Economy:4-4-07 Rich lose confidence in stock market

[brandonbull]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
1. I think the MODs should start locking these insanely long threads and make you create new ones for each tangent.

2. You and all the other anti-free trade people need to learn a little more about economics. Having open markets and free trade is what gives us the thirds highest per capital GDP(PPP) in the world, meaning that we essentially have the third highest standard of living in the world (Luxembourg and Norway are 1 & 2)

It works like this: people in the south Pacific are paid $2 an hour to can tuna fish and therefore I can buy a can of Star-Kist for $.35 at Wal-Mart. Now take away free trade and require that all the tuna stocked on our shelves has to be made in America where the minimum wage is going to be $7+ in two years. What will that do to the cost of tuna? Well if you have ever worked in any sort of business you will know that labor is your largest controllable cost. Triple your labor cost and the price of that can of tuna is going to rise to $1 a can.

So go a head with your little backlash against free trade and require that every thing we buy be made in the US, but don?t complain when the cost of everything doubles overnight.

Looks like you need to stop with logical thought. The chicken littles wish to doom the US to competing with some 12 year old kid sweatshop worker in Vietnam so we can have "Made in the USA" underwear, shoes, rebar, or what ever other item that can be made at a cheap cost.

The US cannot match labor costs nor do other countries care about "fair play" in treatment of their workers or trade. Unless the US is wishing to drop wages, we need to move on and leverage our strengths. The US has one of the most productive work forces in the world and we have the highest pool of skilled/educated workers.

What are other countries going to do if the US decides to stop exporting high tech machines to the rest of the world?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

This week, the Commerce Department said America's trade deficit rose to $764 billion in 2006, as imports outstripped exports by a record amount for a fifth straight year.

To put that number in perspective, I like to ask, "If that $764 billion stayed within our own economy, how many $50,000/year jobs would it represent?" Who knows, but if you divide $764 billion by $50,000 you get 15,280,000. Half of that would be 7,640,000 and a quarter would be 3,820,000. So, if $200,000 of the trade deficit meant one lost $50,000/year job, then the nation has 4 million fewer middle jobs/year.

Another interesting issue, is, how are we paying for this trade deficit? Obviously, since we have the deficit we aren't paying for it by selling enough goods and services in exchange, so aside from IOU's, how are we paying for it? One way might be that we're selling hard assets such as land and capital. (I think Warren Buffet wrote an essay about this where he referred to the U.S. and "Squanderville", then went on to advocate a system of import credits.)

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: brandonbull

There is no reason why the US should still be a country of factories. Our labor is the best educated in the world. Why should we waste our time and money trying to protect something everyone can make?

It almost seems as though you're advocating a mind-body dichotomy. Ideas are wonderful, but they can only take you so far. Ideas are useful for creating wealth, but disembodied ideas do not constitute wealth themselves. It's wonderful to contemplate a time machine, but at some point you need to actually build it.

Real wealth means houses, cars, land, and other physical goods. Is your apartment or house filled with disembodied ideas or manufactured goods?

Of course the nation's economy should produce economically valuable ideas, but it also needs to produce physical wealth. Also, your implicit assumption that a healthy economy will have room for everyone to work in knowledge-based fields is fallacious. Even today the U.S. produces far, far more college graduates and graduates with advanced and professional degrees than the economy can comfortably employ. (Do you know what a "postdoctoral researcher" is?--it's a guy with a Ph.D. who couldn't find a job in his field because of an oversupply of labor so he ends up slaving away for 65 hours/week doing science research for about $30,000/year--his reward for years of study and hard work.)

People that are stuck on the US needing to be "one big steel mill" are the reason we have problems. The same thought process has the US tied up in Iraq and will be for years. The baby boomers still want to fight yesterday's war... today. We should be putting our superior secondary education system and labor pool to use developing new fuels so we can become the new "Middle East of new fuels".

It sounds good, but in reality the economy can only support so many people who engage in research and development.

The other big thing that you're missing is that in today's economy, ideas can be produced anywhere and they cannot be stopped at the border, which makes these jobs susceptible to global labor arbitrage. (Why should we pay a scientist $75,000/year to do biotech research when we can find scientists in Asia who will do it for a mere $25,000/year?) The same goes for computer programming (jobs already outsourced or taken by H-1B and L-1 visa holders).

