Edmunds Comparison Test: 2007 Mercedes-Benz CLK63 AMG Black Series vs. 2007 BMW M6

overst33r

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
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http://www.edmunds.com/insidel....il.home.photopanel..3.*#

If the 2007 Mercedes-Benz CLK63 AMG Black Series and 2007 BMW M6 could talk trash, things would get ugly in a hurry.

The big-bore Benz would snort something about its 465 pound-feet of grunt, the kind of power that would leave the Bimmer's flame-surfaced sheet metal in a smoldering pile on the road. The high-strung M6 would make a remark about the Benz's boy-racer fender flares, silly bodywork vents and decidedly uncivilized exhaust note.

You can imagine the slugfest that would follow, plenty of 500 horsepower bellowing through quad exhaust pipes and then R-compound rubber splattered across elegant grilles. Think of it: a total hammer-and-tongs cage match, testing these high-performance icons to their breaking point.

And that's precisely how we approached this comparison of the 2007 Mercedes-Benz CLK63 AMG Black Series and the 2007 BMW M6.

Price Wars
Sorry to end the suspense, but it shouldn't come as a surprise that the Benz wins this contest given its $136,000 price tag ? nearly a $27,000 premium over the M6. Or should it?

The BMW M6 coupe and the M5 sedan have proven themselves worthy to us in the past. And this M6 came fully equipped, complete with $3,500 worth of Merino leather upholstery, BMW's $1,000 Comfort Access System, the $1,000 Head-Up Display and $1,095 HD and satellite radio. The price tag for this car comes to $109,190, as tested.

For its part, the Benz has no options. But like the M6, it comes standard with a navigation system, automatic climate control and plenty of leather upholstery. So this AMG-built hot rod is not exactly a stripped-down track-only version of the CLK. Quite the opposite, in fact. There's plenty of opulence to go with its bad attitude.

Still, these are serious performance cars and we weighted the scoring accordingly, with 30 percent of the final ranking determined by their merits at the track.

The Important Bits
There was a time when any comparison test that turned 1,000 horsepower loose on the public roads required a whole handful of vehicles. But in a world grossly mutated by public fascination with ever-increasing amounts of horsepower, only two are now required.

And so here we have two grand coupes that attempt to make 500 hp a useful proposition on the street. The approaches, in each case, are quite different. Both coupes use large, front-mounted engines driving the rear wheels, but that's where the similarities end.

The BMW's 5.0-liter V10 makes its power with lots of twist, as peak power arrives at 7,750 rpm and the redline lies all the way up at 8,250 rpm. Even the V10's peak torque of 383 lb-ft occurs at a lofty 6,100 rpm.

Meanwhile, the Benz's 6.2-liter V8 takes the classic character of a V8 and pushes the envelope. Sure, this 32-valve DOHC engine belches out 465 lb-ft of torque, but it also does so at 5,000 rpm ? a higher engine speed than is usually seen in an engine with this much displacement. This relatively high torque peak gives way to an even higher power peak of 6,800 rpm, when 500 hp is at your command. And without hesitation this V8 will bounce off its 7,200-rpm rev limiter while making a sound like God's own bulldozer.

Put It Down
These two cars also sport unusual transmissions, not the least because both incorporate seven gears.

The M6 comes equipped only with a sequential manual gearbox, which is basically a manual transmission that relies on actuators and careful programming to do the work usually accomplished with a clutch pedal and the driver's left leg. Shift paddles on the steering wheel trigger each shift (or you can also toggle the gears in the traditional way with the shift lever mounted on the center console) and the automated process gives you quicker gearchanges, complete with matched revs during aggressive downshifts. There's also a completely automated mode so the transmission will perform like an automatic.

Shift paddles are mounted on the steering wheel in the Benz, and the bizarre shape of the lever on the center console reminds you that it's meant only for changing shift modes. There's a mode in which the transmission will do the shifting on its own if left to its own devices, and there's a mode in which each gear will stay engaged until the driver selects another.

