E15 gas warning

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realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
E85 saves me a hell of a lot of $$$ on my 2014 automobile.
E85 is currently @ $1.99.
But no, should be common knowledge not to use ethanol in cars not made for ethanol.
And there are different grades of gas containing ethanol, some cars can use none of them, some cars most of them, and some cars all of them.
Oh. And never put ethanol in a lawn mower. Naturally.

It takes 1.39 gallons to equal the same energy in 1 gallon of gasoline. If you take 1.99 * 1.39 you get $2.76, or 2.77 if you round up. I dont know where you live, but the national average gasoline price is currently 2.77.

What is the MPG of the gasoline engine of your vehicle and what is the price difference?
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
E85 saves me a hell of a lot of $$$ on my 2014 automobile.
E85 is currently @ $1.99.
But no, should be common knowledge not to use ethanol in cars not made for ethanol.
And there are different grades of gas containing ethanol, some cars can use none of them, some cars most of them, and some cars all of them.
Oh. And never put ethanol in a lawn mower. Naturally.

E85 has less energy density ya ding dong.

The prices are actually fairly in line between methanol, ethanol and gasoline of any blend. Most ignition ECU's could be tuned to use a blend of any of the above. The lower price is because of the lower energy density. The savings are small if any when you really calculate it out.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
It takes 1.39 gallons to equal the same energy in 1 gallon of gasoline. If you take 1.99 * 1.39 you get $2.76, or 2.77 if you round up. I dont know where you live, but the national average gasoline price is currently 2.77.

What is the MPG of the gasoline engine of your vehicle and what is the price difference?

This guy gets it.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
No it doesn't... Here is what happens...

- It has a tendency to absorb moisture more so than non-ethanol gas. This happens partly in the 1 gallon or 2.5 gallon can that people use to store their mower gas. This also means it gums things up faster over time then non-ethanol gas.

- In combination with the above, it tends to wreak havoc on the fuel delivery system of the small engine. In my case, a small B&S 3.5 mower fuel pump. That membrane is adversely affected by ethanol infused gas.

So... How do we deal with this?

- Treat your gas with a gas treatment formulated for ethanol fuels. It does help with what the fuel does to various gaskets and such, but at least you reduce part of the gumming issue.
- With the above, only buy enough gas for one month of mowing.... Not the whole freakin season's worth.
- Properly winterize your lawn equipment as you should be doing anyway.
- Perhaps Briggs and Stratton can sell some carb parts that aren't bothered by ethanol? Is that too freaking much to ask of them? Ethanol has only been around for eons now.

What I do?
I just buy my mower gas from a station that has a non-ethanol pump/supply. Haven't had carb issues in a few years now. With ethanol I was pulling the carb on my small mower once a year.
Not being argumentative at all here. I never have these problems. I keep 15 gallons of gas on hand at all times to run the generator because we have frequent power outages. I use that same gas to run the mower. I go through about 5 gallons every six weeks or so mowing and I do attempt to rotate the cans filling up the empty at the earliest opportunity. The generator always has a full five in it. I do try to drain and put fresh in it in the spring and in the fall but it sits in there for around six months and always starts up when needed.

I hear what you're saying here all the time and I believe it to be true but what's different about the gas here in Michigan I don't know. I just never have problems. I don't even use a fuel stabilizer. I top off the mower when it gets stored for the season to reduce condensation in the tank and I just put whatever gas in it I have on hand. It sits December through April for sure and sometimes two to four weeks longer. It starts right up just like the generator. I've not run the chainsaw for sometimes a year or even two and it starts up but that is a 2-stroke mix and I'm not certain if there is a stabilizer in that oil.

Something here is different but I don't know what.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Sugar beats can produce 2.5 times the ethanol per acre than corn can. The problem is that sugar beats are considerably more difficult to cultivate. That coupled with the fact that corn farmers who harvested for feed/food already are equipped to harvest for ethanol which makes it hard for other crops to become viable.
Good point. BUt we could harvest switchgrass using the same equipment as wheat or oats.

Long story short, I ended up on a chainsaw forum doing some troubleshooting and a chainsaw freak there had like 40-50 chainsaws. He found that even saws he'd put new gas line on that should have tolerated E10 were turning soft after a couple of years. Investigating, he bought an ethanol test kit and it turns out that while most of the gas was right around the E10 level, some of the gas that was marketed as having 'up to E10 content' actually had well over E10, talking E15 or higher.

