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greenhawk

Platinum Member
Feb 23, 2011
2,007
1
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They didn't need to do anything. And they had their money. People already bought it. AS IS. So anything they did after market (other than fixing obvious game breaking bugs (which Video adjustments do NOT fall under)) is praise worthy rather than condemnable (IMHO).

Picking on "AS IS" is a bit of a joke seeing as it is not something that is know in advance of buying the game. I might have missed it but did any reviews before release bother to mention it?

As to "after market fixes". Sure it might cost them, but that is saving good will for the next game they release. You have to be a very short sighted accountant/penny pincher to think stuffing over fans over such a small thing is a "Good thing" to be doing.

As to "praise worthy", I hardly think fixing something that is expected / common as adjustable settings is worth praising. If that was the case, we all might as well go around and "praise" people for knowing how to breath.
 

greenhawk

Platinum Member
Feb 23, 2011
2,007
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So creating video scaling would have required extra programming/configuring above and beyond the already completed product. And since porting to PC may have only been intended to add sales, they may not have wished to invest additional coding for that small market. Again, not an unreasonable decision for a game development company under the circumstances.

true in a small world view of the issue, but on a side note, this game engine is ment to be ID's product to sell to other game makers. Improving it and getting it right should be rather high on the list if you take that view. (ie: the game engine is more than just the THIS game).
 

greenhawk

Platinum Member
Feb 23, 2011
2,007
1
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Far as I'm concerned, as long as a game can adjust the resolution, texture resolution and hopefully AA/AF it's got the major ones covered. Past that you're really getting to the point of diminishing returns.

Yep, the old 80/20 rule. But then what you consider the basics I do not.

Video settings I want are generally (regardless of game): resolution -> to screen max, AA/AF->Off, Motion Blur->Off, "Weapon bobbing"->Off, Mouse Acceleration->Off. There are some other control related ones, but that goes hand in hand as I see it. If no video adjustments, why bother with control adjustments?

After those, I generally do not care unless a problem develops (and to me changing a setting is sooo many times faster than waiting for a bug fix/patch that I might stop playing the game and not come back to it even if it does get fixed if it takes too long).
 

thespyder

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2006
1,979
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In reading your various posts I think the problem is you are confusing what you want and think is reasonable with what "Should Be".

You may not agree with the decisions made by the company. You are entitled to disagree with those decisions. And you may have perfectly logical and valid reasons for believing that your arguments should have driven a given decision. However...

Decisions were made on the part of ID. They have the right to make those decisions. You as a consumer do not have the right to demand these decisions be changed or to expect them to be changed simply because you see things differently (which is my whole thing with the OP's rant).

And what I find praiseworthy is that when faced with feedback that this or that feature should be added or changed, the company responded. Even though the feedback went against their initial choices and cost them additional time, effort and manpower (which they did not pass on to the consumer). for the simple reason that they were not required to do anything of the sort.
 
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Kudro

Member
Mar 29, 2008
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You are assuming that it was done maliciously. I see no evidence of that. But if it WAS done maliciously, then I too agree with the OP. However, sans facts to support that and given a perfectly reasonable explanation to the contrary I defer to Ocam's razer theory in that "All things being equal, the simplest explanation is the best".

In other words, I am going to go with the given reasons rather than believing in some machiavellian scheme to screw PC gamers. A plot that is then foiled by the DEVS themselves when they release the features post release.

If you have additional information on the subject, please let us all in on your wisdom.


I'm not assuming anything was done maliciously. I just made a sarcastic post showing what I could get away with using your reasoning. I think we all know that Rage was designed with consoles in mind and to optimize itself accordingly to achieve optimal framerate. It was just implemented poorly on the PC. You're here to defend id Software's business decision, I'm here to express my dismay at a reputable developer's lazy-ass port. Though I did read a recent article where Carmack said that developing Rage for consoles first/PC second was a bad idea (in hindsight) and that their next project would prioritize the PC. Unless he's recanted since then.
 

thespyder

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2006
1,979
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You're here to defend id Software's business decision

Um, No I am actually not.

I am here to point out that just because a consumer thinks something should change (even if they have perfectly valid reasons behind that thought) doesn't mean they have the right to demand the change.

Ask? Yes.
Recommend? Yes.
Demand? No.

