How many people think that education should be a constitutionally protected right? By education, I mean all the way up to the end of high school.
Education as a constitutionally protected right?
- Thread starter imported_artemis
- Start date
That's taking things a bit far. I'm not into tweaking the Constitution that much for every little thing. However, many presidents have certainly come close to that.
"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness...To the security of a free constitution it contributes in various ways - ... by teaching the people themselves to know and to value their own rights;" ~ George Washington 1796, speaking about his petition to establish a national university at government expense.
"Education is here placed among the articles of public care...I suppose an amendment ot the Constitution, by consent of the States, necessary, because the objects now recommended are not among those enumerated in teh Constitutino, and to which it permits the public moneys to be applied...The present consideration of a national establishment for education particularly is rendered proper..." ~ Thomas Jefferson 1808, on an amendment to use surplus monies for infrastructure improvements including education.
"Among the first, perhaps the very first, instrument for the improvement of the condition of men is knowledge, and to the acquisition of much of the knowledge adapted to the wants, the comforts, and enjoyments of human life public insitutions and seminaries of learning are essential." ~John Quincy Adams 1825
"The time-honored and beneficient policy of setting apart certain section sof the public land for educatinoal purposes in teh new States should be continued...The subjects of education and agriculture are of great interet to the success of our republican institutions, happiness, and grandeur as a nation...Educational interest may well be served by the grant of the proceeds of the sale o fpublic lands to settlers...I suggest for your earnest consideration, and most earnestly recommend it, that a constitutional amendment be submitted to the legislatures of the several States for ratification, making it the duty of each of the several States to establish and forever maintain free public schools adequate to the education of all the children..." ~Ulysses Grant 1874.
"To education more than to any other agency we are to look as the resource fo rthe advancement of the people in the requisite knowledge and appreciation of their rights and responsibilities as citizens, and I desire to repeat the suggestion contained in my former message in ehalf of the enactment of appropriate measuress by Congress for the purpose of supplementing with national aid the local systems of education in the several States." ~Rutherford Hayes 1878
"All of the constitutional power of the nation and of the States and all the volunteer forces of the people should be surrendered to meet this danger by the savory influence of universal education." ~James Garfield 1881
"It is essential to provide adequate elementary and secondary schools everywhere and additional educational opportunities for large numbers of people beyond the secondary level. Accordingly, I repeat the proposal of last year's Budget Message that the Federal Government provide financial aid to assist the States in assuring more nearly equal opportunities for a good education." ~Harry Truman 1946
"It is the right of every American, from childhood on, to have access to knowledge." ~Dwight Eisenhower 1955
Everything Lyndon Johnson ever said (more or less).
"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness...To the security of a free constitution it contributes in various ways - ... by teaching the people themselves to know and to value their own rights;" ~ George Washington 1796, speaking about his petition to establish a national university at government expense.
"Education is here placed among the articles of public care...I suppose an amendment ot the Constitution, by consent of the States, necessary, because the objects now recommended are not among those enumerated in teh Constitutino, and to which it permits the public moneys to be applied...The present consideration of a national establishment for education particularly is rendered proper..." ~ Thomas Jefferson 1808, on an amendment to use surplus monies for infrastructure improvements including education.
"Among the first, perhaps the very first, instrument for the improvement of the condition of men is knowledge, and to the acquisition of much of the knowledge adapted to the wants, the comforts, and enjoyments of human life public insitutions and seminaries of learning are essential." ~John Quincy Adams 1825
"The time-honored and beneficient policy of setting apart certain section sof the public land for educatinoal purposes in teh new States should be continued...The subjects of education and agriculture are of great interet to the success of our republican institutions, happiness, and grandeur as a nation...Educational interest may well be served by the grant of the proceeds of the sale o fpublic lands to settlers...I suggest for your earnest consideration, and most earnestly recommend it, that a constitutional amendment be submitted to the legislatures of the several States for ratification, making it the duty of each of the several States to establish and forever maintain free public schools adequate to the education of all the children..." ~Ulysses Grant 1874.
