Dual Xeon or Dual I7 for graphic design?

[mlah384]

I heard xeon was best for graphic design (video stuff like After Effects, Premiere, Vegas and 3D stuff like Max, Cinema 4D, etc... ) and I also heard that I7 was better than Xeon until the 6core xeon came out? or something like that? Should I wait for the new xeon's? or what? And what would be the ideal setup? Also, can you overclock dual setups (dual xeon or dual i7)?

Thanks

 

[Lean L]

i7 can't be dual socket. That made your choice a lot easier

edit: and it depends on how seriously you take your data. i7 will be cheaper and overclockable. Dual xeons are not overclockable unless you get ES chips with unlocked multipliers.

 

[alyarb]

just get a i7 860 and P55 system. you don't need the most ridiculously decked out machine just because you're using compute intensive apps. there is a point of diminishing return on your investment, and that point is i7 860.

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: mlah384
I heard xeon was best for graphic design (video stuff like After Effects, Premiere, Vegas and 3D stuff like Max, Cinema 4D, etc... ) and I also heard that I7 was better than Xeon until the 6core xeon came out? or something like that? Should I wait for the new xeon's? or what? And what would be the ideal setup? Also, can you overclock dual setups (dual xeon or dual i7)?

Thanks

dual i7 is called a gainestown.

Uses different set of cpu's then standard i7 cpu's

They also cost a lot more...

An i7 with HT On will almost keep up with a dual yorkfield system. Which is basically last years quad cores.

A Dual i7 called Gainestown will wipe the floor of both those machines.

A Dual i9 Gulftown, will destroy any single box rendering rig on the market.

Originally posted by: alyarb
just get a i7 860 and P55 system. you don't need the most ridiculously decked out machine just because you're using compute intensive apps. there is a point of diminishing return on your investment, and that point is i7 860.

i have to disagree..

it seems like he's a cpu person..
My recomendation would be X58 platform... grab a 920 for now and see if its something you like..

If you want more power, grab a gulftown to replace it for hexcore.

If its still not enough power... then your in the market for a full blown server.

 

[mlah384]

I read where i9 Gulftown will be coming out in 2010 with usb 3.0 and sata 6gb/s support? I guess i should wait? I'm using q6600 quad core now with 8gb of ram... But 24+gb of ram and more processing speed sure sounds nice.... But I read that going from q6600 to i7 isnt a huge difference? Maybe it would be smarter to wait and get dual i9? I wonder what the max ram will be on those boards too?

 

[Markfw]

Originally posted by: mlah384
I read where i9 Gulftown will be coming out in 2010 with usb 3.0 and sata 6gb/s support? I guess i should wait? I'm using q6600 quad core now with 8gb of ram... But 24+gb of ram and more processing speed sure sounds nice.... But I read that going from q6600 to i7 isnt a huge difference? Maybe it would be smarter to wait and get dual i9? I wonder what the max ram will be on those boards too?

For doing what exactly ? An I7@3.6 will wipe the floor with a Q6600@3.6 for rendering, as in twice the speed.

 

[mlah384]

Originally posted by: Markfw900

Originally posted by: mlah384
I read where i9 Gulftown will be coming out in 2010 with usb 3.0 and sata 6gb/s support? I guess i should wait? I'm using q6600 quad core now with 8gb of ram... But 24+gb of ram and more processing speed sure sounds nice.... But I read that going from q6600 to i7 isnt a huge difference? Maybe it would be smarter to wait and get dual i9? I wonder what the max ram will be on those boards too?

For doing what exactly ? An I7@3.6 will wipe the floor with a Q6600@3.6 for rendering, as in twice the speed.

Good point.. Now that I think about it, the statement I read was obviously a general statement... Will it be likely that an i9 be twice as fast as i7 in rendering?

Thanks

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: mlah384

Originally posted by: Markfw900

Originally posted by: mlah384
I read where i9 Gulftown will be coming out in 2010 with usb 3.0 and sata 6gb/s support? I guess i should wait? I'm using q6600 quad core now with 8gb of ram... But 24+gb of ram and more processing speed sure sounds nice.... But I read that going from q6600 to i7 isnt a huge difference? Maybe it would be smarter to wait and get dual i9? I wonder what the max ram will be on those boards too?

For doing what exactly ? An I7@3.6 will wipe the floor with a Q6600@3.6 for rendering, as in twice the speed.

Good point.. Now that I think about it, the statement I read was obviously a general statement... Will it be likely that an i9 be twice as fast as i7 in rendering?

Thanks

i'll show u how a i9 behaves in rendering in 2-3 more days.

I'll plan to pit a:

i9 3070mhz EE edition vs. i7 975 D0 on a eVGA Classified 759 with a mean watercooling system.

Thats all im gonna say for now.

 

[mlah384]

i'll show u how a i9 behaves in rendering in 2-3 more days.

I'll plan to pit a:

i9 3070mhz EE edition vs. i7 975 D0 on a eVGA Classified 759 with a mean watercooling system.

Thats all im gonna say for now.

Oh sweet! That sounds badass... Yeah, I thought of watercooling this next build.. I've never watercooled before...

 

[themisfit610]

Dual Nehalem Xeon workstations aren't all that expensive.