And to get all whiny and disgruntled about it is even more crazy.
 

AstroManLuca

Lifer
Jun 24, 2004
15,628
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Um, No I am actually not.

I am here to point out that just because a consumer thinks something should change (even if they have perfectly valid reasons behind that thought) doesn't mean they have the right to demand the change.

Ask? Yes.
Recommend? Yes.
Demand? No.

And to get all whiny and disgruntled about it is even more crazy.

So what would you say if they dropped keyboard+mouse support and required you to use a gamepad? Would you say that anyone who disagrees with such a move is whining?

The question is how far will you go to defend companies that make dumb decisions because "they don't owe you anything"? They do owe everyone a functional product; after all, people did buy the game. You could argue that adjusting graphics settings isn't making the game nonfunctional, but the question remains - how far will you defend them? How ridiculous must the restrictions be before you say "hmm, maybe it is reasonable to ask that they include such and such feature"?
 

Childs

Lifer
Jul 9, 2000
11,313
7
81
So what would you say if they dropped keyboard+mouse support and required you to use a gamepad? Would you say that anyone who disagrees with such a move is whining?

The question is how far will you go to defend companies that make dumb decisions because "they don't owe you anything"? They do owe everyone a functional product; after all, people did buy the game. You could argue that adjusting graphics settings isn't making the game nonfunctional, but the question remains - how far will you defend them? How ridiculous must the restrictions be before you say "hmm, maybe it is reasonable to ask that they include such and such feature"?

And really, people manually adjusting settings via config files and launch options actually fixed most of these "driver" issues.
 

Kudro

Member
Mar 29, 2008
90
0
66
I am here to point out that just because a consumer thinks something should change (even if they have perfectly valid reasons behind that thought) doesn't mean they have the right to demand the change.

Well sure. That can be said for just about anything. But who cares about whether they have the right to complain or demand? If you release a product that seems to have less functionality than your previous products, people are probably going to complain. And if a sizeable portion of consumers complain about its lack of features and this lack of features becomes known to potential buyers...it's a wise move to work to correct those concerns. Just speaking personally, had I known beforehand that Rage would have no graphics options and that the game engine would dynamically dictate what I can and can't see, I wouldn't have bought it. Maybe this information was readily available, but I didn't see it.
 

thespyder

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2006
1,979
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So what would you say if they dropped keyboard+mouse support and required you to use a gamepad? Would you say that anyone who disagrees with such a move is whining?

I would think it was a pretty poor business decision, but yes I fully support that company's right to make even poor decisions like that. I wouldn't buy the game, but I wouldn't tell them they don't have the right to make a game like that if they so choose.

Anyone "Demanding" that it be fixed/changed has no buisiness making a Demand. Asking? Sure. Suggesting? Requesting? Absolutely. But saying that "XYZ has no choice but to change it" is just wrong and whiny. And really reminds me of that 8 year old kid who throws a temper tantrum and screaming at the top of their lungs in the middle of the shopping mall to try and get their Mom to buy them the toy they want.

The question is how far will you go to defend companies that make dumb decisions because "they don't owe you anything"? They do owe everyone a functional product; after all, people did buy the game. You could argue that adjusting graphics settings isn't making the game nonfunctional, but the question remains - how far will you defend them? How ridiculous must the restrictions be before you say "hmm, maybe it is reasonable to ask that they include such and such feature"?

I am not defending the companies. AT ALL. Except in that they have the right to make and sell the games they choose to make and sell (even poor and crapy ones). I make no claims beyond that.

Yes, if the game didn't work out of the box due to catestrophic programming faults, it should be made to work. But video choices do not fall into that category.

And unless you are a stock holder in the company, they owe you NOTHING! It may not be a good business decision to make games or add/remove/change features that are liked in the community, but that doesn't equate to them "OWING" you anything.

and if your complaints happen to be "I wish this would change" or "Lets get the community to speak with their wallets to make this change" or even "I won't buy another game by company XYZ if they continue to make games with(out) this feature", fine.

But the OP's rant was X company "Owes" the community and has no choice but to Change Y feature "BECAUSE THE COMMUNITY DEMANDS IT". Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. And it came across to me as more than a bit whiny.
 
