E2140 vs. X2 3600+ on mATX boards

[hurtstotalktoyou]

So, it seems the entry-level market has once again turned over into a new phase. With the release of the E2140, you can now get an Allendale CPU for under $100. But, there's a problem....

Entry-level is typically associated with integrated graphics (dedicated cards add $40 or more to the formula), but I can't find any reasonably-priced integrated boards which can even begin to tap into the overclocking potential of the E2140. The best I can find is the Gigabyte GA-945GZM-S2, which Newegg users have reported taking no higher than FSB278. So that means I shouldn't expect much more that 2.23 GHz (278x8) from the E2140.

For the same price as the GA-945GZM-S2 and E2140 ($142 shipped), however, one can purchase a Brisbane 3600+ and Biostar TForce TF7025-M2. The latter has been reported to overclock extremely well, with two of thirteen NewEgg reviewers reporting taking their 3600+s to 2.8-2.9 GHz.

So this sort of throws a wrench into the equation. Sure, the E2140 is faster when taken to its 2.8-3.2 GHz potential, but to do that you'd need to buy at least a GA-945P-S3 and dedicated video card--pushing the price up to $199, which is an entirely different price point.

Which, then, is faster: a Brisbane 3600+ @ 2.8-2.9 GHz, or an Allendale E2140 @ 2.2-2.3 GHz?

 

[Avalon]

I'd have to say the Brisbane at those speeds would be faster.

 

[harpoon84]

The Brisbane @ 2.8 - 2.9GHz should be slightly faster than the E2140 @ 2.2 - 2.3GHz overall. The 'Allendale Pentiums' have around a 20% clock for clock advantage over the Brisbanes which puts a 2.8 - 2.9GHz Brisbane at around ~2.4GHz Pentium E levels.

One thing in the favor of the E2140 is that you can make do with cheaper RAM when attempting an overclock. A 275FSB overclock would only require DDR2-550 capable RAM, which means any old DDR2-533 would be sufficient. The X2 3600+ would need DDR2-800 to attain good performance.

 

[myocardia]

Originally posted by: harpoon84
One thing in the favor of the E2140 is that you can make do with cheaper RAM when attempting an overclock. A 275FSB overclock would only require DDR2-550 capable RAM, which means any old DDR2-533 would be sufficient. The X2 3600+ would need DDR2-800 to attain good performance.

Well, there's $10-11 saved.

 

[harpoon84]

Originally posted by: myocardia

Originally posted by: harpoon84
One thing in the favor of the E2140 is that you can make do with cheaper RAM when attempting an overclock. A 275FSB overclock would only require DDR2-550 capable RAM, which means any old DDR2-533 would be sufficient. The X2 3600+ would need DDR2-800 to attain good performance.

Well, there's $10-11 saved.

In Australia, there's a good $50 (~$US40) difference between DDR2-667 and DDR2-800, perhaps prices are different in the US or elsewhere in the world.

 

[MarcVenice]

On newegg, 2gb of ddr800 comes for 80$ AR, 2gb of ddr 533 comes for 65$ or so. Not worth skimping 15$ on

 

[BitByBit]

The new Core 2 Pentiums take a fair hit from their reduced cache size, as Brisbane seems to be able to roughly match their IPC in most games.

Review

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Hmm... I didn't think about the memory. Still, I doubt it would make a great impact, and here's why:

We're talking entry-level, and that probably means 1GB to start. Now, the Wintec AMPO memory has been getting stellar reviews, yet it's possibly the cheapest memory around--quite a marvel, I'd say. The 1GB (2x512MB) Wintec AMPO DDR2-533 is $40, and DDR2-800 is $45. With only $5 difference, I wouldn't think there'd be any need even in the entry-level market to skimp on DDR2-533 even if overclocking wouldn't be impaired. Moreover, I think it's worth $5 to avoid bottlenecking an overclock even if it's not likely you'd take it too far above FSB-266.

So, either way, I think DDR2-800 would be the best choice--and even if one opts for DDR2-533 on the Intel platform, that's still only $5 difference.

Thanks for the responses so far, guys.

By the way, if anyone has more information on the overclocking potential of the GA-945GZM-S2, feel free to let me know. The Newegg reviews were helpful, but not exceedingly so.

 

[f4phantom2500]

if you can get a full size board why not get a full size g965 board?

EDIT:

oh, i just got my brisbane 3600 rig up and running, oc'ed to 2.85GHz (300*9.5) without problems (on tforce 550). you don't *need* really fast RAM to get it that high, if i set it to ddr2 400 it will be like 285MHz. if i set it to ddr2 533 it would be like 407 or so. in any case, it's plenty fast for me lol.