What the U.S. could really use is high-value-added, high-tech manufacturing in addition to finding a way to retain as many knowledge-based jobs as possible and to protect them from the ravages of global labor arbitrage.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: brandonbull

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
1. I think the MODs should start locking these insanely long threads and make you create new ones for each tangent.

2. You and all the other anti-free trade people need to learn a little more about economics. Having open markets and free trade is what gives us the thirds highest per capital GDP(PPP) in the world, meaning that we essentially have the third highest standard of living in the world (Luxembourg and Norway are 1 & 2)

It works like this: people in the south Pacific are paid $2 an hour to can tuna fish and therefore I can buy a can of Star-Kist for $.35 at Wal-Mart. Now take away free trade and require that all the tuna stocked on our shelves has to be made in America where the minimum wage is going to be $7+ in two years. What will that do to the cost of tuna? Well if you have ever worked in any sort of business you will know that labor is your largest controllable cost. Triple your labor cost and the price of that can of tuna is going to rise to $1 a can.

So go a head with your little backlash against free trade and require that every thing we buy be made in the US, but don?t complain when the cost of everything doubles overnight.

Looks like you need to stop with logical thought. The chicken littles wish to doom the US to competing with some 12 year old kid sweatshop worker in Vietnam so we can have "Made in the USA" underwear, shoes, rebar, or what ever other item that can be made at a cheap cost.

The US cannot match labor costs nor do other countries care about "fair play" in treatment of their workers or trade. Unless the US is wishing to drop wages, we need to move on and leverage our strengths. The US has one of the most productive work forces in the world and we have the highest pool of skilled/educated workers.

What are other countries going to do if the US decides to stop exporting high tech machines to the rest of the world?

PJ never said anything about dropping labor costs int he US. He was simply pointing out what would happen if all you whiners got your way and brought all these jobs back to the states...

 

[brandonbull]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: brandonbull

There is no reason why the US should still be a country of factories. Our labor is the best educated in the world. Why should we waste our time and money trying to protect something everyone can make?

It almost seems as though you're advocating a mind-body dichotomy. Ideas are wonderful, but they can only take you so far. Ideas are useful for creating wealth, but disembodied ideas do not constitute wealth themselves. It's wonderful to contemplate a time machine, but at some point you need to actually build it.

Real wealth means houses, cars, land, and other physical goods. Is your apartment or house filled with disembodied ideas or manufactured goods?

Of course the nation's economy should produce economically valuable ideas, but it also needs to produce physical wealth. Also, your implicit assumption that a healthy economy will have room for everyone to work in knowledge-based fields is fallacious. Even today the U.S. produces far, far more college graduates and graduates with advanced and professional degrees than the economy can comfortably employ. (Do you know what a "postdoctoral researcher" is?--it's a guy with a Ph.D. who couldn't find a job in his field because of an oversupply of labor so he ends up slaving away for 65 hours/week doing science research for about $30,000/year--his reward for years of study and hard work.)

People that are stuck on the US needing to be "one big steel mill" are the reason we have problems. The same thought process has the US tied up in Iraq and will be for years. The baby boomers still want to fight yesterday's war... today. We should be putting our superior secondary education system and labor pool to use developing new fuels so we can become the new "Middle East of new fuels".

It sounds good, but in reality the economy can only support so many people who engage in research and development.

The other big thing that you're missing is that in today's economy, ideas can be produced anywhere and they cannot be stopped at the border, which makes these jobs susceptible to global labor arbitrage. (Why should we pay a scientist $75,000/year to do biotech research when we can find scientists in Asia who will do it for a mere $25,000/year?) The same goes for computer programming (jobs already outsourced or taken by H-1B and L-1 visa holders).

What the U.S. could really use is high-value-added, high-tech manufacturing in addition to finding a way to retain as many knowledge-based jobs as possible and to protect them from the ravages of global labor arbitrage.

So what you are advocating is that the guy sewing together fruit of the loom t-shirts should hold a 4year degree or that the guy shouldn't bother because the US has too many educated people? How long do you think it takes to train a biotech scientist as compared to someone that does desktop support of a person that works ina steelmill?

Why do you think most design work is done in the US and then the manufacturing is done else where?