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thespyder

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2006
1,979
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Well sure. That can be said for just about anything. But who cares about whether they have the right to complain or demand? If you release a product that seems to have less functionality than your previous products, people are probably going to complain. And if a sizeable portion of consumers complain about its lack of features and this lack of features becomes known to potential buyers...it's a wise move to work to correct those concerns. Just speaking personally, had I known beforehand that Rage would have no graphics options and that the game engine would dynamically dictate what I can and can't see, I wouldn't have bought it. Maybe this information was readily available, but I didn't see it.

Again with the confusion. Complaining is one thing (whiny, but OK). Demanding is something totally different.

And as for a "Sizable portion of consumers", this is the PC Port of a Console game. I am sure that 95% of the sales will be console based. And of the remaining 5%, probably 98% don't complain about this missing video options. So your "Sizable portion of consumers" is going to be less than 1% of those consumers. A vocal 1% to be sure, but hardly a majority or even a noteworthy portion.

And no one is saying not including video scaling isn't a poor decision. Clearly ID thought so as they followed up with the updated configuration post deployment. However, the OP has no business Demanding it to be changed. And their stance that ID is required to change it is ludacris.
 

greenhawk

Platinum Member
Feb 23, 2011
2,007
1
71
And really, people manually adjusting settings via config files and launch options actually fixed most of these "driver" issues.

True, but that is becuase ID did not do something really backwards and encrypt it like I remember reading some other recent (6months?) game did.
 

greenhawk

Platinum Member
Feb 23, 2011
2,007
1
71
but I wouldn't tell them they don't have the right to make a game like that if they so choose.

so you would not give creative feedback on how you feel the product could be improved?

At the end of the day it is the company's choice to listen or not, but it is everyone's right to give feedback if they feel it is needed.
 

thespyder

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2006
1,979
0
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so you would not give creative feedback on how you feel the product could be improved?

At the end of the day it is the company's choice to listen or not, but it is everyone's right to give feedback if they feel it is needed.

I can't help it if you can't read my posts.
 

Zenoth

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2005
5,202
216
106
Alright, this went a bit beyond what I was expecting. I should thank you guys for taking your time to discuss this. I would like to clarify a couple of points, however. But before I do, I would like to specify that when I made my first post I was indeed pissed off especially at the "due to popular demand" part and how I perceived it, and as a result some of my comments and opinions aren't exactly in the same veins as the ones I have now, given more time for thought and after letting the dust fall for some time (speaking for myself).

With this said, I would like to clarify a few key points from some of the replies:

º ENTITLEMENT / OBLIGATION / REQUIREMENT

Agreed, developers are indeed not obliged or required to provide options for their games. With this said, can and should PC gamers expect basic options in their games? Of course, but why? Most likely because it's the PC version. If a multi-platform port on the PC ends up being almost the same as the consoles version (I.E without significant differences at least in terms of options and customizations such as key bindings for instance) then the PC gamers seeing that can certainly have the feeling that in the end it might have been better to just buy the console version (even if they don't have the consoles in question).

The "problem" with this is that it is perceived by some gamers that as soon as options do make it at release in a port to the PC that automatically it should mean that the developer did that simply because they chose to. And with such perception in mind of course when you read comments of other gamers whom complain about the absence of even the most basic of options (for a PC game) you'd imagine that they feel entitled to getting such options to start with. I cannot speak for all of those who "complained" about that, but I will defend myself from being perceived by some as an entitled gamer (or whiner). The so called "entitlement" is merely a condition to which, like me, thousands of PC gamers out there literally got "used to" having basic options in PC games for many years since they started gaming on the PC platform, specifically.

In my case, I started gaming on the NES, then many consoles and generations and gaming revolutions happened, I enjoyed them all should I say, until the moment (around summer of 2001) when I truly became a "PC gamer". It's about 50/50 by now, I have played games on consoles (only) from the age of around nine years-old, and so for a period of approximately ten years. And from around 2001 to this day it's been about another decade of gaming, but on the PC instead (the last console I owned was the original XBOX, for which I only owned three games). Throughout the years from when I started to play games on the PC one of the first things I noticed when compared to playing games on consoles was that PC games could be configured and modified. In fact, modifications of games like adding a new texture, making new animations or changing the A.I. et cetera, only belonged to the realm of colored dreams of a console gamer mind who was never aware that such things were even possible on "that other platform".

