E85 (flex fuel) optimization

[RU482]

There are a number of vehicles on the road now that are E85 compatible....meaning that they can burn gasoline, or any ethanol mix up to ~85%.

It's pretty well known that even though these vehicles can run on E85, the wind up taking a rather large hit on the miles per gallon one can drive.

I am curious what would need to be done to, for example, a flex fuel 05 Ford Taurus, to optimize the engine for E85. By optimize, I mean make the engine run it's best on E85.

thoughts?

 

[mafia]

A conversion kit. Details of how it works are here:


http://flexfuelusa.org/how_works.html

EDIT: For optimization of an already E85 vehicle, then you would need to program it. Most likely a 05 taurus will have a conversion kit, and to optimize would most likely require some programming of the system which injects the fuel into the engine.

 

[Ronstang]

E85 is kind of a joke. The only way you are going to optimize an engine for E85 is raising the compression ratio and tweeking the timing curve. With flex fuel cars the only thing you are going to be able to do is increase the timing some which will raise the MPG while running the E85 mixture but you still get overall less MPG than gasoline. I doubt it is even cost effective. For E85 to be a decent fuel the engine would have to be purpose built for it and then would not be able to run on regular gasoline.

 

[RU482]

E85 is kind of a joke. The only way you are going to optimize an engine for E85 is raising the compression ratio and tweeking the timing curve. With flex fuel cars the only thing you are going to be able to do is increase the timing some which will raise the MPG while running the E85 mixture but you still get overall less MPG than gasoline. I doubt it is even cost effective. For E85 to be a decent fuel the engine would have to be purpose built for it and then would not be able to run on regular gasoline.

ok, let's take the conversation further. What would it take to build an E85 specific engine from the ground up?

 

[jlee]

Turbos like E85..

 

[Ronstang]

Turbos like E85..

Yes, but how often during normal driving are you under boost? During normal cruising you are getting worse mileage than regular gasoline.

 

[jlee]

Yes, but how often during normal driving are you under boost? During normal cruising you are getting worse mileage than regular gasoline.

Oh sure...requires more fuel (especially on boost). It's the equivalent of much higher octane than regular pump gas, though.

 

[EightySix Four]

Mmm ethanol... with an E25 or so blend (fuel system doesn't like pure E85), I can run 20 degrees timing under 23 psi boost.

 

[waffleironhead]

I thought the mpg loss was due to the less energy available in E85 versus typical unleaded. Even tweaking the engine shouldnt change too much should it?

 

[jlee]

A. 76,000 = BTU of energy in a gallon of ethanol
B. 116,090 = BTU of energy in a gallon of gasoline

http://zfacts.com/p/436.html

 

[ElFenix]

I thought the mpg loss was due to the less energy available in E85 versus typical unleaded. Even tweaking the engine shouldnt change too much should it?

tweaking would improve it, but yes the overall problem is that there's less energy.

 

[desy]

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2010/05/25/479977.html

 

[PricklyPete]

I don't get the whole ethanol thing...well at least ethanol made from corn. Maybe I'm mistaken, but this is all I see:

1) Create copious amounts of fertilizer from fossil fuels
2) Create government subsidies that encourage the overgrowth of corn using copious amounts of fertilizer created in step 1
3) Create ethanol from all the extra corn
4) Go through an energy intensive process to create ethanol...most likely burning more fossil fuels to do so
5) Run cars not really built for E85 causing worse mpg than if we just used gas to begin with

And didn't the government provide additional subsidies to make ethanol prices more in line with gas prices...or am I remembering that wrong.

Wouldn't it just be easier to use the fossil fuels directly instead of going through this song and dance?

 

[coxmaster]

Ive seen an EVO IX that was fully prepped and converted to E85. It made tons more power than stock, and IIRC all he had to do was replace the fuel systems and get it tuned for E85.

 

[Throckmorton]

I don't get the whole ethanol thing...well at least ethanol made from corn. Maybe I'm mistaken, but this is all I see:

1) Create copious amounts of fertilizer from fossil fuels
2) Create government subsidies that encourage the overgrowth of corn using copious amounts of fertilizer created in step 1
3) Create ethanol from all the extra corn
4) Go through an energy intensive process to create ethanol...most likely burning more fossil fuels to do so
5) Run cars not really built for E85 causing worse mpg than if we just used gas to begin with

And didn't the government provide additional subsidies to make ethanol prices more in line with gas prices...or am I remembering that wrong.

Wouldn't it just be easier to use the fossil fuels directly instead of going through this song and dance?

Ethanol takes almost as much fossil fuel to make as it replaces as fuel, while at the same time using a huge amount of land. It's an environmentally destructive SCAM.

There is no reason for anyone to use corn ethanol as fuel, EVER.

 

[jlee]

Ive seen an EVO IX that was fully prepped and converted to E85. It made tons more power than stock, and IIRC all he had to do was replace the fuel systems and get it tuned for E85.

Because 'tuned for E85' is essentially 'tuned for race gas'...with a turbocharged motor, you can do a lot with that.

 

[coxmaster]

Because 'tuned for E85' is essentially 'tuned for race gas'...with a turbocharged motor, you can do a lot with that.

yeah thats true.

 

[PricklyPete]

Ethanol takes almost as much fossil fuel to make as it replaces as fuel, while at the same time using a huge amount of land. It's an environmentally destructive SCAM.

There is no reason for anyone to use corn ethanol as fuel, EVER.

This is the impression that I'm getting...pretty sad given all the attention it gets. I'm no authority on the matter...but it just doesn't seem "renewable" AT ALL.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Ethanol takes almost as much fossil fuel to make as it replaces as fuel, while at the same time using a huge amount of land. It's an environmentally destructive SCAM.

There is no reason for anyone to use corn ethanol as fuel, EVER.

Let me guess - you buy into the Pimentel BS. Meh.. I've posted and posted and posted the info over in the other forum. Not going to mess this one up with debating the issue.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

As to the OP. Yeah, you can get/do chip mods that help but overall you're not going to do any better than finding a blend that gets you the best efficiency. On my flexfuel T&C it's right about 40%, which is approx 50% 89 octane gas(cheap stuff not the premium) and 50% E85. Now keep in mind that E85 is really anything over 70% ethanol. Also keep in mind that you need to be looking at cost per mile - not mpg.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Brazil does it right. They use sugar cane to make ethanol. A much higher yield per ton of plant mass, and easier to convert than corn. Corn as a biofuel was a pure ploy to put money into farmers pockets.

 

[desy]

Yes EROI is 7-1 on cane 1.2-1 on corn

 

[PricklyPete]

Brazil does it right. They use sugar cane to make ethanol. A much higher yield per ton of plant mass, and easier to convert than corn. Corn as a biofuel was a pure ploy to put money into farmers pockets.

farmer's pockets...or the pockets of the companies that use corn as a raw material?

 

[Throckmorton]

Let me guess - you buy into the Pimentel BS. Meh.. I've posted and posted and posted the info over in the other forum. Not going to mess this one up with debating the issue.

Link?

http://www.grist.org/article/ethanol-the-net-energy-debate-returns

 

[desy]

OK here's link to the improvement of corn ethanol, so now its up to 2.3 X its energy input. Still a long way from a windmill at 20X or oil 30-40 X

From the USDA June of 2010, so its CURRENT

"This latest report says that "the net energy balance of corn ethanol has increased from 1.76 BTUs to 2.3 BTUs of required energy" since 2004. "

http://www.theatlantic.com/food/arc...nol-more-efficient-still-unsustainable/60026/

They go on to say EROEI of 28 is possible down the road which would put it viable competition with lots of other energy products