Very few people that hold college degrees are involved in R&D. Sound like some people wish to have a nation of morons paying $20 for a stick of gum so we can say it's made in the "USA". Time to shut down MIT for a few years so we can clear out the over-educated bums off the unemployment rolls.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: brandonbull
Sound like some people wish to have a nation of morons paying $20 for a stick of gum so we can say it's made in the "USA".

Time to shut down MIT for a few years so we can clear out the over-educated bums off the unemployment rolls.

Sounds like a plan :thumbsup:

 

[Vic]

Who's starting a backlash against free trade? The Chinese? Nope, they're busy buying cars and houses. The Indians? Nope. The Kurds? Nope, they're going to secede from Iraq and form their own country. The Irish? Are you kidding me? The Irish are richer per capita than the Brits now. The Russians? HA! The Venezuelans maybe, but that's because El Presidente Chavez has stolen all their oil wealth and got them to look the other way blaming America at the same time.

There's an odd doublethink among the new left's anti-free market groups. They admit that poverty in America is bad, while seeming to want poverty everywhere else in the world at the same time.

 

[brandonbull]

Originally posted by: Vic
Who's starting a backlash against free trade? The Chinese? Nope, they're busy buying cars and houses. The Indians? Nope. The Kurds? Nope, they're going to secede from Iraq and form their own country. The Irish? Are you kidding me? The Irish are richer per capita than the Brits now. The Russians? HA! The Venezuelans maybe, but that's because El Presidente Chavez has stolen all their oil wealth and got them to look the other way blaming America at the same time.

There's an odd doublethink among the new left's anti-free market groups. They admit that poverty in America is bad, while seeming to want poverty everywhere else in the world at the same time.

Why would the Chinese start a backlash against something they don't do?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: brandonbull
Why would the Chinese start a backlash against something they don't do?

What do you mean by "don't do"? They're one of the largest beneficiaries of free trade, and one of the largest global manufacturers and exporters.
For some reason, there's this lingering belief that China is still communist, yet their real estate market and private homeownership are all going through the roof.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: brandonbull
So what you are advocating is that the guy sewing together fruit of the loom t-shirts should hold a 4year degree or that the guy shouldn't bother because the US has too many educated people? How long do you think it takes to train a biotech scientist as compared to someone that does desktop support of a person that works ina steelmill?

WTF? What did I say to give you that impression? I'm all for Americans working knowledge-based high-value added jobs. However, the economy also needs manufacturing jobs, especially high-value-added high-tech manufacturing jobs. I'm in favor of trade protectionism in order to retain just those types of jobs--such as computer programming--as opposed to importing the work product from overseas).

Why do you think most design work is done in the US and then the manufacturing is done else where?

Eventually the design work will follow the manufacturing. Contrary to popular belief, Americans do not have a god-given monopoly on innovation. Did you know that India is pumping out a couple hundred thousand engineers every year?

Very few people that hold college degrees are involved in R&D. Sound like some people wish to have a nation of morons paying $20 for a stick of gum so we can say it's made in the "USA". Time to shut down MIT for a few years so we can clear out the over-educated bums off the unemployment rolls.

You're making a huge assumption--that trade protectionism would necessarily increase net, total costs. So often in this debate, people only look at the front end costs and completely ignore or are completely unaware of the back end costs. It isn't enough to merely notice that domestically produced shoes might be 25% more expensive than imported shoes; it's also necessary to look at all of the other costs associated with global labor arbitrage. Perhaps it's less expensive to pay 25% more for shoes if that means that wages for the lower classes increase by 30% with an increase in buying power and a decrease in taxes as a result of a decreased need for welfare, prisons, and Medicaid.

People seem to forget that you can't get something for nothing--at least not forever--the imported goods and services have to get paid for by someone, eventually. Perhaps it would make more sense for an American to earn a solid working class wage with health care benefits and a sense of job security while having the government spend less money on welfare, prisons, and Medicaid for that person and his family.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Vic
Who's starting a backlash against free trade? The Chinese? Nope, they're busy buying cars and houses. The Indians? Nope. The Kurds? Nope, they're going to secede from Iraq and form their own country. The Irish? Are you kidding me? The Irish are richer per capita than the Brits now. The Russians? HA! The Venezuelans maybe, but that's because El Presidente Chavez has stolen all their oil wealth and got them to look the other way blaming America at the same time.

Do those nations really expose themselves to global labor arbitrage or do they engage in various forms of trade protectionism?