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Originally posted by: f4phantom2500
if you can get a full size board why not get a full size g965 board?

Because G965 boards start at $95, and can't overclock until you reach $110 or so. That's $50 more than the GA-945GZM-S2, and anyway, at that price you might as well get a GA-945P-S3 and dedicated 7100GS.

EDIT:

oh, i just got my brisbane 3600 rig up and running, oc'ed to 2.85GHz (300*9.5) without problems (on tforce 550). you don't *need* really fast RAM to get it that high, if i set it to ddr2 400 it will be like 285MHz. if i set it to ddr2 533 it would be like 407 or so. in any case, it's plenty fast for me lol.

TForce 550 or TForce 550 SE?

 

[imported_OrSin]

I ran into a similar problem wiht price and preformance. The other to think about is the 945 chipset is very old and not very good (at least comparied to the new one out). Also the intergrated graphics for AMD is so much better then the intels.

My price piont was a little higher so it was between the E4400 and the X2 4400.
I ended up going with the C2D although think the AMD would have been the ebtter choose for now. I wanted to the room to upgrade and i got a decent deal on a intel barebones systems. All in AMD is very competitive if not the better buy at the low to mid end.
And really except for us gaming freaks no one needs anything better. I know a professionals do but they are even less in number then us gamers.

 

[f4phantom2500]

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou

Originally posted by: f4phantom2500
if you can get a full size board why not get a full size g965 board?

Because G965 boards start at $95, and can't overclock until you reach $110 or so. That's $50 more than the GA-945GZM-S2, and anyway, at that price you might as well get a GA-945P-S3 and dedicated 7100GS.

EDIT:

oh, i just got my brisbane 3600 rig up and running, oc'ed to 2.85GHz (300*9.5) without problems (on tforce 550). you don't *need* really fast RAM to get it that high, if i set it to ddr2 400 it will be like 285MHz. if i set it to ddr2 533 it would be like 407 or so. in any case, it's plenty fast for me lol.

TForce 550 or TForce 550 SE?

550 se. what's the big difference? i checked biostar's site, and it looks like the only diff is the se has 8 channel audio and the regular 550 has 6 channel. are there any other differences? when i bought it from newegg they didn't specify; it just said 550, but i got the 550 se.

EDIT: also if you're really that concerned about getting a good ocing board and video card and processor for cheap, isn't this a pretty good board?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16813138074

throw that with a brisbane 3600 and you'll be set (assuming that board oc's as well as i think it should, do some research on that). like i said, mine at 2.85ghz is plenty fast for me. plus if you go am2, you'll have a solid upgrade path until like 2009. but, unless i'm mistaken, you won't have that big of a choice for very long if you just go with a p965 board.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I'm in the same boat as the OP - trying to decide on AMD vs Intel when it comes to micro-atx boards with integrated graphics. I've ordered a matx case that is low-profile, so I'd like to stick with the onboard graphics as much as possible, and I want to optimize the price/performance and overall system balance.

It seems that matx A64 AM2 boards have the edge on the Intel LGA775 matx boards, thus far.

I wish I knew how various integrated graphics solutions stacked up against each other. Time for a matx/integrated graphics roundup, perhaps?

 

[montypythizzle]

I got a Brisbane 3600 at 2.7ghz on stock volts. I have C2D performance

 

[SupersoniX]

For systems with integrated graphics actually the Athlon 64 X2 3600+ Brisbane is a better choice. First by the X2 3600+'s price, second for the IGP options for both platforms (GeForce 7050's performance is much better than GMA 950.). Consideer that the AMD platform have more options for low-cost motherboard with IGP and this options are more cheaper than Intel platform, for this case, AMD platform is the choice!

 

[firewolfsm]

You don't need good memory for K8 chips because using memory dividers doesn't hit performance noticeably, has Intel brainwashed all of you?!?!?

 

[harpoon84]

Originally posted by: firewolfsm
You don't need good memory for K8 chips because using memory dividers doesn't hit performance noticeably, has Intel brainwashed all of you?!?!?

http://anandtech.com/memory/showdoc.aspx?i=2800&p=7

Before calling people brainwashed, it helps to be not brainwashed yourself.

 

[firewolfsm]

o.0

Damn, maybe it was just 939?

I do not remember that at all.

 

[Trevante]

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou
So, it seems the entry-level market has once again turned over into a new phase. With the release of the E2140, you can now get an Allendale CPU for under $100. But, there's a problem....

