Dutch to Prosecute Alleged Saddam Supplier

[Alistar7]

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - Prosecutors said Tuesday they will charge a Dutch chemicals dealer as an accomplice to genocide for supplying Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) with lethal chemicals used in the 1988 chemical attack on a Kurdish town that killed an estimated 5,000 civilians.

The United Nations (news - web sites) suspects van Anraat was a major chemical supplier to Saddam's regime, having made 36 separate shipments, including mustard gas and nerve gas originating from the United States and Japan, prosecutors said.

Thiodyglycol can be used in the production of mustard gas. It also has industrial uses in the textile industry, though not in the large volumes Anraat is accused of shipping. The U.S. government had banned its export to Iraq.

Anraat "knew the destination and ultimate purpose of the materials he was shipping," prosecutors said.

"The (Halabja) attack is an example of Hussein's policy of systematic destruction of the Kurdish population," prosecutors said in van Anraat's indictment. "It appears from official Iraqi documents that the operation was intended by Hussein's government to wipe out the Kurds."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/ne...;cid=518&ncid=1473



So these must be some of the US "supplied" chemical weapons. The operation being directed by Iraq confuse me though, I could swear some here have told me Iran carried out those attacks......

 

[yllus]

If anyone was planning on protesting possible innocence on Hussein's regime's part in this, keep in mind that quantity is an identifier all on its own. 300 tons of Thiodyglycol? In small quantities, it's used to make the ink for ball-point pens. That's a lot of ball-point pens. 😛

Between the same time period, the Iraqi poison gas plant Samarra was constructed by a West German firm (over U.S. protests) and spit out chemical agents such as mustard gas, Sarin, Tabun, and VX for use against Iran and the Kurds. That ain't no coincidence.

 

[Alistar7]

Some facts just can't be spun to defend their fantasy world anti-Bush anti-US BS, their routine other choice, as will be the case here, is to ignore it completely.

 

[Alistar7]

Did Saddam's UN declaration accurately denote all of those weapons including their final disposition to the satisfaction of the weapons inspectors?

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
Did Saddam's UN declaration accurately denote all of those weapons including their final disposition to the satisfaction of the weapons inspectors?

Anyone, seems to me there are a TON of self proclaimed experts in this matter.....

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: Alistar7


So these must be some of the US "supplied" chemical weapons. The operation being directed by Iraq confuse me though, I could swear some here have told me Iran carried out those attacks......

I don't want to fight about this since you have a Republican need to see Saddam propped up as the super boogeyman but
I am curious to know how much you have really read about Halabja? and the reports by our own govt that blame the deaths on Iran... ?

 

[JackStorm]

Originally posted by: Alistar7

Originally posted by: Alistar7
Did Saddam's UN declaration accurately denote all of those weapons including their final disposition to the satisfaction of the weapons inspectors?

Anyone, seems to me there are a TON of self proclaimed experts in this matter.....

For once I'm inclined to agree with you. Where is everyone? 😛

And no, I'm no expect in this matter. I've yet to get enough info on this subject to deside one way or the other.

Also, the "Lets help our boys and girls in iraq" thread seems awful quite considering how many people claim to care about the troops.

Maybe people just aren't paying attention to the forum today? But then again, that wouldn't explain why other more trivial threads keep getting bumped.

 

[JackStorm]

Originally posted by: dahunan
but I am curious to know how much you have really read about Halabja? and the reports by our own govt that blame the deaths on Iran... ?

Yeah, so much conflicting information and disinformation going on it's hard to know what the truth is.

 

[syzygy]

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: Alistar7


So these must be some of the US "supplied" chemical weapons. The operation being directed by Iraq confuse me though, I could swear some here have told me Iran carried out those attacks......