[/quote]There's an odd doublethink among the new left's anti-free market groups. They admit that poverty in America is bad, while seeming to want poverty everywhere else in the world at the same time.[/quote]

As a former advocate of real laissez-faire capitalism it's hard for me to think of myself as part of the "new left", and I don't think I fall into that category since I advocate a relatively capitalist "American free market".

However, I think you're wrong to conclude that those who advocate trade protectionism and American self interest want "poverty everywhere else in the world". To the contrary, I'm all for economic properity worldwide--just not at Americans' expense. I'd love to see India build a good economy--but from the ground up based on the health of its own internal markets instead of leaching off of the American market.

I don't have a problem with international trade, either. It's just global labor arbitrage that I'm against. I wouldn't have a problem with a system of tariffs that made adjustments for currency manipulation, lax environmental regulations abroad, foreign subsidies, and lower labor and regulatory costs. If a foreign-produced product or service is really better or in actuality less expensive than an American-produced product or service as though it were produced here in the U.S., then by all means let it succeed in the marketplace. However, if the only competitive advantage is labor costs or currency differences or decreased costs from a lack of environmental regulations, etc, then let's adjust the tariff to reflect that.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: Vic
Who's starting a backlash against free trade? The Chinese? Nope, they're busy buying cars and houses. The Indians? Nope. The Kurds? Nope, they're going to secede from Iraq and form their own country. The Irish? Are you kidding me? The Irish are richer per capita than the Brits now. The Russians? HA! The Venezuelans maybe, but that's because El Presidente Chavez has stolen all their oil wealth and got them to look the other way blaming America at the same time.

Do those nations really expose themselves to global labor arbitrage or do they engage in various forms of trade protectionism?

There's an odd doublethink among the new left's anti-free market groups. They admit that poverty in America is bad, while seeming to want poverty everywhere else in the world at the same time.[/quote]

As a former advocate of real laissez-faire capitalism it's hard for me to think of myself as part of the "new left", and I don't think I fall into that category since I advocate a relatively capitalist "American free market".

However, I think you're wrong to conclude that those who advocate trade protectionism and American self interest want "poverty everywhere else in the world". To the contrary, I'm all for economic properity worldwide--just not at Americans' expense. I'd love to see India build a good economy--but from the ground up based on the health of its own internal markets instead of leaching off of the American market.

I don't have a problem with international trade, either. It's just global labor arbitrage that I'm against. I wouldn't have a problem with a system of tariffs that made adjustments for currency manipulation, lax environmental regulations abroad, foreign subsidies, and lower labor and regulatory costs. If a foreign-produced product or service is really better or in actuality less expensive than an American-produced product or service as though it were produced here in the U.S., then by all means let it succeed in the marketplace. However, if the only competitive advantage is labor costs or currency differences or decreased costs from a lack of environmental regulations, etc, then let's adjust the tariff to reflect that.
[/quote]
You're looking at it from a lopsided point of view. Economies are not static, the amount of wealth in the world is not fixed. They're not "leaching off us," it's mutually beneficial, as free trade generally is (who would freely and knowingly enter into a trade agreement that hoses them?). They get more jobs and higher wages than they had before, with massive investment in their infrastructure, we get cheaper goods and open up larger markets that were not previously capable of purchasing our products.
Granted there are larger issues, like the environment as you mentioned, but no amount of tariffs will ever resolve that issue. If they can't be forced to be more green through international pressures, then it is a certainty that with economic advancement and prosperity, their increasingly educated populaces will demand more environmental protection, just like every other developed country in the world already has.

 

[BoomerD]

I'm one of those horrible rotten "USA FIRST" kind of bastards...I go out of my way to buy "Made in the USA", even when it means I pay a bit more for it. When I can't find it made in the USA, I at least buy things made in a "free" country, and ONLY buy things made in China, when I have no options (computer parts & electronics comes to mind first)
Everyone who thinks "free trade" is a good thing must not remember how bad many cities have had it when the local industry shut down, because the company moved to some 3rd world sh*thole, where they can pay 80 cents/day/hour wages, with no benefits. All too often, prices don't drop when they do that, the corporate coffers just get fatter.
Is it a hassle sometimes finding things made in the USA? yes, but IMO, it's worth it. I'm an American worker, and believe in supporting other American workers. Think your job can't be outsourced? HA! Unless you have a "hands-on" kind of job, most likely, some sweat shop in Mexico, or call-center in India could do your job cheaper for the company, just with more hassles for the company, which MIGHT make it less effective for them to do that.
Tech support? We've all seen millions of those jobs disappear. Customer service? Same thing. "Hi, my name is Steve, and I'll ve delighted to ve helping you today." Same with jobs like insurance companies, banking, accounting, etc. Once it becomes more cost effective to send your job overseas than to keep it here, better start polishing the resume.
We, as Americans shold start supporting ourselves, OUR workers, OUR country, and worry LESS about the global economy, because those folks taking our jobs sure don't care about the American economy, as long as it remains good enough to support their jobs.