Not a fan of the ethanol mandate, so obviously not a fan of E10. But the Gov pushing E15 - and that's exactly what it will be, it won't be a suggestion, they'll effectively get their E15 way in areas that already have had E10 - is going to lead to circumstances where people are going to get well over the soon to be worse E15. Ahh Big Gov...
The Outboard Manufacturers Association tested three different representative outboards (from 7.5 hp to 300 hp IIRC) on E15. At the end of the 200 hour test, two of the motors were torn down and found to have been essentially destroyed. The third outboard blew up before finishing the test. Moral: Do not run high output engines on E10 or especially E15 unless they are designed for that and you are going to rebuild them quite often.

It takes 1.39 gallons to equal the same energy in 1 gallon of gasoline. If you take 1.99 * 1.39 you get $2.76, or 2.77 if you round up. I dont know where you live, but the national average gasoline price is currently 2.77.

What is the MPG of the gasoline engine of your vehicle and what is the price difference?
I tested my own vehicles using real gasoline from the place where I gas up my bike and found very little difference between full gasoline and E10, less than 1 MPG or 4% - 5%. It's also worth remembering that the other popular oxygenate is MTBE, which is extremely persistent environmentally. I'm all for running pure gasoline where needed, but I'm not sure whether on balance it's actually better or worse environmentally.
 

unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
3,346
1
0
infographicfixed.jpg


Ethanol industry very good for politicians...

Politicians get $30 million a year in lobbying. Not to mention campaign contributions...

Citizens get higher prices...

Isn't that the way politics works? Or, depending on your perspective, doesn't work...

Uno
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
E85 has less energy density ya ding dong.

The prices are actually fairly in line between methanol, ethanol and gasoline of any blend. Most ignition ECU's could be tuned to use a blend of any of the above. The lower price is because of the lower energy density. The savings are small if any when you really calculate it out.

How much subsidy does Ethanol get to keep the price down? I know they used to subsidize it heavily. But not sure if they are still in place.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Correction: It was the National Marine Manufacturers Association and it was a 300 hour test. http://www.jsonline.com/business/ne...engines-industry-engineers-say-132968333.html

Makers of outboard marine engines say scores of their products could be ruined if consumers use a fuel mix that contains a higher level of ethanol.

On Tuesday, an engineer from Fond du Lac-based Mercury Marine Corp. is scheduled to testify before a congressional committee that recent engine tests showed severe damage to Mercury products run on a 15% blend of ethanol that's coming to market soon.

The tests showed that three outboards run on an E15 fuel blend were damaged to the point of engine failure, according to the National Marine Manufacturers Association.

Makers of other smaller engines, used on equipment such as lawn mowers, snow throwers and all-terrain vehicles, also have said they believe that a higher ethanol blend in gasoline - scheduled for introduction as early as this fall - could result in catastrophic damage to those products.

Overheating and engine performance issues are among the problems that face owners of outdoor power products if they're mistakenly fueled with E15.

In the Mercury Marine tests, paid for by the Department of Energy, a 200-horsepower outboard engine broke down after less than 300 hours of continuous operation, at full throttle, on the biofuel blend.

"The bearings on a piston disintegrated," said John McKnight, director of environmental and safety compliance for the National Marine Manufacturers Association.

An identical engine powered by gasoline without ethanol was not damaged in the industry-standard test, according to McKnight.

A 300-horsepower Mercury outboard, one of the company's most expensive engines, sustained valve damage after 280 hours of testing, while an identical engine running on gasoline without ethanol wasn't damaged.

A small 9.9-horsepower engine running on ethanol completed the test but also was damaged.

"It was running very poorly," McKnight said. "The results of the testing reinforce the recreational boating industry's significant concern that E15 is not a suitable fuel for marine engines. We expect that additional testing will reveal similar real concerns to fuel tanks and fuel systems."

'Blaze orange warning'

Most gasoline now contains up to 10% ethanol, which is made from corn. The Environmental Protection Agency has approved a 15% blend for newer-model cars and trucks, but it has not extended the fuel waiver to vehicles manufactured before 2001.

It also has not approved the 15% blend for small engines.