The difference in these seven-speed transmissions lies in the fact that the BMW is fundamentally a manual transmission with an automated clutch, while Mercedes-Benz is basically an automatic transmission with a torque converter. The Benz's torque converter acts like a sponge between the engine and rear wheels, soaking up the roughness in the power delivery yet absorbing some of the power as well. And if you want effective rev-matching to accompany your downshifts, the Benz's torque converter can't deliver it, and it simply takes up the slack until engine speed catches up with wheel speed.

Getting Involved
Driving through the suburbs in the CLK63 AMG Black Series is only slightly more subtle than pacing a Formula 1 race with one ? which is this car's full-time gig, by the way. Since it's intended to be a track car, the suspension setup of the Black Series can be tweaked in as many ways as Paris Hilton's legal record. Its ride height is adjustable and so are its damping rates and camber settings. Of course, all this must be done using tools and elbow grease.

Meanwhile the BMW M6 doesn't offer any such track-ready adjustments, but at least the damping can be tuned from the comfort of the driver seat thanks to an electronic button mounted on the center console.

Turns out this difference in the way the Black Series and M6 can be tuned for the road also proves to be a perfect metaphor for the way these cars drive.

The Benz requires work. The responses of its chassis, steering and brakes are filled with useful information about what's going on at the interface between the tire and the road, as well as the physical forces acting on the car. But the efforts are high and the information packed into not-so-subtle jabs and twists. Steering inputs must be deliberate, yet the reward is proportional to the work ? like dancing with a big lady who can really samba.

The M6, by comparison, feels bigger because it is, some 2.6 inches longer in wheelbase and 8.6 inches longer overall. This additional length is a nuisance on a tight and twisting road and only slightly less burdensome in more open terrain. The M6's variable-ratio steering isn't as honest and its brakes lose their confidence-inspiring edge after only a few minutes of hard driving. We're talking about a very capable car here, one that manages to make use of 500 hp in a way that doesn't make you feel as if you're risking your life. But it just doesn't happen to be as inspired at the limit as the smaller, more intensely focused Benz.

The Smackdown
Line up these two brutes on the drag strip and the result is closer than you might think. This is partly because these cars weigh almost the same, as only 4 pounds separate the 3,914-pound BMW M6 from the 3,918-pound CLK63 AMG Black Series. When it comes to acceleration to 60 mph, the Benz gets the nod, achieving the feat in 4.4 seconds. The M6 gets there in 4.7 seconds.

Only 0.2 second separates these cars when it comes time for acceleration through the quarter-mile, and the Benz covers this distance in 12.6 seconds at a trap speed of 116.7 mph, while the Bimmer does the job in 12.8 seconds in 115.2 mph.

In any contest of outright cornering grip, the CLK brutalizes the Bimmer once again. The skid-pad smackdown proves pretty ugly, as the CLK sticks right up to 0.96g, while the M6 languishes at 0.85g. The driver's ability to balance the Benz with under- or oversteer is decisive in this contest, and the car communicates its intentions unlike any other Mercedes-Benz we've ever tested. By comparison, the M6's light-effort steering requires a more delicate sense of the cornering limit from the driver, and the car's nose-heavy weight distribution places far more of the burden on its front tires.

Finding speed through the slalom cones was harder in the M6 where its larger size again worked against it, but the final results were very close, with the Mercedes achieving 67.8 mph and the BMW recording 66.2 mph.

The Benz stops better, too. It produces an outstanding halt from 60 mph in just 108 feet. The M6 takes 114 feet to get the job done and on several occasions we drove it hard enough to encounter brake fade. Since it has to do the job with conventional rotors while the Black Series carries massive (and expensive) 14.2-inch carbon brakes, we weren't surprised.

Be-muscled Styling
If the conventional Mercedes-Benz CLK coupe is a butterfly, then this badass Black Series version has emerged from the AMG cocoon with a massive injection of growth hormone. Its huge fender flares are like veins bulging from beneath its overstuffed skin. There are carbon-fiber trim panels around the vents in front of the front wheels, while an oil cooler for the rear differential hides behind the aerodynamic apron under the rear bumper. And forged 19-inch wheels are wrapped in track-ready, R-compound Pirelli P Zero Corsa tires, 265/30YR19s in front and 285/30YR19s in the rear. There's simply no denying the purposefulness of the Black Series.