Entry-level is typically associated with integrated graphics (dedicated cards add $40 or more to the formula), but I can't find any reasonably-priced integrated boards which can even begin to tap into the overclocking potential of the E2140. The best I can find is the Gigabyte GA-945GZM-S2, which Newegg users have reported taking no higher than FSB278. So that means I shouldn't expect much more that 2.23 GHz (278x8) from the E2140.

For the same price as the GA-945GZM-S2 and E2140 ($142 shipped), however, one can purchase a Brisbane 3600+ and Biostar TForce TF7025-M2. The latter has been reported to overclock extremely well, with two of thirteen NewEgg reviewers reporting taking their 3600+s to 2.8-2.9 GHz.

So this sort of throws a wrench into the equation. Sure, the E2140 is faster when taken to its 2.8-3.2 GHz potential, but to do that you'd need to buy at least a GA-945P-S3 and dedicated video card--pushing the price up to $199, which is an entirely different price point.

Which, then, is faster: a Brisbane 3600+ @ 2.8-2.9 GHz, or an Allendale E2140 @ 2.2-2.3 GHz?

Dude.... forget going AMD at all.

Go get a Gigabyte GA-G33M-DS2R and some DDR2-1066 RAM and you can easily hit 400 FSB and higher.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16813128053

Yes it is kind of expensive but it'll be the best mATX mobo you can get right now...the Asus P5K-VM is also coming out soon, and it also has a G33 chipset and is also a good overclocker. I believe both have integrated video too.

FYI, the reason why you need DDR2-1066 is that for some reason the Gigabyte doesn't have a 1:1 divider, so you'll need 1066 RAM to get better overclocks. From what I've read, the Asus has a 1:1 divider, so you'd be able to use cheaper DDR2-800 RAM and get good overclocks on it.

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
I'm in the same boat as the OP - trying to decide on AMD vs Intel when it comes to micro-atx boards with integrated graphics. I've ordered a matx case that is low-profile, so I'd like to stick with the onboard graphics as much as possible, and I want to optimize the price/performance and overall system balance.

It seems that matx A64 AM2 boards have the edge on the Intel LGA775 matx boards, thus far.

I wish I knew how various integrated graphics solutions stacked up against each other. Time for a matx/integrated graphics roundup, perhaps?

Well, according to the comments delivered thus far, it seems the Biostar/AMD path is the best way to go. Still, the Gigabyte/Intel combo has its merits. Consider:

1. The superiority of the 3600 depends entirely on its ability to reach 2.8 GHz, yet that is far from guaranteed.
2. If the E2140 can be clocked to 2.4 or 2.5 GHz, which may be possible with the Gigabyte board mentioned above, then it has a fair chance of matching or even beating the Brisbane even at 2.9 GHz.
3. The Gigabyte board has three PCI slots, as opposed to only two for the Biostar board. This can mean a great deal if you need to use more than two add-on devices. For example, my main rig has a second LAN card, dedicated sound and 56K modem.
4. Although I can't be sure of this, I suspect the E2140 would run cooler and draw less power than the 3600.

Even so, I'd say the Biostar/AMD platform has an edge, as demonstrated below:

1. Even if the 3600+ can only reach 2.6 GHz, it is still likely to match the performance of the E2140 @ the expected 2.2 GHz.
2. Even if the E2140 hits 2.5 GHz, it is unlikely to overtake the 3600+ @ the expected 2.8 GHz by any significant measure.
3. Although the Biostar board has only two PCI slots, it has two very nice alternative options: a PCIe x1 slot and four to ten (usually six) USB ports.
4. The Biostar board has four memory slots, as opposed to Gigabyte's two.
5. The GeForce 7025 GPU should outperform the Intel GPU.
6. The Biostar board has a DVI port for crisper LCD graphics.
7. The Biostar board supports RAID

Yes, I think I'd go for Biostar/AMD.

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: TrevanteDude.... forget going AMD at all.

Go get a Gigabyte GA-G33M-DS2R and some DDR2-1066 RAM and you can easily hit 400 FSB and higher.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16813128053

Yes it is kind of expensive but it'll be the best mATX mobo you can get right now...the Asus P5K-VM is also coming out soon, and it also has a G33 chipset and is also a good overclocker. I believe both have integrated video too.

