E15 gasoline

[996GT2]

Are the listed MPG ratings for cars calculated using 100% pure gasoline or the E10 that's found in most gas stations in the country?

 

[LTC8K6]

Ethanol is less energy-dense than gasoline, so a stoichiometric burn requires more fuel.

At every station I've seen, E85 has had dedicated pumps just like diesel does.

Yeah, it would only be the blend pumps that do that.

EPA suggests a 4 gallon minimum purchase with multi-blend pumps.

IIRC, blender pumps are not uncommon for making ethanol blends, or even for creating the different octane grades on the fly.

As for how the E10 gets it's octane rating, they take lower octane gasoline, such as 84, and add 10% ethanol to create 87 octane fuel.

 

[BUTCH1]

Uh. 'E15,' also known as 'standard pump gas,' doesn't damage shit. Gas in my area has had 10-20% ethanol for years.

Damaged valve seats from 15% ethanol? Give me a fucking break.

What must valve seats in E85 motors be made of? Christ-anium?

edit: Not to seem like a total prick here, but damn...this just reeks of someone with an agenda. Supposedly 10% ethanol is fine, but 15% causes all kinds of damage? I highly doubt there is some ethanol 'critical mass.'

I think it'd parts like fuel pumps, evap hoses things like that, it might be OK for your car, it might not, the problem is using the US consumer as the "guinea pig" to find out what (if any) problems will arise.

 

[desy]

I'd expect 5 % worse with E15 but I'd only run E15 in Turbo engines which should actually benefit mileage as its the appropriate octane

 

[xBiffx]

I'd expect 5 % worse with E15 but I'd only run E15 in Turbo engines which should actually benefit mileage as its the appropriate octane

My F-150 Eco suffers a 10% mileage hit when I use 10% ethanol. That and its complete dog off the line. Engines need to be tuned to see any benefits.

 

[Brian Stirling]

My F-150 Eco suffers a 10% mileage hit when I use 10% ethanol. That and its complete dog off the line. Engines need to be tuned to see any benefits.

What year is you F-150? The energy content of E10 is about 3.2% less than E0 so there's no way you would see a 10% reduction in mileage unless you have a really old truck that doesn't adjust very well.

E10 fuel, while providing lower mpg will actually provide greater HP owing to the oxygen in the fuel resulting in a mild supercharging effect. Now you may have issues off the line if, once again, you have an old truck that doesn't know much about the fuel.


Brian

 

[JulesMaximus]

Most cars since 2000 are OK.

The problems are in first generation direct-injection systems. The pump and injector materials can be pitted by corrosion from the ethanol, and as these devices are ultra-high precision, you can get significant problems.

Toyota/Lexus recalled a whole bunch of GDI models including 2008 MY vehicles because they found that E15 was corroding the injection pumps and swarf from the pumps was plugging the injectors.

My 2012 Camry says right on the gas cap not to use anything greater than E10.

 

[xBiffx]

What year is you F-150? The energy content of E10 is about 3.2% less than E0 so there's no way you would see a 10% reduction in mileage unless you have a really old truck that doesn't adjust very well.

E10 fuel, while providing lower mpg will actually provide greater HP owing to the oxygen in the fuel resulting in a mild supercharging effect. Now you may have issues off the line if, once again, you have an old truck that doesn't know much about the fuel.


Brian

2013. Engines are tuned to reduce knock, not get maximum HP. As such, timing is advanced until knock is detected and then its backed off just a bit. This doesn't bode well for a direct injected turbo charged engine when ethanol is introduced to increase the octane rating of a shitier, lower octane fuel.

 

[jlee]

2013. Engines are tuned to reduce knock, not get maximum HP. As such, timing is advanced until knock is detected and then its backed off just a bit. This doesn't bode well for a direct injected turbo charged engine when ethanol is introduced to increase the octane rating of a shitier, lower octane fuel.

You're seeing a 10% mileage hit compared to manufacturer's claim, or compared to when you run 100% gasoline?

 

[xBiffx]

You're seeing a 10% mileage hit compared to manufacturer's claim, or compared to when you run 100% gasoline?

All measured by me. I'll do a few tanks for 87 E10 and a few tanks of 91 E0.

Either way, I get within the range of what the sticker says, 15 city, 21 highway and 18 combined, depending on the time of year (winter blows for mpg).

 

[jlee]

All measured by me. I'll do a few tanks for 87 E10 and a few tanks of 91 E0.

Either way, I get within the range of what the sticker says, 15 city, 21 highway and 18 combined, depending on the time of year (winter blows for mpg).

If you're going to compare, you need to compare with equivalent octane. You have a turbocharged truck that's going to need to pull a lot of timing and/or run lower boost to run on 87 compared to 91.

 

[soccerballtux]

All measured by me. I'll do a few tanks for 87 E10 and a few tanks of 91 E0.

Either way, I get within the range of what the sticker says, 15 city, 21 highway and 18 combined, depending on the time of year (winter blows for mpg).