"Even as an ethanol guy, my advice to Mercury would be to tell people not to use E15 in their outboard engines," said Ron Lamberty, senior vice president of the American Coalition for Ethanol.

Not only shouldn't they use the 15% blend, it would be a violation of federal law if they did, according to Lamberty.

"There's going to be a blaze orange warning label on the fuel pump," he said.

The biofuels industry has pushed hard for higher ethanol blends in gasoline, saying it's a source of renewable fuel and provides additional income for corn growers.

"We need lawmakers with a broader vision, and a policy discussion that goes beyond engine performance," said Josh Morby, executive director of the Wisconsin Bio Industry Alliance.

The Mercury Marine test is not considered statistically significant, since it used only a handful of outboard engines.

And the tested engines were not calibrated to run on E15, ethanol supporters say.

Ideally, gasoline stations will have fuel dispensers where the consumer could choose an ethanol blend, advocates say, ranging from 10% to E85, which is 85% ethanol. It comes down to consumer choice, they say, and people should have the right to choose whatever fuel they want based on price and engine requirements.

Checking labels

Choosing the wrong fuel by mistake is a big concern, according to small-engine makers.

E15 could damage more than 200 million pieces of outdoor power equipment that were not designed to run on ethanol content higher than 10%, according to the Outdoor Power Equipment Institute, which represents Wisconsin engine manufacturers Briggs & Stratton Co. and Kohler Co.

It's potentially disastrous for boat owners if they put the 15% ethanol blend in their boat's fuel tank while filling the tank of their late-model car or truck.

"I don't think people are naturally inclined to look at all of the labels on a fuel pump to make sure they are putting in the right amount of ethanol," said Mercury Marine spokesman Steve Fleming.

Biofuel advocates say consumers are smart enough to choose the right fuel, and that engine makers should improve their products rather than complain about ethanol.

Small-engine makers say they're testing isobutanol as an alternative to E15.

Like ethanol, it can be made from corn and other organic feedstock. Also, Briggs & Stratton engines tested with a 16% blend of isobutanol in gasoline were not damaged.

Briggs is encouraged by the test results, Todd Teske, chairman, president and CEO said in a news release Friday.

There are 70 million Briggs & Stratton engines that could be adversely affected by E15, according to the company.

"We are very interested in alternative fuels that do not cause damage to the substantial number of engines in use today while lessening the country's dependency on foreign oil," Teske said.
 

5to1baby1in5

Golden Member
Apr 27, 2001
1,250
109
106
I wish I could do that here, I haven't found a single station in Denver like this.

Now starting in the fall I put the smallest amount of gas in the tank every time and just run it till it's dry or like you said, every spring I was pulling the carb.

The Ethanol in gasoline eats up soft parts. As the concentration increases, the damage gets worse. Old engines use cheaper materials like Nitrile (Buna-N) for O-rings which Ethanol eats up very quickly. The soft part absorbs the EtOH and swells. It then falls apart.

Newer engines us other soft parts which are more compatible with Ethanol. Viton is a good example. It is more expensive, but holds up to Ethanol very well.

Here is a chemical compatibility link.
http://www.coleparmer.com/Chemical-Resistance

During the summer months, oxygenated fuel is required by state environmental reg's. You won't find any non-EtOH fuel then. You can find non-oxygenated fuel during fall/winter/spring. They used to use MTBE as the oxygenate, which didn't cause problems with older engines, but it kept finding its way into the drinking water supplies.

So, in Colorado, buy your gas in winter and stabilize it for later use in summer.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
I tested my own vehicles using real gasoline from the place where I gas up my bike and found very little difference between full gasoline and E10, less than 1 MPG or 4% - 5%. It's also worth remembering that the other popular oxygenate is MTBE, which is extremely persistent environmentally. I'm all for running pure gasoline where needed, but I'm not sure whether on balance it's actually better or worse environmentally.

That would seem reasonable. You figure that Ethanol has about 50% of the energy of gasoline per unit. So if you used E10 which is 90% gasoline and 10% Ethanol, then E10 should have about 5% less energy.

Then you factor in that a gallon of Ethanol weights about a little more than gasoline and it all adds up.