Buy American when you can.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: brandonbull
Why would the Chinese start a backlash against something they don't do?

What do you mean by "don't do"? They're one of the largest beneficiaries of free trade, and one of the largest global manufacturers and exporters.
For some reason, there's this lingering belief that China is still communist, yet their real estate market and private homeownership are all going through the roof.

*cough* currency *cough*

 

[dmcowen674]

and of course it's the Democrat's fault

2-26-2007 Greenspan warns of likely U.S. recession by end of 2007

He said the U.S. economy has been expanding since 2001 and that there are signs the current economic cycle is coming to an end.
=====================================
Yep and the GOP period of lies and house of cards is coming to an end too.

 

[Genx87]

Werent you one of the dimwits who said 9-11 was all Bush's fault because it happened on his watch? I guess what goes around comes around.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
and of course it's the Democrat's fault

2-26-2007 Greenspan warns of likely U.S. recession by end of 2007

He said the U.S. economy has been expanding since 2001 and that there are signs the current economic cycle is coming to an end.
=====================================
Yep and the GOP period of lies and house of cards is coming to an end too.

Dave you dont think paying $3 a gallon for gas for so long has anything to do with it? You don't think home energy costs skyrocketing has anything to do with it? How about skyrocketing tuition? Rising interest rates?

Trickle down economics doesn't work when the trickles are few and far between (and the drain takes more than whats trickled)

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
and of course it's the Democrat's fault

2-26-2007 Greenspan warns of likely U.S. recession by end of 2007

He said the U.S. economy has been expanding since 2001 and that there are signs the current economic cycle is coming to an end.
=====================================
Yep and the GOP period of lies and house of cards is coming to an end too.

Dave you dont think paying $3 a gallon for gas for so long has anything to do with it?

You don't think home energy costs skyrocketing has anything to do with it?

How about skyrocketing tuition? Rising interest rates?

Trickle down economics doesn't work when the trickles are few and far between (and the drain takes more than whats trickled)

No, Republicans on here say those are bad decisions by the peons.

Don't drive, live in a cardboard box and god forbid don't go to school.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

and of course it's the Democrat's fault

Well, everything that happened while the Republicans were in control was their fault and anyone that dare bring up anything that Clinton did would get jumped on by you and all of your groupies, so it just follows YOUR reasoning that anything that happens while the Dems are in control is all their fault. :laugh:

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
and of course it's the Democrat's fault

2-26-2007 Greenspan warns of likely U.S. recession by end of 2007

He said the U.S. economy has been expanding since 2001 and that there are signs the current economic cycle is coming to an end.
=====================================
Yep and the GOP period of lies and house of cards is coming to an end too.

Dave you dont think paying $3 a gallon for gas for so long has anything to do with it? You don't think home energy costs skyrocketing has anything to do with it? How about skyrocketing tuition? Rising interest rates?

Trickle down economics doesn't work when the trickles are few and far between (and the drain takes more than whats trickled)

Trickle down economics doesn't work period, you'd think that 9 trillion dollars in debt later you'd understand that all it does is increase the burden for future generations, aka mortgaging our future.

The last 6 years have been nothing short of a complete economic farce that has been allowed to continue because Congress refused to investigate the mortgage industry and the buy now pay later image fronted by Bush is coming back to bite us in the arse.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
and of course it's the Democrat's fault

2-26-2007 Greenspan warns of likely U.S. recession by end of 2007

He said the U.S. economy has been expanding since 2001 and that there are signs the current economic cycle is coming to an end.
=====================================
Yep and the GOP period of lies and house of cards is coming to an end too.