The BMW M6, however, is a heavily styled car with a few high-performance details. There are hints of purpose, sure, but it doesn't claw your eyes out with its brutal intent like the CLK63. From most angles the combination of forms seems downright bizarre to us. If you can get your head around the M6's unusual sheet metal, you'll find hints of its ability hiding in the styling. Nineteen-inch wheels with 255/40ZR19 front and 285/35ZR19 rear Continental SportContact2 tires are the first clue.

Inside, both cars are among the best in the business when it comes to materials, fit and finish. Leather is everywhere in both. We give the M6 a slight advantage here because its leather upholstery is rich, soft and abundant, while every control interface operates with benchmark precision. Even though we continue to struggle with much of the logic behind the layout and features of the M6, it represents an unrivaled bit of craftsmanship.

Yet if it's driving that matters, then the AMG sport seats of the Black Series can't be matched for support. The three-way electronically adjusted bolsters in the seatback provide great support as long as you can squeeze into the seat in the first place.

The Easy Choice
Bottom line: The Benz wins this test, but not just because it's quicker and handles better. Nope. When you're talking about laying down this much cash, there's more to it than performance. For this kind of green we want something special. We want attitude to go with the speed, sound to go with the looks and exclusivity to justify the cost of entry.

The CLK63 AMG does it all. And it does it in a way the haughty, if capable, M6 cannot, with fat fender flares, bad attitude and plenty of brawn to back up its trash talk.

I'd take the Benz, those bulging fenders make my pants bulge...

I LOVE the V10 note of the M6 a bit more than the rumble of the V8 in the Benz...
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
It takes BMW a V10 and $100,000 to make 390 ft-lbs, and even then way up at 6100 RPM? LOL And the car weighs nearly 4,000 lbs, heavier than most American cars, and gets 12/19 mpg.

So much for 'superior engineering' *snicker*

I'm just sick and tired how when BMW comes up with something like this, it's awesome advanced technology because it's BMW, but if it was a Hummer or a Viper, everyone would be trash talking it saying how it's a heavy pig and a gas guzzler, etc. Typical euro-peon snotty elitism.
 

overst33r

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
5,761
12
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Originally posted by: exdeath
It takes BMW a V10 and $100,000 to make 390 ft-lbs, and even then way up at 6100 RPM? LOL And the car weighs nearly 4,000 lbs, heavier than most American cars, and gets 12/19 mpg.

So much for 'superior engineering' *snicker*

I'm just sick and tired how when BMW comes up with something like this, it's awesome advanced technology because it's BMW, but if it was a Hummer or a Viper, everyone would be trash talking it saying how it's a heavy pig and a gas guzzler, etc. Typical euro-peon snotty elitism.

You are talking about a low-displacement, high-revving V10. What did you expect?

Is it necessary to need a V10 and $100,000 to make 500hp? Hell no. Is it an example of F1 technology brought to the streets in a Grand Tourer? Yessur

A hummer has no place in this discussion. Dodge never meant the Viper to be an example of advanced technology with push rods and consulting another manufacturer to help them implement variable valve timing... The Viper is a muscle car that can take turns... Nothing wrong with that, just saying Dodge never intended it to be anything else.

American companies have a different style of making cars, being the birthplace of the V8, I would not expect any differently. I am waiting for the day when an American manufacturer makes a Grand Tourer that beats the BMW in performance while having a comparable interior.

Every single car magazine that I have come across raves about the engine...

There has to be a reason, I doubt they are being bribed by BMW...

 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Originally posted by: mariok2006
Originally posted by: exdeath
It takes BMW a V10 and $100,000 to make 390 ft-lbs, and even then way up at 6100 RPM? LOL And the car weighs nearly 4,000 lbs, heavier than most American cars, and gets 12/19 mpg.

So much for 'superior engineering' *snicker*

I'm just sick and tired how when BMW comes up with something like this, it's awesome advanced technology because it's BMW, but if it was a Hummer or a Viper, everyone would be trash talking it saying how it's a heavy pig and a gas guzzler, etc. Typical euro-peon snotty elitism.

You are talking about a low-displacement, high-revving V10. What did you expect?

