Education is the solution to improving one's career prospects, right?

[LostUte]

The problem is there are too many law schools. The median starting salary at top schools is well over 100k. Going to a tier 4 school is not a good investment. If that is the only place you can get it, you should reconsider.

 

[charrison]

There are too any lawyers in the country, so it is not a big surprise.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: yllus
This sort of post always fills me with revulsion because of the bigotry that shines through. It's so obvious that you'd love to close the borders now that you're safe, sound and gainfully employed in a first-world nation. Fuck everyone else who wants to follow suit.

We'd love to help all of the world's poor if we could but we can't. If we were to open the borders tomorrow our nation's population would probably swell to over a billion people in a short amount of time. Does it really make sense for such a huge amount of people to crowd onto one small piece of land?

Nobody is saying that the U.S. should drop all immigration rules, so who knows why you said this at all.

Like-minded Americans, take note: They're not your jobs - they're just jobs.

The jobs were generated by the economy of what country? Oh that's right. American jobs were generated by the U.S. economy.

And? Is there a job bloodline system I'm unaware of? That has zero bearing on the "rights" to a job.

They'll go to whomever can complete them to a satisfactory level. You are not entitled to a great wage (or any wage at all) because once upon a time, all lawyers in America made bank.

The issue for Americans is whether or not we want to join the third world and have our standards of living average out with people in the third world. Do we internalize the wealth our nation produces and distribute it equitably amongst Americans or do we allow the wealthy to merge our job markets with those of the third world and have the wealthy keep most of the value of a worker's contribution to production while everyone else has their standard of living merged with the third world labor market.

You have absolutely no clue what life in the third world is like. And you need to work on that entitlement issue of yours.

 

[Estrella]

It is just competition, get over it.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: yllus
This sort of post always fills me with revulsion because of the bigotry that shines through. It's so obvious that you'd love to close the borders now that you're safe, sound and gainfully employed in a first-world nation. Fuck everyone else who wants to follow suit.

We'd love to help all of the world's poor if we could but we can't. If we were to open the borders tomorrow our nation's population would probably swell to over a billion people in a short amount of time. Does it really make sense for such a huge amount of people to crowd onto one small piece of land?

Nobody is saying that the U.S. should drop all immigration rules, so who knows why you said this at all.

You seemed to be implying that we should open the floodgates or at the very least that we have some sort of moral obligation to allow immigration even if it isn't in Americans' rational selfish interest.

Like-minded Americans, take note: They're not your jobs - they're just jobs.

The jobs were generated by the economy of what country? Oh that's right. American jobs were generated by the U.S. economy.

And? Is there a job bloodline system I'm unaware of? That has zero bearing on the "rights" to a job.

I'm not saying that people have a moral right to a job. I'm saying that it's in Americans' rational selfish interest that jobs generated by American economic activity go to Americans and that it's good for Americans to have middle class jobs.

They'll go to whomever can complete them to a satisfactory level. You are not entitled to a great wage (or any wage at all) because once upon a time, all lawyers in America made bank.

The issue for Americans is whether or not we want to join the third world and have our standards of living average out with people in the third world. Do we internalize the wealth our nation produces and distribute it equitably amongst Americans or do we allow the wealthy to merge our job markets with those of the third world and have the wealthy keep most of the value of a worker's contribution to production while everyone else has their standard of living merged with the third world labor market.

You have absolutely no clue what life in the third world is like. And you need to work on that entitlement issue of yours.

Please elaborate on what you mean by "entitlement issue." At root, this thread was about whether or not the U.S. economy offers enough college-education-requiring knowledge-based jobs available for everyone willing to obtain the training to work those jobs and also whether or not everyone who is willing to put in an honest day's work can still obtain a middle class or at least lower-middle class lifestyle. As I pointed out in my initial post, the reason people are going to college is because they can no longer obtain decent jobs without a college education but now we are discovering that that is also the case for a great many people who have obtained college educations. What exactly does that imply about the state of our nation's economy? I get the sense that you've missed the point of this entire thread.