HE said it is possible, not likely. But the truth has never got in you way of wanting to report doom and gloom.

 

[dmcowen674]

Just a personal FYI.

I turned the keys in with that business venture I tried for 3 months.

It bled like a stuck pig and out a huge chunk of money but I gave it the old American Dream try anyway.

I was sold that it would at least support itself during the winter, wrong, not by a long shot.

It might be a viable business during the "magical summer" but this time of year it is nothing but a loser.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

How about skyrocketing tuition?

I'm confused. What does skyrocketing tuition have to do with a slowing of the economy? It's not as though we don't already have an oversupply of unemployed and underemployed college graduates to fill in any gaps we might have in the college-educated workforce.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Vic

You're looking at it from a lopsided point of view. Economies are not static, the amount of wealth in the world is not fixed.

I agree with you that wealth does not exist in static quantities and that wealth first has to be produced before it can be begged for or stolen. (Remember, I used to go around hitting people upside the head with hardcover copies of Atlas Shrugged.)

They're not "leaching off us," it's mutually beneficial, as free trade generally is (who would freely and knowingly enter into a trade agreement that hoses them?). They get more jobs and higher wages than they had before, with massive investment in their infrastructure, we get cheaper goods and open up larger markets that were not previously capable of purchasing our products.

And...what do we get? Cheaper goods--at what expense? At the cost of lower middle class and middle class jobs?

If free trade is always necesarily beneficial and if all international trade is necessarily an instance of comparative advantage, then why has our trade deficit been skyrocketing in recent years and why has the U.S. economy failed to produce jobs in import-export sensitive areas? Is it possible that what we are witnessing is not comparative advantage but rather an instance of absolute advantage?

You say that we are opening up their markets to our goods (assuming that these nations would relax their own trade protections), but why would they purchase goods and services produced by expensive American labor when (1) they can produce them less expensively themselves and (2) as a result of having lower wages they couldn't afford to purchase American-produced goods and services in any significant quantity?

Granted there are larger issues, like the environment as you mentioned, but no amount of tariffs will ever resolve that issue. If they can't be forced to be more green through international pressures, then it is a certainty that with economic advancement and prosperity, their increasingly educated populaces will demand more environmental protection, just like every other developed country in the world already has.

Oh--and I would tend to agree with you that eventually, over time, if all of these nations adopted free market economies and that if we had unrestricted international trade that the end result of global labor arbitrage would be an averaging out of the standard of living worldwide and that the standards of living in these other countries could rise to the standard of living in the U.S., preventing any further declines in the standard of living. So, eventually the U.S. wouldn't need to lower its environmental standards in order to compete because other countries would have similarly high standards.

That's just wonderful and it gives us all warm-fuzzy feelings. Unfortunately, because the overwhelming majority of the world's 6.5 billion people are deeply impoverished, it could take centuries before global labor arbitrage becomes an insignificant force and before the American standard of living returns to its previous high. That will be great 300 years from now.

However, in the meantime, if you're going to live the bulk of your adult life over the next 50 years it's going to suck as the U.S. standard of living is dragged down to meet the standard of living in the third world.

Of course, you know my prediction: The United States is going to become an overpopulated, impoverished third world country as a result of the popularly-held morality of altruism, a lack of any sense of rational selfish economic interest, and a failure of the populace to understand basic economic principles while embracing free trade dogma.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
and of course it's the Democrat's fault

2-26-2007 Greenspan warns of likely U.S. recession by end of 2007

He said the U.S. economy has been expanding since 2001 and that there are signs the current economic cycle is coming to an end.
=====================================
Yep and the GOP period of lies and house of cards is coming to an end too.

Dave you dont think paying $3 a gallon for gas for so long has anything to do with it? You don't think home energy costs skyrocketing has anything to do with it? How about skyrocketing tuition? Rising interest rates?

Trickle down economics doesn't work when the trickles are few and far between (and the drain takes more than whats trickled)

Trickle down economics doesn't work period, you'd think that 9 trillion dollars in debt later you'd understand that all it does is increase the burden for future generations, aka mortgaging our future.

The last 6 years have been nothing short of a complete economic farce that has been allowed to continue because Congress refused to investigate the mortgage industry and the buy now pay later image fronted by Bush is coming back to bite us in the arse.

uh....US gov't debt has absolutely NOTHING with trickle down economics...