Is it necessary to need a V10 and $100,000 to make 500hp? Hell no. Is it an example of F1 technology brought to the streets in a Grand Tourer? Yessur

A hummer has no place in this discussion. Dodge never meant the Viper to be an example of advanced technology with push rods and consulting another manufacturer to help them implement variable valve timing... The Viper is a muscle car that can take turns... Nothing wrong with that, just saying Dodge never intended it to be anything else.

American companies have a different style of making cars, being the birthplace of the V8, I would not expect any differently. I am waiting for the day when an American manufacturer makes a Grand Tourer that beats the BMW in performance while having a comparable interior.

Every single car magazine that I have come across raves about the engine...

There has to be a reason, I doubt they are being bribed by BMW...

Not trying to nit pick, I've always said the only BMW or Mercedes I accept as being a real BMW or Mercedes will have a 'M' or a 'AMG' in the model. I'm just saying all the same things people would say if you saw those specs in an American made car. If car with similar specs came out wearing a Dodge, Ford, or Chevy badge on it, you'd see a lot of upturned noses and people saying that BMW is more 'advanced' and American cars are bloated dinosaurs.

Brand image and snob appeal much?
 

overst33r

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
5,761
12
81
Originally posted by: exdeath
Originally posted by: mariok2006
Originally posted by: exdeath
It takes BMW a V10 and $100,000 to make 390 ft-lbs, and even then way up at 6100 RPM? LOL And the car weighs nearly 4,000 lbs, heavier than most American cars, and gets 12/19 mpg.

So much for 'superior engineering' *snicker*

I'm just sick and tired how when BMW comes up with something like this, it's awesome advanced technology because it's BMW, but if it was a Hummer or a Viper, everyone would be trash talking it saying how it's a heavy pig and a gas guzzler, etc. Typical euro-peon snotty elitism.

You are talking about a low-displacement, high-revving V10. What did you expect?

Is it necessary to need a V10 and $100,000 to make 500hp? Hell no. Is it an example of F1 technology brought to the streets in a Grand Tourer? Yessur

A hummer has no place in this discussion. Dodge never meant the Viper to be an example of advanced technology with push rods and consulting another manufacturer to help them implement variable valve timing... The Viper is a muscle car that can take turns... Nothing wrong with that, just saying Dodge never intended it to be anything else.

American companies have a different style of making cars, being the birthplace of the V8, I would not expect any differently. I am waiting for the day when an American manufacturer makes a Grand Tourer that beats the BMW in performance while having a comparable interior.

Every single car magazine that I have come across raves about the engine...

There has to be a reason, I doubt they are being bribed by BMW...

Not trying to nit pick, I've always said the only BMW or Mercedes I accept as being a real BMW or Mercedes will have a 'M' or a 'AMG' in the model. I'm just saying all the same things people would say if you saw those specs in an American made car. If car with similar specs came out wearing a Dodge, Ford, or Chevy badge on it, you'd see a lot of upturned noses and people saying that BMW is more 'advanced' and American cars are bloated dinosaurs.

Brand image and snob appeal much?

No doubt that BMW owners have a brand whore image...
 

SVT Cobra

Lifer
Mar 29, 2005
13,264
2
0
Originally posted by: mariok2006
Originally posted by: exdeath
Originally posted by: mariok2006
Originally posted by: exdeath
It takes BMW a V10 and $100,000 to make 390 ft-lbs, and even then way up at 6100 RPM? LOL And the car weighs nearly 4,000 lbs, heavier than most American cars, and gets 12/19 mpg.

So much for 'superior engineering' *snicker*

I'm just sick and tired how when BMW comes up with something like this, it's awesome advanced technology because it's BMW, but if it was a Hummer or a Viper, everyone would be trash talking it saying how it's a heavy pig and a gas guzzler, etc. Typical euro-peon snotty elitism.

You are talking about a low-displacement, high-revving V10. What did you expect?

Is it necessary to need a V10 and $100,000 to make 500hp? Hell no. Is it an example of F1 technology brought to the streets in a Grand Tourer? Yessur

A hummer has no place in this discussion. Dodge never meant the Viper to be an example of advanced technology with push rods and consulting another manufacturer to help them implement variable valve timing... The Viper is a muscle car that can take turns... Nothing wrong with that, just saying Dodge never intended it to be anything else.

