Stunt

As a continuous improvement specialist, I can tell you the best ideas come from the experienced workers on the floor.

They understand what is wrong, why things go wrong and how to configure the solution to best suit the user.

Holy crap, you don't see your own hypocracy??? 😕

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Stunt

As a continuous improvement specialist, I can tell you the best ideas come from the experienced workers on the floor.

They understand what is wrong, why things go wrong and how to configure the solution to best suit the user.

Holy crap, you don't see your own hypocracy??? 😕

Not sure what you mean Dave, the Stunt is absolutely 100% right in that the best ideas do come from experienced workers on the floor. Give them a machine, let them run it for a month, and listen to their ideas. A great deal of improvement can usually be the result of such a worker. Too bad many of them are being outsourced for "unfair wages (monetary wise - i.e. their money is not valued comparably to ours)".

 

[piasabird]

I have seen some real mistakes in American Business. In downsizing you get rid of all the young blood and you keep the stupid dinosaurs that are ruining your business. I have witnessed the best middle managers and lower end managers get layed off while the worthless backstabbing idiots were retained. These were the same idiots that let bad product go out the door to make it look like they had good production numbers, when in fact they were ruining the company and causing the other shifts to work harder to correct their mistakes when the dissatisfied customers sent the junk back.

It has been estimated that to rework product, it takes 3 times the amount of labor that it would have taken to make the product right to begin with.

This is mismanaging a companies resources. This is why companies fail. They dont have proper ways to track what their own supervisors or managers are actually doing.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Stunt

As a continuous improvement specialist, I can tell you the best ideas come from the experienced workers on the floor.

They understand what is wrong, why things go wrong and how to configure the solution to best suit the user.

Holy crap, you don't see your own hypocracy??? 😕

Not sure what you mean Dave, the Stunt is absolutely 100% right in that the best ideas do come from experienced workers on the floor. Give them a machine, let them run it for a month, and listen to their ideas. A great deal of improvement can usually be the result of such a worker.

Too bad many of them are being outsourced for "unfair wages (monetary wise - i.e. their money is not valued comparably to ours)".

Bingo, that is the hypocracy. He is all for sending jobs and wages down the sh!thole.
$2.96 hr for all.

 

[ENTPTexan]

Yeah, about the only thing people are outsourcing to the US is their armed forces. Hell, we're everyone's armed forces now!

Afgahnistan, Iraq, Saudia Arabia, Israel, Kuwait, most of Europe....

Forget the SAT's - focus on studying for the ASVAB! :roll:

 

[theeedude]

It's like running up an escalator that's going down. Yeah, the trend is for the outsourcing, but you can outrun the trend if you are fast enough 🙂
But generally, take notice of the trends. What does it mean when jobs are getting outsourced? It means your earning potential will not be growing as much or may be shrinking, so you need to even it out by saving money right now, and investing it, perhaps in those countries where our jobs are heading, since their industries are growing. That way, you hedge against outsourcing because your wealth will increase from it, even if your income takes a hit. Of course if you have three morgages out on your house, and you aren't saving anything, you are gonna be screwed if your job is outsourced. Obviously, thanks for stimulating the economy, but you gotta think about your own future too.

 

[Kappo]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Stunt

As a continuous improvement specialist, I can tell you the best ideas come from the experienced workers on the floor.

They understand what is wrong, why things go wrong and how to configure the solution to best suit the user.

Holy crap, you don't see your own hypocracy??? 😕

Not sure what you mean Dave, the Stunt is absolutely 100% right in that the best ideas do come from experienced workers on the floor. Give them a machine, let them run it for a month, and listen to their ideas. A great deal of improvement can usually be the result of such a worker.

Too bad many of them are being outsourced for "unfair wages (monetary wise - i.e. their money is not valued comparably to ours)".

Bingo, that is the hypocracy. He is all for sending jobs and wages down the sh!thole.
$2.96 hr for all.

And the lib standpoint is what? Tax them, tax them again, and punitive tax once more just so they want to say here?

In my 2 days back here at AT... you have reminded me of why I tend to always lean right despite my libetarian votes and enormous desire to get the government out of my life.

Grats on making people take any side that isnt associated with people of your "calibur".

 

[bamacre]

Outsourcing lower-skilled jobs works only if higher-skilled opportunities are created and filled. There are jobs out there waiting for people who can do them, but the problem we have is a lack of skilled people capable of filling these jobs. Our problem is education, but the biggest problem with education is parents. And unfortunarely, that problem cannot be easily solved.

 

[EatSpam]

Originally posted by: bamacre
Outsourcing lower-skilled jobs works only if higher-skilled opportunities are created and filled. There are jobs out there waiting for people who can do them, but the problem we have is a lack of skilled people capable of filling these jobs. Our problem is education, but the biggest problem with education is parents. And unfortunarely, that problem cannot be easily solved.