If we can find a way to produce Ethanol in a way that uses less energy than getting gasoline, then great. Right now we cannot do that. It takes more energy to produce 1 gallon of Ethanol vs 1 gallon of Gasoline. Maybe if ethanol engines use less energy it could be offset, but so far as I know that is not currently the case.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
Correction: It was the National Marine Manufacturers Association and it was a 300 hour test. http://www.jsonline.com/business/ne...engines-industry-engineers-say-132968333.html

"There's going to be a blaze orange warning label on the fuel pump," he said."

And right there is the problem. All it takes, as we've seen with Clean Diesel and VW 2.0L HPFP fuel pumps as a prime example, is for fuel delivery to not completely empty the tanker truck, and/or, have a less than spec mis-fuel at the depot the truck fills at, and what ends up at the gas station is out of spec. Maybe not so bad for one use, or maybe it will be. If not, there is still damage done, extra wear incurred. After some years worth of those, premature serious wear has incurred and now the user is into fix or replace mode when with <= E10, they wouldn't be. The pump these people fill up with will be the non-"blaze orange" but the damage will be done regardless...and unless someone tests the gas at each fill accurately (and, zero will ever do that), there will be no way to know, or prove, why the damage was done. So the gas station, tanker deliver, and depot (along with the Gov and the ethanol industry pushing this) all get off the hook scott free.

All so the Gov and the corn industry can get E15 - something no one except them wants. Brilliance...
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
No it doesn't... Here is what happens...

- It has a tendency to absorb moisture more so than non-ethanol gas. This happens partly in the 1 gallon or 2.5 gallon can that people use to store their mower gas. This also means it gums things up faster over time then non-ethanol gas.

- In combination with the above, it tends to wreak havoc on the fuel delivery system of the small engine. In my case, a small B&S 3.5 mower fuel pump. That membrane is adversely affected by ethanol infused gas.

So... How do we deal with this?

- Treat your gas with a gas treatment formulated for ethanol fuels. It does help with what the fuel does to various gaskets and such, but at least you reduce part of the gumming issue.
- With the above, only buy enough gas for one month of mowing.... Not the whole freakin season's worth.
- Properly winterize your lawn equipment as you should be doing anyway.
- Perhaps Briggs and Stratton can sell some carb parts that aren't bothered by ethanol? Is that too freaking much to ask of them? Ethanol has only been around for eons now.

What I do?
I just buy my mower gas from a station that has a non-ethanol pump/supply. Haven't had carb issues in a few years now. With ethanol I was pulling the carb on my small mower once a year.

So you say it doesn't mess up small engines, then go on and list all the ways it messes with small engines.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
In related news, you can now buy Tygon LP-1200 fuel line, which as far as I know has the most ethanol resistance out right now.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
I thought this was common knowledge. Maybe it's not seen often outside of the corn belt.
 

WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
68
91
So you say it doesn't mess up small engines, then go on and list all the ways it messes with small engines.

An engine is considered what exactly? The crank? The valves? The pistons? The rods?

I specifically said it fucks up the fuel delivery system... It doesn't seize the engine, prevent spark, etc.
 

WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
68
91
Not being argumentative at all here. I never have these problems. I keep 15 gallons of gas on hand at all times to run the generator because we have frequent power outages. I use that same gas to run the mower. I go through about 5 gallons every six weeks or so mowing and I do attempt to rotate the cans filling up the empty at the earliest opportunity. The generator always has a full five in it. I do try to drain and put fresh in it in the spring and in the fall but it sits in there for around six months and always starts up when needed.

I hear what you're saying here all the time and I believe it to be true but what's different about the gas here in Michigan I don't know. I just never have problems. I don't even use a fuel stabilizer. I top off the mower when it gets stored for the season to reduce condensation in the tank and I just put whatever gas in it I have on hand. It sits December through April for sure and sometimes two to four weeks longer. It starts right up just like the generator. I've not run the chainsaw for sometimes a year or even two and it starts up but that is a 2-stroke mix and I'm not certain if there is a stabilizer in that oil.

Something here is different but I don't know what.

I hear you. Case in point... I have a 3.5 mower, a 6.5 mower/bagger and a 5+ pressure washer. All have Briggs and Stratton engines. The one which has all the problems with ethanol? The 3.5. I've hardly ever had to mess with the others other than my standard winterizing. The 3.5 is my primary mower. I know that seems odd, but the dam thing is 12 years old, runs great and it is a source of pride that my neighbors on their 3rd $400 push mower while I'm still running this $105 3.5 around the yard.