American companies have a different style of making cars, being the birthplace of the V8, I would not expect any differently. I am waiting for the day when an American manufacturer makes a Grand Tourer that beats the BMW in performance while having a comparable interior.

Every single car magazine that I have come across raves about the engine...

There has to be a reason, I doubt they are being bribed by BMW...

Not trying to nit pick, I've always said the only BMW or Mercedes I accept as being a real BMW or Mercedes will have a 'M' or a 'AMG' in the model. I'm just saying all the same things people would say if you saw those specs in an American made car. If car with similar specs came out wearing a Dodge, Ford, or Chevy badge on it, you'd see a lot of upturned noses and people saying that BMW is more 'advanced' and American cars are bloated dinosaurs.

Brand image and snob appeal much?

No doubt that BMW owners have a brand whore image...

Not to mention most buyers believing that whole "best made machine thing in the whole world" slogan.
 

overst33r

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
5,761
12
81
Originally posted by: SVT Cobra
Originally posted by: mariok2006
Originally posted by: exdeath
Originally posted by: mariok2006
Originally posted by: exdeath
It takes BMW a V10 and $100,000 to make 390 ft-lbs, and even then way up at 6100 RPM? LOL And the car weighs nearly 4,000 lbs, heavier than most American cars, and gets 12/19 mpg.

So much for 'superior engineering' *snicker*

I'm just sick and tired how when BMW comes up with something like this, it's awesome advanced technology because it's BMW, but if it was a Hummer or a Viper, everyone would be trash talking it saying how it's a heavy pig and a gas guzzler, etc. Typical euro-peon snotty elitism.

You are talking about a low-displacement, high-revving V10. What did you expect?

Is it necessary to need a V10 and $100,000 to make 500hp? Hell no. Is it an example of F1 technology brought to the streets in a Grand Tourer? Yessur

A hummer has no place in this discussion. Dodge never meant the Viper to be an example of advanced technology with push rods and consulting another manufacturer to help them implement variable valve timing... The Viper is a muscle car that can take turns... Nothing wrong with that, just saying Dodge never intended it to be anything else.

American companies have a different style of making cars, being the birthplace of the V8, I would not expect any differently. I am waiting for the day when an American manufacturer makes a Grand Tourer that beats the BMW in performance while having a comparable interior.

Every single car magazine that I have come across raves about the engine...

There has to be a reason, I doubt they are being bribed by BMW...

Not trying to nit pick, I've always said the only BMW or Mercedes I accept as being a real BMW or Mercedes will have a 'M' or a 'AMG' in the model. I'm just saying all the same things people would say if you saw those specs in an American made car. If car with similar specs came out wearing a Dodge, Ford, or Chevy badge on it, you'd see a lot of upturned noses and people saying that BMW is more 'advanced' and American cars are bloated dinosaurs.

Brand image and snob appeal much?

No doubt that BMW owners have a brand whore image...

Not to mention most buyers believing that whole "best made machine thing in the whole world" slogan.

It's amazing what marketing to ignorant people can accomplish
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
It's more the status and money image. Those same kinds of people that act like they are rich because they have a cell phone glued to their ear 24/7 in public because cell phones were once expensive and exclusive 25 years ago. You know, the people at restaurants that won't shut up, and leave their phone out in plain view on the edge of their table like it's in a display window, or the people who pretend to sound important on their cell phone when the service was disconnected due to late payments, etc... Those are the same people that flock to newly affordable bottom of the barrel BMWs and Mercedes and turn their nose down at anything else like $100,000 cars are the norm.

BMW used to be a high class expensive exclusive luxury vehicle. Now it's just another sedan, albeit one a notch above most, but not all. You have a bunch of ignorant self important minimum wage posers driving around 318s, saying Mustangs and Corollas suck because the M5 has this and that, etc.

Now that they are going down market with all these cheap affordable cars like the 1 and 3 series, you have anything from hood rats to trailer snobs leasing them and acting like they are better than everybody else.

I can't count how many C220s and 3 series I see parked in trailer parks.
 

Sqube

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2004
3,078
1
0
So... you hate the cars because of the attitudes of the people who drive them? Or do you just hate the drivers?