FYI, the reason why you need DDR2-1066 is that for some reason the Gigabyte doesn't have a 1:1 divider, so you'll need 1066 RAM to get better overclocks. From what I've read, the Asus has a 1:1 divider, so you'd be able to use cheaper DDR2-800 RAM and get good overclocks on it.</end quote></div>

Thanks for the suggestion, but I think you didn't quite catch my point: It's not to get an mATX board, but to get an inexpensive platform (which basically requires an integrated board). For the price of the Gigabyte GA-G33M-DS2R + E2140 + DDR2-1066, I'd rather get a Gigabyte GA-945P-S3 + 7100GS + E4300 + DDR2-800.

Yet the idea, here, is to keep the total cost for CPU+GPU+board to under $150--and at that price point, AMD seems to be the best choice by a noticeable margin.

 

[magreen]

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou

Originally posted by: TrevanteDude.... forget going AMD at all.

Go get a Gigabyte GA-G33M-DS2R and some DDR2-1066 RAM and you can easily hit 400 FSB and higher.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16813128053

Yes it is kind of expensive but it'll be the best mATX mobo you can get right now...the Asus P5K-VM is also coming out soon, and it also has a G33 chipset and is also a good overclocker. I believe both have integrated video too.

FYI, the reason why you need DDR2-1066 is that for some reason the Gigabyte doesn't have a 1:1 divider, so you'll need 1066 RAM to get better overclocks. From what I've read, the Asus has a 1:1 divider, so you'd be able to use cheaper DDR2-800 RAM and get good overclocks on it.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I think you didn't quite catch my point: It's not to get an mATX board, but to get an inexpensive platform (which basically requires an integrated board). For the price of the Gigabyte GA-G33M-DS2R + E2140 + DDR2-1066, I'd rather get a Gigabyte GA-945P-S3 + 7100GS + E4300 + DDR2-800.

Yet the idea, here, is to keep the total cost for CPU+GPU+board to under $150--and at that price point, AMD seems to be the best choice by a noticeable margin.

Well said. :thumbsup:

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: harpoon84
One thing in the favor of the E2140 is that you can make do with cheaper RAM when attempting an overclock. A 275FSB overclock would only require DDR2-550 capable RAM, which means any old DDR2-533 would be sufficient. The X2 3600+ would need DDR2-800 to attain good performance.

Nah, most AMD boards have ratios that let you run DDR2-400 even, so for even basic functionality you can get by with the cheapest stuff. On a few Intel boards I've tried, with an 800MHz FSB CPU in it the BIOS won't let you use anything below "533MHz" setting. You have to do the BSEL mod to get by that issue.

Originally posted by: Trevante
Go get a Gigabyte GA-G33M-DS2R and some DDR2-1066 RAM and you can easily hit 400 FSB and higher.

Yes it is kind of expensive but it'll be the best mATX mobo you can get right now...

OMG, people were discussing the merits of saving $15 to get DDR2-667 instead of DDR2-800, and here you come along saying, "oh, just spend $60 more on the motherboard and $60 more on the RAM." If you're gonna spend that much, then why get an E2140/E2160 with only 1MB cache. How about the E4X00 series with 2MB cache, or even the E6X20 series with 4MB cache - it's only a few bucks more while you're at it.

Soon the budget $300 system will be a budget $550 system. :roll:

There is an alternative for cheap and overclockable Core 2 Duo boards. ASRock makes the ConRoe1333-DVI/H board using the 945G chipset. Sure integrated video isn't as good, but if you HAVE to have a Core 2 Duo for cheap and HAVE to overclock... Newegg $86 shipped but I got mine at Mwave for about $5 less shipped. It has an officially supported overclocking mode to FSB 1333 at 333MHz BIOS setting, and some have gotten it as high as around 350MHz BIOS, which is probably around the highest that 945G boards can go. This will put the E2140 at around 2.6GHz. The board has 8 channel HD audio, four RAM slots PCI-E 16x slot and comes with a PCI-E DVI card (which uses the onboard GPU).

I have one of these boards and have played around with it, plus have read up on it (what little information there is). The voltage settings in BIOS are really sparse, but there's a chipset voltage option which is how it can clock so high for a 945G. It also has vDIMM. It does not, however, have vCore so if you need more CPU voltage you will have to pin mod it. Also, to effectively overclock it past 266MHz in BIOS you HAVE to have a CPU that is FSB 1066, or BSEL pin modded to that speed. Then you can crank it up to 333MHz or more.

If only ASRock implemented a FSB strap setting (or even jumper) and some vCore, this would be the perfect CHEAP overclocking C2D board. As it is, I don't think you can get any better for anywhere near the price. Closest would be that risky AMD chipset Abit board at around $30 more which is notorious for just keeling over and dying.