"To education more than to any other agency we are to look as the resource fo rthe advancement of the people in the requisite knowledge and appreciation of their rights and responsibilities as citizens, and I desire to repeat the suggestion contained in my former message in ehalf of the enactment of appropriate measuress by Congress for the purpose of supplementing with national aid the local systems of education in the several States." ~Rutherford Hayes 1878
"All of the constitutional power of the nation and of the States and all the volunteer forces of the people should be surrendered to meet this danger by the savory influence of universal education." ~James Garfield 1881
"It is essential to provide adequate elementary and secondary schools everywhere and additional educational opportunities for large numbers of people beyond the secondary level. Accordingly, I repeat the proposal of last year's Budget Message that the Federal Government provide financial aid to assist the States in assuring more nearly equal opportunities for a good education." ~Harry Truman 1946
"It is the right of every American, from childhood on, to have access to knowledge." ~Dwight Eisenhower 1955
Everything Lyndon Johnson ever said (more or less).
Cerb
Elite Member
- Aug 26, 2000
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Not no, but hell no. IMO, it does more harm than good as it is now. Education should be allowed, and encouraged (some of the bill of rights helps); but schooling, which is often counter to education, should not be required in any way. The primary reaxson being that it can be used so against the aims of education, and ofr training and turning off minds which might otherwise be curious and intelligent.
I think people need at least an 8th grade education, and beyond that I think it should start working off of merit. The only way I can see to do that is by testing, but that's not a real popular idea these days. All I can say about that is hey, nothings perfect.
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2004
- 11,442
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I don't think it should be protected as a "right". The problem with having education as a "right" is that the "right" requires violating other people's individual rights by stealing their money in the form of taxes to pay for that alleged "right".
I don't have a problem with K-12 education, but I don't think I'd want it enshrined in the Constitution as a "right".
- Oct 30, 2000
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Those tests are a result/counterbalance to the messed up educational system that has been becoming prevalent over the past 20-30 years.
The changing emphasis from learning and more toward self gratification reduced the quality of education and left students less equiped to tackle the mean world outdside mommy & daddy's door.
The only way to then ensure that the easy ciriculum could bekept and still attempt to ensure qualified students was to determine a minimum quality of competency via tests.
If you want to get rid of the competency tests, ensure that the educational system is producing students that are competent.
The "mean world" has gotten a lot meaner since I was a kid. I don't envy today's kids too much. Working mom's, etc. I'm not even going to go there.
That's why I like a merit system of some kind. After 8th grade, most kids are sharp enough to realize what the game is and I think they should start setting goals and be rewarded for meeting those goals. I would have no problem with the state paying for education all the way thru 4 years of college if they meet the requirements.
I know, they already have scholarship programs, I'm talking about something like that only much bigger.
Cerb
Elite Member
- Aug 26, 2000
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Those tests are the result of a want to have a normalized method of judging competence in academic skills, and are older than 30 years. Their proliferation and extended use for the schools is a result of problems in the schooling system(s). The change in emphasis is the problem. School as day care is wrong (but it won't change unless a lot of US workers start getting pissed off enough to risk their jobs over it--I'm just getting out there, and I'm not sure if I have the courage to that).
I'm not sure I understand the constitutional rights part of the question. There's basically two kinds of rights in the early American documents--rights we do have under natural law and rights we should have. Liberty is an example of the former, bearing arms the latter. You can argue for education as a natural right by saying that a means to education is necessary for the pursuit of happiness, and you can argue for education as an amendment to the Constitution. You simply need the votes in Congress for the latter.
Your taxes are really the price you pay for living in the society of your choice. You are paying for the services that make life in a human society bearable. You are not "forced" to pay those taxes. As an adult, you are of course free to move to a different country with tax laws that are more appealing to you.
Cerb
Elite Member
- Aug 26, 2000
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I wonder, why didn't the colonists just move to France, or Britain, or somewhere like that, instead of going through all this trouble...
Anyway: how is it the society of my choice? When did I get the decide I wanted it? I didn't. It is, however, my duty to do what I can to make it a society that I may be pleased with. If anyone were just to move when they didn't like something, they would be hopelessly lost, and also be leaving everyone else behind to not only be adversely affected, but also to perpetuate a poor situation.
Ghandi, MLK, etc. did not run. We may not be as great each, but we all have the same duty to change the world around us, rather than run from it and leave others to clean up the mess (which they won't do, instead leaving it for their 'others', and so on).