I don't want to fight about this since you have a Republican need to see Saddam propped up as the
super boogeyman but I am curious to know how much you have really read about Halabja? and the
reports by our own govt that blame the deaths on Iran... ?

i don't want to fight about this since you have a liberal need to see saddam propped up as a saint
on piles of corpses but i am curious to know how much survivor testomony you have read, how
much of the int'l human rights reviews of the incident you have read, and how much of the debunking
of pelletiere's insane account (yes, dear, the crux of the dubious 'our own govt' point you made above)
you have read ?

in order for pelletier to reach his pro-saddam conclusions, he needed to ignore important evidence,
not to mention dismiss outright all the testimonies of countless survivors taken from dozens of other
villages who were targeted as part of saddam's anfal operation, so he could piece together a very
sinister denial of true culpability that rings familar to anyone who has dealt with liberals for any
length of time.

ny review of books - pelletiere shamed

The War College authors cite unnamed "experts" as saying the symptoms described by the Kurds
do not conform to any known chemical or combination of chemicals. But US government experts
consulted by the Senate mission said that the symptoms described were consistent with the use of
mustard gas, as well as some fast-acting lethal agent, possibly nerve agents or cyanide.

These findings were supported in congressional testimony by Dr. Robert Cook-Deegan of Physicians
for Human Rights, who led a medical team to eastern Turkey. Contrary to the assertion of the War
College authors, this team of doctors was able to examine actual victims of the attacks, and found
injuries resulting from blistering agents.

Even more extraordinary is their attempt to suggest that the US Congress provoked the
invasion of Kuwait by imposing sanctions on Iraq. In fact, Congress had not enacted sanctions
by the time Iraq invaded Kuwait on August 2. It seems far more likely that Saddam Hussein went
ahead with the invasion because he believed the US would not react with anything more than verbal
condemnation.

pelleterie is/was a shill for saddam who was highly selective of the evidence he used and just as
selective in which he chose not to use. he framed his findings in language stunts that played to
saddam's favor, and best of all, ignored the testimony of the actual victims. and there were many
of them. not to mention the internal iraqi evidence that came to light, known as the anfal campaign.

here is the human right watch report on the incident. sorry, saddam is not spared. nor is pelleterie.
hrw report - whatever happened to the iraqi kurds ?

oh, and if you choose to dismiss all survivor testimonies, will you trust the word of a ba'athist, a
self-incrimintating ba'athist at that, complicitous in a genocidal campaign ?

izzat ibrahim - saddam's right hand man has this to say . ..

" If you have forgotten Halabja, we are ready to repeat the operation "

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: Alistar7


So these must be some of the US "supplied" chemical weapons. The operation being directed by Iraq confuse me though, I could swear some here have told me Iran carried out those attacks......

I don't want to fight about this since you have a Republican need to see Saddam propped up as the super boogeyman but
I am curious to know how much you have really read about Halabja? and the reports by our own govt that blame the deaths on Iran... ?

Voted for Kerry, Gore, Clinton, and Perot in the last 4, but nice assumption. YOU just have a democratic need to see Bush propped up as the super boogeyman. I have read quite a bit about Halabja, reviewed many gruesome pictures, and seen the various "evidence" that points to Iran.


"It appears from official Iraqi documents that the operation was intended by Hussein's government to wipe out the Kurds."


Do we have any official Iranian documents that implicate them in the attack?

 

[Alistar7]

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1991/iraq/


In some quarters, there remains a dispute over whether Iraq -- or both Iran and Iraq -- were responsible for the chemical bombings. Most of those pointing the finger at Iran as being the guilty party, despite the enormous propaganda advantage it made of the incident at the time, cite a recent study by the U.S. Army War College, an army-funded military research institute. The study states that:

Iraq was blamed for the Halabja attack, even though it was subsequently brought out that Iran, too, had used chemicals in this operation, and it seemed likely that it was the Iranian bombardment that actually killed the Kurds.

However, the authors of that internal study, leaked at a time when the Bush Administration was strenuously resisting renewed Congressional efforts to introduce comprehensive trade sanctions against Iraq, cite no authority for their key allegations. In an earlier footnote, the report even notes that Iraq admitted using poison gas at Halabja.