One of the great accomplishments that the PC platform added and contributed to video gaming in general (and miraculously still does to this day, though much less often for obvious reasons, one of them being major, namely the advent of multi-platform releases) is that gamers themselves have some control on how certain aspects of the game's visuals and audio (at the very least) will end up like, either based on hardware capabilities and compatibilities or merely based on the gamers' own personal tastes. Such "control" from gamers on their games was unspoken of and barely thinkable if you were a console gamer, or at least even if you were aware of it as a console gamer you could still only dream about it since you wouldn't own a PC... or perhaps not a "gaming PC" able to play the games you would like to.

º DEVELOPER'S "MALICIOUS INTENTIONS"

And so I come back to the point of how years-long PC gamers have been conditioned to expect minimal control and configurations in their PC games, even if (or especially if) the said games are ports of multi-platform titles. If during all those years developers merely allowed, gave, gifted or benevolently provided us with such minimal controllable values and visual/audio/game-play adjustments on the PC platform then why suddenly ("suddenly" is merely how I myself perceive it based on my own experiences since the past few years) do they sometimes literally stop doing it? Or why do they very often (since a few years, often seen from ports) don't even take the time to "gift us" with the most basic of options?

It is as if (another personal perception) over the years with the arrival of new hardware generations that the very developers' ideology of gaming development stages/processes/procedures on the PC platform (including PC-only releases, not just ports) not only drastically changed, but brought along a completely new school of thought that developers might have used themselves to as well, maybe even unconsciously, and yes I do honestly believe that it can happen that way as innocently as it may seem. If my initial comments in my first post seemed as if I was "entitled" to options in PC games, and if it looked like I thought that some developers or id Software maliciously/intentionally/deliberately restricted the creation of even basic in-game options (or didn't take the time to make them in the first place) then I can certainly apology, although it wasn't my own intention nor even my honest thoughts.

I never thought for a second that id Software specifically did that maliciously, but I was indeed pissed off. But being pissed off doesn't exactly mean that suddenly I see them as some sort of tyrants in the video gaming industry even trying to compete on EA's sand squares if some perceptions out there could reach that point of exaggeration. I merely reacted (almost as a reflex) to the absence of basic options that - as I mentioned above - as a PC gamer I have been used to get, thanks to the seemingly developers-established "standard" that they themselves "created" over the years, whether it was by a generous act of benevolence or by "demand" from their consumers. It happened so often in the past that it was (and still is) perceived as granted, but are gamers the only responsible ones for that perception of entitlement? Are the gamers themselves and only them the ones at fault and to be blamed? Or do developers and their nearly decade-old (and now seemingly fading) standards and internal philosophies of games development have some part to play in this story?

In the "worst" case scenario (as I clearly wrote in the second post) and call me idiot or naive if necessary I do honestly believe that developers (with the change of their gaming development rules and mentality over the years) have simply forgotten the importance and the significance of having specific options in the PC version of a game. I'm not implying here that they have no knowledge, for instance, of what options could "make it" in their games or not, and I do not take them for idiots. I know that they know what they could do, which options they could create, what their engine is able to provide on a PC, more so then it could on its consoles counterpart. What I am implying is that even thought the developers certainly "know" about such options being possible, that they (the options) merely became a second-thought and has lost their true meaning and importance over the years, that it (the ideology that options aren't always important anymore and that PC gamers shouldn't always expect to get them for the sake of having them) made its way profoundly in the minds of some developers, perhaps as a reflex, maybe unconsciously, as a new "way of making games", a new practice, and that "malicous intentions" are no where to be found.

In short, victims of "changes" over the years that were inevitable. But a number of veteran PC gamers (veteran here referring to the number of years they played games on the PC platform, and not referring to how "superior" it is to be a PC gamer) did not forget how it was like just a couple of years ago. How most PC games were released with multiple in-game options as a standard of games development. That changed, and that change is was still gets on my nerves today, but I never perceived id Software as bad guys whom happen to be scheming against their consumers in a dark room filled with cigarettes smoke.

TO CONCLUDE...