Since I've gone non-ethanol only, that 3.5 hasn't has a single issue. Now the only big different between here in NC and there in Michigan is the level of humidity we get though conversely we have a short winter.

So... I don't know. I know regionally there are different seasonal gas blends mandated by the EPA and or each state.
 

Pulsar

Diamond Member
Mar 3, 2003
5,224
306
126
Just wait. A whole lot of people are going to be putting this into their boat engines without realizing it......
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
That would seem reasonable. You figure that Ethanol has about 50% of the energy of gasoline per unit. So if you used E10 which is 90% gasoline and 10% Ethanol, then E10 should have about 5% less energy.

Then you factor in that a gallon of Ethanol weights about a little more than gasoline and it all adds up.

If we can find a way to produce Ethanol in a way that uses less energy than getting gasoline, then great. Right now we cannot do that. It takes more energy to produce 1 gallon of Ethanol vs 1 gallon of Gasoline. Maybe if ethanol engines use less energy it could be offset, but so far as I know that is not currently the case.
Agreed. Brazil has an excellent ethanol program with sugar cane. We don't have nearly as much land suitable for sugar cane, and it tends to be prime real estate. We can grow sorghum though in lots of places.

"There's going to be a blaze orange warning label on the fuel pump," he said."

And right there is the problem. All it takes, as we've seen with Clean Diesel and VW 2.0L HPFP fuel pumps as a prime example, is for fuel delivery to not completely empty the tanker truck, and/or, have a less than spec mis-fuel at the depot the truck fills at, and what ends up at the gas station is out of spec. Maybe not so bad for one use, or maybe it will be. If not, there is still damage done, extra wear incurred. After some years worth of those, premature serious wear has incurred and now the user is into fix or replace mode when with <= E10, they wouldn't be. The pump these people fill up with will be the non-"blaze orange" but the damage will be done regardless...and unless someone tests the gas at each fill accurately (and, zero will ever do that), there will be no way to know, or prove, why the damage was done. So the gas station, tanker deliver, and depot (along with the Gov and the ethanol industry pushing this) all get off the hook scott free.

All so the Gov and the corn industry can get E15 - something no one except them wants. Brilliance...
That is a good point. One could conscientiously avoid E15 and yet still get a high concentration of it through bad luck.

So you say it doesn't mess up small engines, then go on and list all the ways it messes with small engines.
E10 and even E15 target low output engines in very specific ways. It isn't just displacement. E15 in particular is death on high output engines because it burns slowly and thus tends to burn Pistons and valves. It isn't something inherent to the fuel, as alcohol dragsters run pure alcohol very well with high compression and short overlap timing.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
Ethanol and forcing ethanol (at the cost of consumers) to be blended into gasoline is the biggest fraud ever hoisted onto Americans under the false guise of being an environmentally friendly and reducing emissions fuel/policy.

dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls


Ethanol fuels ozone pollution

Running vehicles on ethanol rather than petrol can increase ground-level ozone pollution, according to a study of fuel use in São Paulo, Brazil.


http://www.nature.com/news/ethanol-fuels-ozone-pollution-1.15111

http://www.latimes.com/science/scie...zone-levels-brazil-20140501-story.html#page=1

http://www.northwestern.edu/newscen...ent-with-switch-from-ethanol-to-gasoline.html

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2009/december14/ozone-ethanol-health-121409.html

Refining ethanol may release more of some pollutants than burning it in vehicles

After quantifying the airborne emissions from the nation&#8217;s third largest ethanol refinery, a team led by NOAA and University of Colorado&#8211;Boulder researchers has found that for some gases, refining ethanol releases more to the atmosphere than previously thought&#8212;and in some cases more than is ultimately released by burning the fuel in vehicles. The emissions can contribute to the formation of ozone, a regulated pollutant that can affect human health. Results are published online in the Journal of Geophysical Research.

http://research.noaa.gov/News/NewsA...-emissions-from-a-large-ethanol-refinery.aspx
 
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natto fire

Diamond Member
Jan 4, 2000
7,117
10
76
If only there was some sort of EMF induction based motor. Which could provide instant torque, and had fewer rotating parts.