 

[Alistar7]

"I don't want to fight about this since you have a Republican need to see Saddam propped up as the super boogeyman"

Hitler, Pol Pot, Saddam, all boogeymen of the same level.....

 

[Genx87]

Hold on I thought the US supplied all of Iraqs weapons and Iran actually launched the attack on the Kurds?

:disgust:

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Hold on I thought the US supplied all of Iraqs weapons and Iran actually launched the attack on the Kurds?

:disgust:

Maybe BBond and Conjur will come in and clarify some of their earlier comments on this issue....


FAT CHANCE.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
"I don't want to fight about this since you have a Republican need to see Saddam propped up as the super boogeyman"

Hitler, Pol Pot, Saddam, all boogeymen of the same level.....

Saddam doesn't come close to pol pot or hilter or stalin or kim Il jung. Saddam nothing compared to people who killed ten of millions. After all, half the people he killed were opposition insurgants attempting to overthrow the governement with the support of foriegners anyway, just like the people we are killing in iraq today.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
The United Nations (news - web sites) suspects van Anraat was a major chemical supplier to Saddam's regime, having made 36 separate shipments, including mustard gas and nerve gas originating from the United States and Japan, prosecutors said.

The ingredients came from the US and our allies.

Thiodyglycol can be used in the production of mustard gas. It also has industrial uses in the textile industry, though not in the large volumes Anraat is accused of shipping. The U.S. government had banned its export to Iraq.

So why did we ship this guy such large quantieites, or was this done with a wink and a nod.

Anraat "knew the destination and ultimate purpose of the materials he was shipping," prosecutors said.

No doubt that we knew waht he was doing too.

This guy definately deserves what he gets.

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Alistar7
The United Nations (news - web sites) suspects van Anraat was a major chemical supplier to Saddam's regime, having made 36 separate shipments, including mustard gas and nerve gas originating from the United States and Japan, prosecutors said.

The ingredients came from the US and our allies.

Thiodyglycol can be used in the production of mustard gas. It also has industrial uses in the textile industry,though not in the large volumes Anraat is accused of shipping.The U.S. government had banned its export to Iraq..

So why did we ship this guy such large quantieites, or was this done with a wink and a nod.

Anraat "knew the destination and ultimate purpose of the materials he was shipping," prosecutors said.

No doubt that we knew waht he was doing too.

This guy definately deserves what he gets.

Highlighted the part you seemed to gloss over. Saddam as bad as Hitler or Pol Pot, give me a quick sec to pull up credible links to back that up....

 

[Alistar7]

http://www.iraqcoalition.org/p...40224_mass_graves.html

"If these numbers prove accurate, they represent a crime against humanity surpassed only by the Rwandan genocide of 1994, Pol Pot's Cambodian killing fields in the 1970s, and the Nazi Holocaust of World War II."


Babies found in Iraqi mass grave

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3738368.stm

"Mr Kehoe investigated mass graves in the Balkans for five years but those burials mainly involved men of fighting age and the Iraqi finds were quite different, he said. "

"I've been doing grave sites for a long time, but I've never seen anything like this, women and children executed for no apparent reason," he said.

"The body of one woman was found still clutching a baby. The infant had been shot in the back of the head and the woman in the face."


"After all, half the people he killed were opposition insurgants attempting to overthrow the governement with the support of foriegners anyway" - miketheidiot


Those must be some of the "insurgents" Saddam executed.....

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Alistar7

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Alistar7
The United Nations (news - web sites) suspects van Anraat was a major chemical supplier to Saddam's regime, having made 36 separate shipments, including mustard gas and nerve gas originating from the United States and Japan, prosecutors said.

The ingredients came from the US and our allies.

Thiodyglycol can be used in the production of mustard gas. It also has industrial uses in the textile industry,though not in the large volumes Anraat is accused of shipping.The U.S. government had banned its export to Iraq..

So why did we ship this guy such large quantieites, or was this done with a wink and a nod.