I might have been naive, or over-reacting, but I was reacting to the absence of what I believe I have been conditioned to accept as a standard in PC gaming. If there is at the very least one thing that differentiate and distinguishes the PC version of a game in comparison to its consoles counterpart, it's the in-game options. Otherwise, I might as well go buy a 360, or a PS3, since they wouldn't have anything "less" in comparison to the PC version, while the PC version would most likely end up being filled with more bugs. If there is one thing that developers can do, and in my opinion should do then it is to ensure that a minimum number of "PC version-unique" in-game options end up in the final release of a game. If it needs to then developers might have to re-establish that standard in their development stages and mentalities, that I believe they might have lost or are in the process of forgetting.
 
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thespyder

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2006
1,979
0
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So I think that the main problem is the name of the game has changed in recent years. The lions share of the profits in gaming are Console related. And so almost every new game coming out today is built with Consoles in mind, and increasingly straight FOR the console with the PC port a secondary consideration.

this invariably leads to two of your concerns. In the first place, if the game was developed to be on the Console with a PC port only being done to make more money, the developers aren't going to devote resources to PC capabilities if they don't have too. since the profit margin on PC games is so slim anyway, why do they want to undercut that profit even more with extra expense?

Secondly, because the market is now shackeled to the Console, the hardware improvements in the PC market far surpass anything that the Consoles can handle. So, since the developers want a game that will market well (i.e. Console) they are constrained to only utilize the capabilities of the Console. Anything more than that and they shoot themselves in the foot financially. So we get seriously gimped or handi-capped PC games that were never designed with the PC capabilites in mind. Or, they are developed by smaller houses who don't have the financial backing to fully utilize PC capabilities.

I am not saying that this is "Right" by any means. I, as an avid PC Gamer, would hope that games would still be made with PC as the primary platform. Alas, almost no one is doing that anymore. Stardock still is. And a couple of Indie developers are. Blizzard is (although I strongly suspect that Diablo 3 will be gimped because they want it to be Console friendly). But very few others. Even Bioware, long known for their PC RPGs are feeling the bug so bad that they torpedoed DA2 simply to make it Console friendly (and I bet ME3 will be likewise).

But it is a simple fact of life. Rage (to use the example you gave initially) was developed to be Console game. Porting it to PC was probably an after thought at best and therefore minimal effort was done and only to increase profits marginally. Hence, no video scaling. The fact that they came out with a patch, I THINK, is testiment to them giving back to the community. But that is simply my opinion.

but to answer your initial comments, just because we have been pampered (i.e. conditioned in your words) to expect something, doesn't mean that we can/should simply EXPECT the status quo to continue. We, as consumers are equally as guilty as it is our purchasing patterns (i.e. to go more console heavy) that drives business decisions. And if the company is going to cut corners, as they invariably have to do in today's economy, they are going to shave the margin that makes them the least money. And since PC gaming is the smallest market, that is where the hit lands.
 
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Childs

Lifer
Jul 9, 2000
11,313
7
81
Its somewhat like consumer microwave ovens (PC) always let you specify the time and power settings. Commercial microwave ovens (console) ala 7-11 just let you pick a number. So you go to Sears to buy a microwave oven, open it, and find you have the commercial version. There was no mention of it on the box, so obviously this is not what you wanted. Not everyone likes soup cooked at number 3. Maybe you want 3 mins on HIGH. Whatever, the point is there are certain expectations inherent in a product, like in microwave ovens and in pc games. Video options are one of them. If there aim is to give PC gamers a console experience, then put that on the box or in the product description, and simply say all that pc gamer rage inducing stuff (only spend 1/10 the time of console version) ahead of time so people can make an informed decision.

And it was mostly disappointing because we are talking about id. But I guess that name doesnt mean much anymore, and in retrospect it hasn't for some time. Once you configured by hand (at least on NV hardware) it was good enough, so even their complaints about it being all about drivers were bs. Just not used to that sort of thing coming from id...the apathy for PC, condescension, passing the buck, etc, but whatever. They are now a bargain bin developer with bargain bin tech as far as I'm concerned. With proper expectations, I'm sure their games will be fine.
 

Zenoth

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2005
5,202
216
106
Won't be able to see ping at launch in BF3.

I instantly thought of this thread when I saw this...

Indeed.

That, and also in our very forums, from another thread related to Crysis 2, showing a third-party utility made to adjust options beyond those available by default in-game, namely the MaLDoHD 3.0 configuration tool (third picture). Also, the third-party configuration tool for Borderlands (will most likely have one for Borderlands 2 as well). Those are just two examples out of many more.