Before you break your arm patting yourself on the back for having failed to address any of my points by making an insulting post, perhaps you should consider that you may need to work on your reading comprehension and your ability to address the issues and to provide rational, persuasive arguments instead of attempting ad hominem attacks such as accusing me of having a sense of entitlement. Is every discussion about the state of the economy and the job market also about a sense of entitlement or is it possible that some people are merely concerned about the welfare of the American people? Persuade me that I'm wrong. Please explain why global labor arbitrage is either an invalid concept and/or why almost instantaneously dramatically increasing the size of the labor market relative to the demand for labor will not lower wages for laborers (the price point, standard of living).

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: ohnoes
FFS, "The jobs were generated by the economy of what country? Oh that's right. American jobs were generated by the U.S. economy." Where do you think all of the fortune 500 companies would be without a world economy in which to prosper? It's a simple matter of competition. You have more graduates competing for a lesser number of jobs. Your education increases your chance of landing a white-collar job, but by no means guarantee it. At the end of the day, it boils down to you, and your capabilities. Stop worrying about everyone else going to law school, and focus on yourself and getting your own butt into UChicago or some other top tier law school. If you can only manage to make it into a community college, or some 3rd tier law school, well then a white collar job may not be in your future.

You missed the entire point of this thread. It wasn't about law school in particular. I'm sure similar articles have been written about the value of MBAs and I know that articles have been written about the value of science Ph.D.s The point was that a law degree, an example of graduate and professional education, no longer has the amount of economic value it used to have and that, by implication, other advanced degrees no longer have the amount of value that they used to have. What does this say about the state of our economy and the ability of people to improve their economic standing through their investments in education?

Should we have fewer and more selective law schools? As a matter of public policy, my answer is a resounding yes. American society and well being does not benefit from economic inefficiency and waste. The time and effort wasted on law school (and business school and science graduate degrees, etc.) for non-existent positions in the economy could have been better spent on something else. Can you imagine what kind of anguish and financial difficulties all of these unemployed and underemployed graduates must be suffering? These are real people, you know. Have you no empathy for your fellow Americans (you know, those strange people you share a society with)?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: LostUte
The problem is there are too many law schools. The median starting salary at top schools is well over 100k. Going to a tier 4 school is not a good investment. If that is the only place you can get it, you should reconsider.

I'm going to say that that depends on the person in question and what they plan to do. If you don't need to take out loans in order to pay for it, if you have a large cache of money with which to bankroll a solo practice and to support yourself for the four or five years it would take to make it profitable, and if you want to be a lawyer and know you have the aptitude to do it well then go for it.

On the other hand, if you can only gain admission to a school that isn't in the first tier (top 50) and if you're going to have to borrow money for it and especially if you already have undergraduate student loan debt then you need to reconsider. Even attending one of the schools in the first tier or even a top ten school is a gamble (what happens if you don't stack up all that well against the talented competition and you graduate in the bottom third of the class?).

 

[charrison]

Whippersnapper,
MOre education means better job opportunities, it does not mean a guaranteed job. There is nothing that will guarantee a job. But look at what education can do for you, or more importantly what a lack of education will do for you.

linkage

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Estrella
It is just competition, get over it.

You missed the point entirely. The point was that given the tremendous investment of time, effort, money, and opportunity cost required there shouldn't be an overabundance of competition in that field a healthy economy. People shouldn't feel that they have so few other attractive options that they make the risky investment of going to law school (or to grad school or to the MBA program, etc.).

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: charrison
Whippersnapper,
MOre education means better job opportunities, it does not mean a guaranteed job. There is nothing that will guarantee a job. But look at what education can do for you, or more importantly what a lack of education will do for you.

I'm not arguing that it means having fewer or lesser job opportunities (though some people will argue that it does and that it might be necessary to keep your advanced degrees off of your resume lest you be seen as overqualified for a certain job). Once again, read my initial post. My point was that it's an indicator that the U.S. economy and job market are in a sad state.