One of those attitudes I can respect. The other I find stupid. Neither of them, in my opinion, fit into the scope of this discussion. I'm not the most knowledgeable car person you'll ever find by a long shot, but I was always under the impression that BMW wasn't known for massively torquey engines. It's not what they do.

So your hatred for BMW drivers notwithstanding, what do you think of the M6?
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Originally posted by: Sqube
So... you hate the cars because of the attitudes of the people who drive them? Or do you just hate the drivers?

One of those attitudes I can respect. The other I find stupid. Neither of them, in my opinion, fit into the scope of this discussion. I'm not the most knowledgeable car person you'll ever find by a long shot, but I was always under the impression that BMW wasn't known for massively torquey engines. It's not what they do.

So your hatred for BMW drivers notwithstanding, what do you think of the M6?

I was just playing the other side of the coin. You always hear "Chevy needs 6.0L to make 400 HP? How crappy" so it made just as much sense to say "BMW needs a 5.0L V10 to make 383 ft-lbs? How crappy"; i.e.: no sense at all, which is my point. Just somehow BMW is never criticized for the same things American car makers are criticized for.

I mean if you posted a link to a new Ford with a 5.0L V10 that got 19 mpg, I guarantee you there would be post after post about how Ford needs to get with the program and stop making more gas guzzlers that nobody needs, etc. BMW does it and its infallible.

It's not so much hatred as being tired of the leftist elitist hypocrisy and anti-American flaming that goes on in the automotive world and especially on ATOT.

If I'm going to have a BMW it better be something with a straight 6 like a E46 M3. An all new V10 in a BMW just seems, I don't know, new and experimental or something and not traditional BMW. And there is no performance aftermarket for it. There is all kinds of stuff tried and true for the 6s.

I do kind of like the 6 series in general though. More sports car and less old folks sardine can. I'd honestly take either of these cars, like I said, as long as it has a M or a AMG. The red of the CLK irritates me though, it looks plastic. The only cars that should be red are a Ferrari and a 65 Mustang.

The CLK here seems more of an exotic show car, you'd be afraid to scuff the interior, etc.
The M6 seems more of a daily driver with a robust users interior that begs to be used regularly without fear, as is typical of the M line. The interior of a used BMW is always more inviting then a used Mercedes and you don't feel like you should take your shoes off first getting into a M. But I'm a function over form and performance oriented person, so YMMV.

The exterior styling of the CLK though is more muscle car looking to my tastes. It needs a speeding ticket just for sitting there. The M6 looks too 'refined and civilized' while the CLK just looks ready to eat someones lunch.

RX7 = rotary.
Mustang = V8.
BMW = I6.

Think that about covers it.
 

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,767
33
81
The MB does look meaner. I think I would take it over the bangled M6.

That V10 needs a better-looking than either the M5 or M6 can provide...and of course minus iDrive.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,389
8,547
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the CLK is much better looking. and the new CL is so hot i want to take it out behind the middle school and get it pregnant.

Meanwhile, the Benz's 6.2-liter V8 takes the classic character of a V8 and pushes the envelope. Sure, this 32-valve DOHC engine belches out 465 lb-ft of torque, but it also does so at 5,000 rpm ? a higher engine speed than is usually seen in an engine with this much displacement.
that's a stupid comment. unless they're looking at diesels instead of gas engines. in which case it's an even stupider comment. not to mention that GM's engine uses pushrods to make similar torque and power numbers. and better em pee gee!
 

Sqube

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2004
3,078
1
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Originally posted by: exdeath
<snip>

Ahh.... that makes sense to me, and I agree with your viewpoint. I think BMW is one of those companies whose history makes it more or less untouchable, like Porsche.
 

Apex

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
6,511
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www.gotapex.com
The MB's engine is far superior to the BMW's in almost every real-world yardstick.

It's also got 1 other big advantage that they didn't seem to really highlight (except for the quick mention in the beginning): DOT-R tires. They make a huge difference over even the best DOT tires, and the Continental ContiSportContact 2 that the M6 is shod with are not great.
 

mcturkey

Member
Oct 2, 2006
133
0
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For the money, the performance isn't very impressive. Obviously both are very luxurious, but for that price, I'd want significantly better performance. The new CTS-V is really going to give these cars a run for their money when it comes to performance, and hopefully the interior will be up to par.