Links to said jobs?

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: EatSpam

Originally posted by: bamacre
Outsourcing lower-skilled jobs works only if higher-skilled opportunities are created and filled. There are jobs out there waiting for people who can do them, but the problem we have is a lack of skilled people capable of filling these jobs. Our problem is education, but the biggest problem with education is parents. And unfortunarely, that problem cannot be easily solved.

Links to said jobs?

Here's one right under your nose...

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=42&threadid=1816959&enterthread=y

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: homercles337
As a grossly underpaid Phd starting work in a post meant for an individual with a Bachelor's this stuff is true and bushies should listen up. No one is safe from offshoring under this administration. Sure, now its MS, Intel, nVidia, etc that are setting up camp in India and China with NO penalties and paying folks $2/day. Soon it will be you--mark these words.

There is a point where theoretical teachings become a huge negative when applying to real world practical know-how.

Higher education is important, but only as a tool to help with the application. Without application, you are useless.

That's only considering education as it relates to employment. The benefits of education in general are far greater.

Depends on the field. I find PhD engineering, technical fields fairly useless. Having a bachelor/masters and maybe a MBA is much better in the real world.

It REALLY depends what we are talking about. Technology is getting so focused these days and everything is becoming interdisciplinary that you need a field of focus. No longer is it strictly Mechanical, Chemical, Civil, etc... but it is an integration of all these fields. As far as money and jobs are concerned, a PhD pays more.

I've spent quite a bit of time speaking to MANY people with just a BS or just an MS, or industry and academics with PhDs. Through these categories of people I've learned somethings:

If you have a Bachelors all it shows is you have been trained to think a certain way; a Master shows you have general knowledge in a specific field; a PhD shows you are an expert in one tiny peice of information.

That in itself doesn't mean you'll make money by having that PhD, but the pool of applicants from the PhD are much much smaller and you can command better pay. It also depends on how "practical" something is right now. If you are doing Tissue Engineering, due to the fact it is in its infancy you'll have a hard time getting a job outside of academia. But I know a professor who is analyzing the waste that is really hurting CA beaches and how to fix it and he is making MAD money. On the same note, I know a professor doing Mathematical modeling of the heart and he is also raking in the cash (primarily due to a lot of cool advancements that really opened up the field of biomechanics applied to the cardiovascular system the past fifteen years or so).

In the end, if you want to make the big bucks in the industry in something as an engineer and lead your own projects...that PhD is almost mandatory. If you don't mind doing mini projects under the PhD, enjoy the masters...and if you wanna be crunching stuff all day long without a lot of real creative design by just rehashing current ideas, Bachelors works as well 😉


And Homercles...are you the one with a PhD in neuroscience? Isn't the field still in its infancy? When you are in a field that really isn't developed and people are still poking around to get the basic framework...well you just won't see products really being developed yet 😉 A company looks to profit, and if they need to spend twenty years researching they most likely won't care. (hence why most of its still exists in academia) (although I know baxter ended up getting lucky when they realized that a pacemaker in the brain could do wonders 😉 ). I hope you find something else or somehow get back into academia as a professor, because going through six years of hell for just bachelors work isn't fitting 🙁

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Stunt

As a continuous improvement specialist, I can tell you the best ideas come from the experienced workers on the floor.

They understand what is wrong, why things go wrong and how to configure the solution to best suit the user.

Holy crap, you don't see your own hypocracy??? 😕

Not sure what you mean Dave, the Stunt is absolutely 100% right in that the best ideas do come from experienced workers on the floor. Give them a machine, let them run it for a month, and listen to their ideas. A great deal of improvement can usually be the result of such a worker.

Too bad many of them are being outsourced for "unfair wages (monetary wise - i.e. their money is not valued comparably to ours)".

Bingo, that is the hypocracy. He is all for sending jobs and wages down the sh!thole.
$2.96 hr for all.

I'm not sending any jobs overseas. Most of our eliminations and layoffs come from making ourselves more efficient through automation and systems.

Wages are some of the highest i've ever seen; actually our non-union plants are a) more productive, b) more profitable, c) pay workers more. Anyone in our building is paid $18+...for doing mundane jobs (hell even students get paid $16 an hour). Paying $50+ per hour (benifits) for an employee significantly increases our selling price; harder for us to compete.

There will always be an adavantage in doing business here, it's just a matter of stopping these governments, unions and others from putting restrictions to put us well above the break even point. Costs of shipping, costs of warehousing, large lead times, significantly reduced free cash flow are serious negatives for companies who do business overseas.

In the past it was quite easy for my company (ogilopoly at the time) to determine costs and pick a profit margin and set the selling price. The global market is now determining the selling price; this environment has allowed more engineers, skilled tradeds for improvments. Competition from around the world will continue to drive business in the direction it has needed to go for years.