I had similar experience. I don't know exact numbers, but seems to have been about 7-10%. It's hard to find around here

 

[xBiffx]

If you're going to compare, you need to compare with equivalent octane. You have a turbocharged truck that's going to need to pull a lot of timing and/or run lower boost to run on 87 compared to 91.

I haven't run much 87 E0 because the pricing is stupid compared to 91. From the little I have used it, it showed similar results.

The issue is that 87 E10 is 84 octane with ethanol to boost. Both E0 octanes are pure gas of that octane. Like I said, E10 is shitier gas to start with so there's no surprise for results I get.

Also, the ethanol creates more oxygen, which in turn creates more heat. The engine compensates by adding more fuel. In a direct inject engine that means not all the fuel gets burned, hence the lower MPG.

 

[LTC8K6]

My 2012 Camry says right on the gas cap not to use anything greater than E10.

IIRC, the EPA tried to claim that mfgs couldn't void warranties over E15 because they never specifically warned owners about it.

So then you started seeing specific warnings, like on your gas cap.

 

[jlee]

I haven't run much 87 E0 because the pricing is stupid compared to 91. From the little I have used it, it showed similar results.

The issue is that 87 E10 is 84 octane with ethanol to boost. Both E0 octanes are pure gas of that octane. Like I said, E10 is shitier gas to start with so there's no surprise for results I get.

Also, the ethanol creates more oxygen, which in turn creates more heat. The engine compensates by adding more fuel. In a direct inject engine that means not all the fuel gets burned, hence the lower MPG.

wat?

E85 causes a dramatic cooling effect compared to gasoline due to the cooling properties of additional fuel. That's the first I've heard of E10 causing more heat (or "creating more oxygen"), for that matter. Nitrous oxide will create oxygen..

Maybe there's something I don't understand? I did the whole fuel/timing map for my MR2, but I am not aware of this property of direct injection.

Please explain to me this "fuel creates oxygen which makes more heat so the engine adds more fuel", because that's not how engines, ECUs, or oxygen sensors generally work.

 

[JulesMaximus]

IIRC, the EPA tried to claim that mfgs couldn't void warranties over E15 because they never specifically warned owners about it.

So then you started seeing specific warnings, like on your gas cap.

I HATE Ethanol in gas. It fucked up the gas tank on my Ducati (along with every Ducati made in the last 10 years) and it has been a huge problem for any motorcycle manufacturer using plastic fuel tanks.

FUCK ETHANOL. 😡

 

[jlee]

I HATE Ethanol in gas. It fucked up the gas tank on my Ducati (along with every Ducati made in the last 10 years) and it has been a huge problem for any motorcycle manufacturer using plastic fuel tanks.

FUCK ETHANOL. 😡

YOU LEAVE MY CORN FUEL ALONE! 😡

 

[Wuzup101]

It is normal to see slightly less fuel economy using E10 as compared to pure gasoline simply because of the reduced energy content in E10 vs pure gasoline. Ethanol has a lower energy density (as another poster stated above). That doesn't mean it's inferior to pure gasoline. It's generally a bit cheaper so while the MPG rating is less so is the MP$. The difference in fuel economy should only be 3-4%.

Jlee is right about the cooling properties of high ethanol blends (E85/E98). However, generally modern engines aren't tuned to take advantage of any cooling properties that may be gained from E10. They generally have a high and low octane map and generally even the high octane map will run on 91-93 while the ECU will start to pull timing when knock is detected (this is often a dynamically changing value based on the severity (frequency) of the knock and is an interpolated value based on both the low and high octane maps). Flex fuel vehicles, designed to work on E85, typically have larger injectors and pumps capable of handling the increased fuel volume needed to support E85. They also have an ethanol sensor that helps them determine the ethanol ratio in the fuel (E85 can vary from 5X% to 8X% and still be called E85). Tuning on 85 is more difficult than E10 or pure gas because the ethanol content can vary so much (this is especially true with cars that do not have a flex fuel sensor). Normal gas engines don't typically gain any extra HP from ethanol blends (I'm talking about lower content blends like E10 here) because they don't have a way to add more timing to take advantage of any cooling properties (as they would be slight). That's with stock ECU programming (you can tune most of them to run on E85 or whatnot just fine - but you'll have 1 map or set of maps for E85 and another set for normal gas... and generally you have to reflash, map switch manually... where as a flex fuel car could do this itself).

While I'm not a huge supporter of E10 blends, just because it's E10 doesn't mean it's "bad gas." My complaints would be mostly on the gov subsidies for ethanol production to begin with. My Evo will run fine on both 93E0 and 93E10. I would LOVE to see good quality E85 (i.e. at very steady ethanol %s) available in more locations. I wouldn't tune for it currently because winter blends are too different from summer blends, and you just can't find the stuff in some areas (there is 1 new station carrying it where I am... 1 station in like 50 miles). Given the lower range due to reduced energy per unit volume... it's not practical for me. If I was using my car as just a track car... I would go out of my way to come up with a good source... or just start buying toluene by the barrel.

