Economics isn't what it used to be

[Zorkorist]

PS, Zorkorist- Taiwan went to universal healthcare in 1995...

Yeah, hearing less and less from them too.

They, at least have relations with China, an Economic Engine. Japan doesn't/didn't have it.

So maybe we, the US can go down Gracefully, like (following) Taiwan; and not hard like Japan.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

Hi, I am Tiawanese women... can I get you some Chinese tea?

We don't know how to make tea, but obviously we deliver it with pleasure.

You big tippeer... right? American. Fucking Big Tipper!

-John

 

[MotF Bane]

Oh, please. What the Bush Admin and Greenspan's FRB did, in concert, was to promote the biggest asset bubble in the history of finance. They made absolutely no effort whatsoever to contain the manic and *obviously* unsustainable explosion in real estate prices. Hell, they did everything they could to send it to the Moon, Alice!

loooool, you aren't getting it, are you?

 

[MotF Bane]

Correct. I'm right as usual.

No, you're Not.

 

[Jhhnn]

loooool, you aren't getting it, are you?

So fill me in.

I think you're misinformed, Zorkorist, wrt Sino-Japanese relations, and also wrt relations between the PRC and ROC-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Republic_of_China_–_Japan_relations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-Strait_relations

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Most surveys of small companies say that they don't want/need the money. Jsut an FYI

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

loooool, you aren't getting it, are you?

jhnnnn is right though. I don't get it.

 

[MotF Bane]

So fill me in.

In short, you said it yourself, which is why I've been so amused. The Federal Reserve (Greenspan etc.) attempted to control the economy, namely, force growth, and it did produce growth for a while, but now we have to pay for it as it resets.

 

[Zorkorist]

So fill me in.

I think you're misinformed, Zorkorist, wrt Sino-Japanese relations, and also wrt relations between the PRC and ROC-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Republic_of_China_–_Japan_relations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-Strait_relations

I don't think I am... Japanese & Chinese hate esch other = Japan floundering today.

Chinese Government, trying to ignore Taiwan, but Taiwan still has plenty of ins to China. = slower to flounder.

USA... floundering itself in rules and regulations, and taxes.

 

[Craig234]

I don't think I am... Japanese & Chinese hate esch other = Japan floundering today.

Chinese Government, trying to ignore Taiwan, but Taiwan still has plenty of ins to China. = slower to flounder.

USA... floundering itself in rules and regulations, and taxes.

You are being a right-wing parrot, Zorkorist, "rules, regulations and taxes." Utterly thoughtless repitition of the right-wing cult mantra. Not much truth to it at all. You can do better.

Indeed, our problems are the opposite. A lack of rules against big corporate money dominatng elections, a lack of regulations for Wall Street, a lack of taxes on the super-rich who are taking all the growth.

 

[Dari]

I don't think I am... Japanese & Chinese hate esch other = Japan floundering today.

Chinese Government, trying to ignore Taiwan, but Taiwan still has plenty of ins to China. = slower to flounder.

USA... floundering itself in rules and regulations, and taxes.

I don't think you understand Sino-Japanese relation as much as you think you do. The Chinese do not like the Japanese because of what happened during the occupations. They are also fearful of a Japan not held back by America. The Japanese are apprehensive of a rising China, namely one that is undemocratic and occasionally uses xenophobia to deal with outsiders. Also, the two countries have a habit of skewing their respective histories. And China is Japan's #1 export market. That is why they have good relations and why the Japanese Government wants to move away from America and have better relations with the rest of Asia, including China. The Japanese see the West as a declining market and Asia as rising.

 

[Jhhnn]

In short, you said it yourself, which is why I've been so amused. The Federal Reserve (Greenspan etc.) attempted to control the economy, namely, force growth, and it did produce growth for a while, but now we have to pay for it as it resets.

So, uhh, the ideology of the Bush Admin, exploitation of the GSE's for their own ends and non-regulation of lending/investment entities had nothing to do with it?

Yeh, sure, low interest rates played a part, which I acknowledged all along. But that's not the whole story, at all. Any sort of self-regulation, responsibility, or restraint in the whole lending-securitization chain disappeared in the runup to the peak as greed took over. They'd qualify anybody with a pulse, even routed more qualified buyers into more profitable sub-prime adjustable rate short term loans, then worked the securitization magic to render asswipe into supposedly AAA bonds.

They treated mortgages like predatory furniture loans- nothing down, no payments or interest for one year, etc. Any consumer who doesn't pay it off before the rest of the contract kicks in gets screwed, hard. And consumers can support that because most are smart enough to pay it off, and those who don't are obligated to only a small part of their income for a short time. That's not true wrt mortgages, where consumers commit large portions of their income and simply can't pay the balance w/o refinancing.

The FRB didn't have anything to do with that.

 

[Darwin333]

So, uhh, the ideology of the Bush Admin, exploitation of the GSE's for their own ends and non-regulation of lending/investment entities had nothing to do with it?

Yeh, sure, low interest rates played a part, which I acknowledged all along. But that's not the whole story, at all. Any sort of self-regulation, responsibility, or restraint in the whole lending-securitization chain disappeared in the runup to the peak as greed took over. They'd qualify anybody with a pulse, even routed more qualified buyers into more profitable sub-prime adjustable rate short term loans, then worked the securitization magic to render asswipe into supposedly AAA bonds.

They treated mortgages like predatory furniture loans- nothing down, no payments or interest for one year, etc. Any consumer who doesn't pay it off before the rest of the contract kicks in gets screwed, hard. And consumers can support that because most are smart enough to pay it off, and those who don't are obligated to only a small part of their income for a short time. That's not true wrt mortgages, where consumers commit large portions of their income and simply can't pay the balance w/o refinancing.

The FRB didn't have anything to do with that.

Why do you suppose Obama is doing almost exactly the same thing?

 

[Jhhnn]

Why do you suppose Obama is doing almost exactly the same thing?

Almost isn't the same.

Had the situation been allowed to follow its "natural" course, falling precipitously from a speculative peak into a deep trough, almost all of the nation's giant financial conglomerates would be titsup, dead, gone, given that they were leveraged clear to hell and back in violation of what would be regarded as reasonable reserves even in a non-speculative market scenario.

They're basically zombies at this point, the walking dead, being animated by govt money. so credit is still flowing, if at a reduced level from the manic peak, and life goes on as close to normal as it can get given the underlying rot...

The objective is to slow losses to a rate that the system can handle, let normal market forces clear out the crap, reach a stable if lower equilibrium, hopefully start building from there.

Whether that'll work or not is still not a sure thing. No matter how slowly those losses are realized or how well they're buried at the moment, they will be realized, and they are unbelievably huge.

Partially or completely deregulated capitalism is basically a bipolar economy that's gone off its meds... first the delicious and wonderful manic high, now the descent into a depressed state. Can't have one without the other.