Anraat "knew the destination and ultimate purpose of the materials he was shipping," prosecutors said.

No doubt that we knew waht he was doing too.

This guy definately deserves what he gets.

Highlighted the part you seemed to gloss over.

Again, it appears to have been banned with a wink and a nod.

Saddam as bad as Hitler or Pol Pot, give me a quick sec to pull up credible links to back that up....

sadam killed 20% of his population like pol pot? he killed over 10 million peoplelike hilter/stalin? Saddam was just another 2bit dictator, no different from the regimes in myanmar, saudi arabia, pakistan, russia. The difference is that we instigated a civilwar/rebelion, and saddam repressed them. If we did this in any of our other "allies" the results would be no different.

 

[Alistar7]

"If these numbers prove accurate, they represent a crime against humanity surpassed only by the Rwandan genocide of 1994, Pol Pot's Cambodian killing fields in the 1970s, and the Nazi Holocaust of World War II."

http://www.iraqcoalition.org/p...40224_mass_graves.html


Your attempt to suggest the US knew of the final destination of the chemicals is laughable at best. It was a DUTCH businessman who purchased them and agreed to abide by our final destination requirements. I appluad the Dutch for bringing charges since they are they only ones who had that authority. I just wish they had been on the ball before and not allowed him to circumvent US laws once under their oversight.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
http://www.iraqcoalition.org/p...40224_mass_graves.html

"If these numbers prove accurate, they represent a crime against humanity surpassed only by the Rwandan genocide of 1994, Pol Pot's Cambodian killing fields in the 1970s, and the Nazi Holocaust of World War II."


Babies found in Iraqi mass grave

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3738368.stm

"Mr Kehoe investigated mass graves in the Balkans for five years but those burials mainly involved men of fighting age and the Iraqi finds were quite different, he said. "

"I've been doing grave sites for a long time, but I've never seen anything like this, women and children executed for no apparent reason," he said.

"The body of one woman was found still clutching a baby. The infant had been shot in the back of the head and the woman in the face."


"After all, half the people he killed were opposition insurgants attempting to overthrow the governement with the support of foriegners anyway" - miketheidiot


Those must be some of the "insurgents" Saddam executed.....

400,000 isn't that far from the ussually cited number of 300k so I will give that stat some credence. even so, that doesn't come remotely close to what polpot, hitler stalin etc did in sheer scale, not to mention the ottomans, japanese,and american atrocities. certainly disgusting, put putting saddam alongside them is out of place.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
"If these numbers prove accurate, they represent a crime against humanity surpassed only by the Rwandan genocide of 1994, Pol Pot's Cambodian killing fields in the 1970s, and the Nazi Holocaust of World War II."

http://www.iraqcoalition.org/p...40224_mass_graves.html


Your attempt to suggest the US knew of the final destination of the chemicals is laughable at best. It was a DUTCH businessman who purchased them and agreed to abide by our final destination requirements. I appluad the Dutch for bringing charges since they are they only ones who had that authority. I just wish they had been on the ball before and not allowed him to circumvent US laws once under their oversight.

I also applaud them, but the idea that we didn't know is a bad joke. Did we not bother to look into why he was buying so much, since their was no legitimate purpose? It appears to me that we looked the other way.

anyways this will be my last post on the subject as my arm is cramping up again and hurts like hell. Perhaps later tonight.

 

[Alistar7]

The "oft cited" estimate is way off, remember nobody was able to get into Iraq and accurately collect information. The fact is well over 1 million people disappeared under his regime, we will never know how many were killed or what happened to each of them.

Would you agree that under sanctions Saddam still had the responsibility to take care of his citizens? Humanitarian aid was given yet over 10,000+ a MONTH died NEEDLESSLY for a period of 10 PLUS YEARS, there is at least another MILLION PLUS that died due to the intended consequences of his actions.

He was no better than Stalin or Pol Pot or any of the rest.....

 

[Alistar7]

He is a global chemical dealer, he had reasonable cause to purchase that quantity.