Regarding those education and income and unemployment rate statistics, it's important to remember that the people who go to college, the people who graduate from high school, and the dropouts are a self-selecting group and that it's quite possible that if the people who went to college didn't go to college that they'd still do well for the very reasons that they went to and were able to graduate from college in the first place (and by implication, that the dropouts fail in life for the very reasons they dropped out). Thus, it isn't necessarily a wholly causal relationship and is partially correlative. Also, it's difficult to read too much into the employment statistics for reasons I've mentioned in other posts and also because they don't tell us about the quality of the employment. A college graduate who drives a tractor trailer is employed.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: charrison
Whippersnapper,
MOre education means better job opportunities, it does not mean a guaranteed job. There is nothing that will guarantee a job. But look at what education can do for you, or more importantly what a lack of education will do for you.

I'm not arguing that it means having fewer or lesser job opportunities (though some people will argue that it does and that it might be necessary to keep your advanced degrees off of your resume lest you be seen as overqualified for a certain job). Once again, read my initial post. My point was that it's an indicator that the U.S. economy and job market are in a sad state.

Actually it is more of an indicator that there is a glut of lawyers, than an indicator of the economy as a whole. Sometimes too colleges will produce too many of a given skillet and there becomes a glut in that profession. It sucks, but it happens.

Regarding those education and income and unemployment rate statistics, it's important to remember that the people who go to college, the people who graduate from high school, and the dropouts are a self-selecting group and that it's quite possible that if the people who went to college didn't go to college that they'd still do well for the very reasons that they went to and were able to graduate from college in the first place (and by implication, that the dropouts fail in life for the very reasons they dropped out). Thus, it isn't necessarily a wholly causal relationship and is partially correlative.

You right, just having a diploma means that you are start and finish a difficult task. That alone makes you desirable to an employer. On the flip side a college education is not needed for success either. There are plenty of people who have done well for themselves without that extra education.

 

[Engineer]

I understand what the OP is pointing out but I think using a lawyer, even though it took an advanced education to become one, was a poor choice. I once read that the US graduates 5 lawyers per every engineer and Japan graduated 5 engineers per every lawyer. That, in itself, if one of the reasons that law students can't get jobs a lawyers and also the reason that Japan (and other countries) are catching us (or passing us) fast in the technological systems of today.

But to some extent, I do agree. We all hear more education...more education...more education...is the key, but if we keep offshoring for short term profits, no education is going to help as we'll all be selling stuff back and forth to each other with little technological innovation and know-how to drive a "good" US economy. (step #6 in the fall of an empire...)

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Engineer
we'll all be selling stuff back and forth to each other with little technological innovation and know-how to drive a "good" US economy.

(step #6 in the fall of an empire...)

We've already reached that point....see McSame's Ebay economy model.

 

[Madwand1]

This isn't news, or at least it shouldn't be to any lawyers. Lawyers have been known to be over-supplied for decades at least, and doctors the reverse.

 

[jackace]

It's not just lawyers. Finding that first career job after college is becoming harder and harder for everyone these days.

 

[jackace]

Originally posted by: Engineer
I understand what the OP is pointing out but I think using a lawyer, even though it took an advanced education to become one, was a poor choice. I once read that the US graduates 5 lawyers per every engineer and Japan graduated 5 engineers per every lawyer. That, in itself, if one of the reasons that law students can't get jobs a lawyers and also the reason that Japan (and other countries) are catching us (or passing us) fast in the technological systems of today.

But to some extent, I do agree. We all hear more education...more education...more education...is the key, but if we keep offshoring for short term profits, no education is going to help as we'll all be selling stuff back and forth to each other with little technological innovation and know-how to drive a "good" US economy. (step #6 in the fall of an empire...)

I agree with this mostly, but even engineers are feeling the squeeze these days. Getting an entry level (fresh out of college) job for engineers is not much easier then it is for any other major at the moment.

Also my father is an engineer with 30 years experience. He can find a job fine, but once he gets things up and running again, and/or gets everything running smooth again he finds himself unemployed again. This usually takes a year or 2, but once things are running smooth the employer lays-off my father who is making $90,000 and hires a tech or something to just maintain the operation. These techs make $35,000-$45,000 a year.