IMO people have the right to educate themselves and learn. If the government passed a law that said you cannot learn XYZ subject then that would be a violation of a person's rights.
If the government does not provide for public education I would not consider that a violation of a person's rights.
That being said I dont think that there is a right to education from a federal standpoint. There is no where in the US constitution that guarentees public education, nor any provisions for a public school system. The reality however is that the politicans in Washington only support and follow the consitution in the vaugest of ways when they are not outright ignoring it.
Since there is no mention of public education in the US consitution then it is a power reseved for the states and the people. However since I have not read the consitutions of all 50 US states I dont know which ones specifically guarentee a public education.
Public education provided by state and local governments is most likely a good thing, and I support it.
If the government does not provide for public education I would not consider that a violation of a person's rights.
That being said I dont think that there is a right to education from a federal standpoint. There is no where in the US constitution that guarentees public education, nor any provisions for a public school system. The reality however is that the politicans in Washington only support and follow the consitution in the vaugest of ways when they are not outright ignoring it.
Since there is no mention of public education in the US consitution then it is a power reseved for the states and the people. However since I have not read the consitutions of all 50 US states I dont know which ones specifically guarentee a public education.
Public education provided by state and local governments is most likely a good thing, and I support it.
when you turned 18 (or whatever age in your part of the world) and continued to live in the country in question.
as for your other comments, it seems a bit rich to liken Ghandi's human rights and self-determination struggle with a government taxing citizens and spendng the proceeds on public education.
The American revolution was not about being free of taxes altogether it was about being free of "British taxes". You do realize that after those colonist rebelled and kicked out the British they started imposing their own taxes. Ever hear of the Whiskey Rebellion ? Go look it up.
Cerb
Elite Member
- Aug 26, 2000
- 17,484
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You missed the point, which was not directly about taxes (nor was the American revolution--taxes were just that last straw to really kick it into gear). To spell it out: this is your home. If you don't like what is going on, you should not run away to somewhere that tolerates your thinking. You should do what you can to help change, and attempt to get others to see it as well, that may also attempt to affect change. Leaving will only mean there is that much more of a chance that what you don't like may spread to wherever you go.
episodic
Lifer
- Feb 7, 2004
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I don't know why people keep saying we are doing so bad. Heck, I had to look up several things to help my 11 year old with his 5th grade math homework. Sheesh. Figuring out the lateral height of a square based pyramidal prism. WTF? Had to use pythagorean theorm, etc - then use that in yet another awful formula to figure out the surface area.
I for one have made it 32 years with no knowledge of having to do this, and have done ok. Why can't they make sure they understand basic math, fractions, and decimals. They are teaching this, and most of my son's friends till have a hard time with what 5/8 means.
Sigh . . .
I for one have made it 32 years with no knowledge of having to do this, and have done ok. Why can't they make sure they understand basic math, fractions, and decimals. They are teaching this, and most of my son's friends till have a hard time with what 5/8 means.
Sigh . . .
If you put the right to education in the constitution, then every idiot that was ever kicked out of school for being a disruptive ass would start a court case suing the public school system.
So I would say it's a bad idea.
So I would say it's a bad idea.
n yusef
Platinum Member
- Feb 20, 2005
- 2,158
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1) If your son is using the Pythagorean Theorum at 11, he's way ahead of most (98%) Americans. Most kids don't start that until high school or at least 8th grade.
2) How did you make your way through HS without understanding basic geometrical concepts as your son was doing at 11?
episodic
Lifer
- Feb 7, 2004
- 11,088
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I took Algebra 1 in 10th grade. Geometry in 11th. Algebra II in the 12th - and then college algebra. Never did I have to figure the surface area of a prism. Volume of stuff - yea. Never surface area. I'm challenging how practical all of this stuff is.
In fact, I've never had to use the Pythagorean theorm. Dare I say I've never even needed to solve a one step equation.
I believe that one has a right to an education under current laws. While not protected under the constitution, it is still protected. If it were to be protected by the constitution it would have no effect in the foreseeable future. I think the question is: Do we wanted a bloated constitution in order to imbed the right to an education more firmly in our civilization?
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