Edit: this doesn't address material compatibility issues that may (depending on what the manufacture used to being with) arise from using fuel with significant ethanol content. Converting a car from normal gas to E85 is generally going to require some sort of modification. Sometimes it's just a larger fuel system (injectors/pump) which is generally also there to allow for increased HP applications. Sometimes it includes other things for compatibility sake (changing line material, filter material, etc...). Obviously older cars may have more problems because ethanol wasn't used back in the day. I doubt that there is any auto manufacturer selling new cars in the US market that doesn't design their fuel system to work with E10... that would be silly.

 

[Wuzup101]

I HATE Ethanol in gas. It fucked up the gas tank on my Ducati (along with every Ducati made in the last 10 years) and it has been a huge problem for any motorcycle manufacturer using plastic fuel tanks.

FUCK ETHANOL. 😡

That's a mistake on the manufacturer's end. If almost all gas in a country that you want to market to is E10... you better design something to be run with E10. If you don't, shit will happen... shit that you will have to fix. This isn't a case of OLD motorcycles that have issues with E10 (though they can/do). This is a case of a manufacturer who simply ignored it after it was widespread.

If you really are worried about it, it's pretty easy to phase separate ethanol out of E10. All you need is a splash of good old H2O.... You could make your own E0 gas (at a slightly lower octane of course... maybe blend in some toluene if you need it higher lol). Okay so not something you probably are going to do!

 

[uclaLabrat]

Water and ethanol can create an acid in the combustion chamber. Formic acid. So, valve seat wear and bearing damage is not out of the question.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English...obil/Oil_Best_for_Engines_Using_E85_Fuel.aspx

I'm going to go out on a limb and say water and formic acid will do absolutely nothing to your engine that isn't already happening

 

[LTC8K6]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say water and formic acid will do absolutely nothing to your engine that isn't already happening

Sure, take the risk. It's your engine(s). Just don't force the rest of us to take the chance. 😀

 

[xBiffx]

wat?

E85 causes a dramatic cooling effect compared to gasoline due to the cooling properties of additional fuel. That's the first I've heard of E10 causing more heat (or "creating more oxygen"), for that matter. Nitrous oxide will create oxygen..

Maybe there's something I don't understand? I did the whole fuel/timing map for my MR2, but I am not aware of this property of direct injection.

Please explain to me this "fuel creates oxygen which makes more heat so the engine adds more fuel", because that's not how engines, ECUs, or oxygen sensors generally work.

I'm not talking about E85. There is a huge difference between E10 and E85 and also a huge difference in the engines and their mappings. Wuzup does a pretty good job of explaining.

 

[JulesMaximus]

That's a mistake on the manufacturer's end. If almost all gas in a country that you want to market to is E10... you better design something to be run with E10. If you don't, shit will happen... shit that you will have to fix. This isn't a case of OLD motorcycles that have issues with E10 (though they can/do). This is a case of a manufacturer who simply ignored it after it was widespread.

If you really are worried about it, it's pretty easy to phase separate ethanol out of E10. All you need is a splash of good old H2O.... You could make your own E0 gas (at a slightly lower octane of course... maybe blend in some toluene if you need it higher lol). Okay so not something you probably are going to do!

No, there is simply nothing they can do about it. The materials you can make fuel tanks out of is dictated by safety administrations. Ducati has replaced fuel tanks under warranty and they have tried different formulas but ultimately I think they will have to go back to metal fuel tanks because of this shit we put in our gasoline. It is not just Ducati either, it is Triumph, MV Agusta, and other makes as well. They all source their fuel tanks from a company called Acerbis.

I'm completely against ethanol in fuel.

 

[desy]

So you use a lower octane fuel in a turbo engine?
There is the problem, not E10, turbos are meant to run more efficient on higher octane fuel which is what you are doing when you go to 91 Octane

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating
A fuel with a higher octane rating is less prone to auto-ignition and can withstand a greater rise in temperature during the compression stroke of an internal combustion engine without auto-igniting, thus allowing more power to be extracted from the Otto-Cycle.
Many high-performance engines are designed to operate with a high maximum compression, and thus demand fuels of higher octane. A common misconception is that power output or fuel

However, burning fuel with a lower octane rating than that for which the engine is designed often results in a reduction of power output and efficiency. Many modern engines are equipped with a knock sensor (a small piezoelectric microphone), which sends a signal to the engine control unit, which in turn retards the ignition timing when detonation is detected. Retarding the ignition timing reduces the tendency of the fuel-air mixture to detonate, but also reduces power output and fuel efficiency. Because of this, under conditions of high load and high temperature, a given engine may have a more consistent power output with a higher octane fuel, as such fuels are less prone to detonation efficiency can be improved by burning fuel of higher octane than that specified by the engine manufacturer

 

[jlee]

I'm not talking about E85. There is a huge difference between E10 and E85 and also a huge difference in the engines and their mappings. Wuzup does a pretty good job of explaining.

Yes, he did. His explanation was nothing like what you said. 😉 Again:

Please explain to me this "fuel creates oxygen which makes more heat so the engine adds more fuel", because that's not how engines, ECUs, or oxygen sensors generally work.