If your engine doesn't make peak torque until 5000rpm, the vehicle better be light as heck. I'd rather see a slightly lower peak, but have it be flat from 2000rpm to near redline. Makes for much smoother driving.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,379
126
When will we see a supercharger aftermarket for that V10 ;)

EDIT: I'd wager that I could get a roots kit slammed in there somehow for less than the $27k price difference between that and the Merc, and I'd get what, an extra 150 hp / 100 torque? Opinions / info?
 

mooncancook

Platinum Member
May 28, 2003
2,874
50
91
Originally posted by: mcturkey
For the money, the performance isn't very impressive. Obviously both are very luxurious, but for that price, I'd want significantly better performance. The new CTS-V is really going to give these cars a run for their money when it comes to performance, and hopefully the interior will be up to par.

If your engine doesn't make peak torque until 5000rpm, the vehicle better be light as heck. I'd rather see a slightly lower peak, but have it be flat from 2000rpm to near redline. Makes for much smoother driving.

I think the performance in acceleration, handing and breaking is impressive for a 4000lb car (specifically the CLK black). The new CTS-V might be able to match it in performance (I doubt it though), but it will not match in built quality, luxury, wow factor, and image. And yes image is kind of important when someone folk over more than 100k on a car. It's kind of like a Z06 can beat a Ferrari twice as expensive, but so what? Cars are aimed at different market.
 

Apex

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
6,511
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www.gotapex.com
Originally posted by: mcturkey
For the money, the performance isn't very impressive. Obviously both are very luxurious, but for that price, I'd want significantly better performance. The new CTS-V is really going to give these cars a run for their money when it comes to performance, and hopefully the interior will be up to par.

If your engine doesn't make peak torque until 5000rpm, the vehicle better be light as heck. I'd rather see a slightly lower peak, but have it be flat from 2000rpm to near redline. Makes for much smoother driving.

That depends on the torque curve. The peak torque can be 8000RPM and it'll still be fine, as long as you have enough torque and the curve is relatively flat.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Originally posted by: Arkaign
When will we see a supercharger aftermarket for that V10 ;)

EDIT: I'd wager that I could get a roots kit slammed in there somehow for less than the $27k price difference between that and the Merc, and I'd get what, an extra 150 hp / 100 torque? Opinions / info?

That V10 is 12.0:1 compression ratio, you're not getting more than 4-6lbs boost. Doubt you would see more than 50-75HP (10-15%) without a bottom end rebuild, which on this car would cost $20,000 just because.

It's also a oversquare short stroke peaky high revving weak bottom end style engine.

bore x stroke = 3.62 x 2.96

Forced induction works best with a square or undersquare long stroke 'stroker' engine where the lengthened mixture expansion duration can work longer on the piston all the way to BDC.

Forced induction trivia:

The idea behind boost isn't that peak pressure is increased, it isn't because the mixture still burns at the same rate regardless of having more mixture, it doesn't all burn at once. So even under boost, the cylinder pressure never sees more than its normal peak pressure. Thats why boost is safe. But because there is more mixture to burn it burns longer, throughout a greater length of the power stroke, particularly the critical period where the crank and rod angle are 90 degress for maximum work advantage. A naturally aspirated engines cylinder pressure will have dropped off significantly from the peak at TDC by this time, where a forced induction engine is still pushing hard.

If you looked at a graph of pressure in the cylinder from a N/A engine and a boosted engine, you would see both reaching their peak as a rapid vertical climb slightly after ignition as the the piston reaches top dead center. From there, the N/A engine will drop off from peak in a rapidly declining curve similar to 1/x as the volume expands, but a boosted engine will show a level linear plot gradually falling from the peak. ie: more area under the curve = more pressure in the cylinder over time, but still never more than peak. Thus the more downward travel (stroke) the piston has to take advantage of that pressure, the more effective boost becomes.

If you like boost, get a 93-98 Supra or a 03-04 Cobra and go to town, then you can smoke either of these cars twice over. :D