The Mac Pro is a pretty good value, and Dell / HP both sell workstations for under $3k that get you 2 Nehalem Xeon CPUs, and support for tons of RAM.

CPU intensive apps like video encoding and rendering (assuming they can take advantage of all 16 threads) will benefit HUGELY from this setup. There is nothing better available now, and you can get a badass system for under $3k.

Don't buy consumer level gear (i.e. i7 870 on a P55) if you want professional level performance.

~MiSfit

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: themisfit610
Dual Nehalem Xeon workstations aren't all that expensive.

The Mac Pro is a pretty good value, and Dell / HP both sell workstations for under $3k that get you 2 Nehalem Xeon CPUs, and support for tons of RAM.

~MiSfit

i see it for 3.2K.

>.<

And that's with Two 2.26GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon "Nehalem" processors.

:T

He could piece it out on a super micro board, and have vista on it for less, and skip the consumer route entirely.

I think that's what he's asking.

 

[wwswimming]

Originally posted by: mlah384
I heard xeon was best for graphic design (video stuff like After Effects, Premiere, Vegas and 3D stuff like Max, Cinema 4D, etc... ) and I also heard that I7 was better than Xeon until the 6core xeon came out? or something like that? Should I wait for the new xeon's? or what? And what would be the ideal setup? Also, can you overclock dual setups (dual xeon or dual i7)?

Thanks

here are some dual 1366 Xeon server/workstation boards.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16813151190
"TYAN S7010AGM2NRF Dual LGA 1366 Intel 5520 SSI EEB Dual Intel Xeon 5500 Series Server Motherboard - Retail
Mainstream DP server for server and workstation applications"
$400
E-ATX size, requires special (large) case

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16813131378
"ASUS Z8NA-D6C Dual LGA 1366 Intel 5500 ATX Dual Intel Xeon 5500 Series Server/Workstation Motherboard - Retail"
$260
ATX size, can use normal size case

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16819117185
80 watt Nehalem 2.26 GHz $385

there's also a 60 watt 2.26 GHz that costs about $200 more.

as far as OC'ing, it can eat up a LOT of time getting it set up. the Nehalem single-CPU motherboards seem to overclock easy.

one thing about the dual core Xeon boards - you have to pay attention to the memory. they used to require a different kind; i'm not sure about the dual 1366 boards.

 

[NXIL]

I read where i9 Gulftown will be coming out in 2010 with usb 3.0 and sata 6gb/s support? I guess i should wait?

mlah,

yes, you should wait for USB 4.0 and SATA 12GB/S.....and then wait for version 5 of USB and 24GB/S......ok, sarcasm generator off.

Dude, you can wait forever to "future proof" your next upgrade.

I think the recommendation above to get a Mac Pro is the best:

http://www.apple.com/macpro/features/processor.html

But 24+gb of ram and more processing speed sure sounds nice....

On the Mac Pro, you can get up to 32GB of memory (with ECC--better look into that with that much memory churning your photoshopped photos).

I heard xeon was best for graphic design

This is true, except that AMD CPUs work fine for graphic design, as do IBM PowerPC chips; at one time Sun's SPARC was pretty good--regardless, what is really most important when you get right down to it is the software, i.e. Photoshop, or whatever you program you choose to use. The hardware is fun, but, it's the software that's key--sort of like a fast race car or airplane--without a competent driver or pilot, it's just a bunch of parts.

Anyway, with your budget, I would guess (assume? Ass-U-Me) that this is for professional/educational use. If so: I really recommend you get the Mac Pro. The last time I checked, it was cheaper to buy a Mac Pro that to try to put together a home brew PC using equivalent parts. You get a great OS, support, warranty service, you're not going to be in driver/weird OEM part hell.

HTH

NX

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: NXIL


On the Mac Pro, you can get up to 32GB of memory (with ECC--better look into that with that much memory churning your photoshopped photos).


NX

how do u get 32gb of ram when you have tri channel?
(where are u seeing 4gb DDR3)?

How is a MAC better then a Intel server platform when MAC's are based off intel?

A Supermicro X8DAL + those xeons swim listed + 24GB of DDR3 (tri channel) = Less then a MAC still.

And the OP doesnt need to relearn MAC OS.

 

[alyarb]

Originally posted by: aigomorla

Originally posted by: alyarb
just get a i7 860 and P55 system. you don't need the most ridiculously decked out machine just because you're using compute intensive apps. there is a point of diminishing return on your investment, and that point is i7 860.

i have to disagree..

it seems like he's a cpu person..

he's not. he's a totally helpless noob about to blow his money and get no return on his tech investment. a few days earlier he was in the video card forum saying "hey guys... what's a really good video card for graphic design?"

"hey guys... i heard dual xeons are fast. i also heard i7 is fast. i also heard 6-core is fast! i also heard overclocking is fast!"

it should be obvious to you right away from how he writes that he has no idea what he's saying or doing and he needs to start from the basics with a 90-day refill of ritalin and the least amount of investment possible. he said he had a $500 budget for a video card. now we're advising him on $1500 worth of CPU/mobo? if he had any experience with these programs, he should have a good idea what his hardware needs are, but he has no idea. he doesn't know how much RAM he needs or if he needs a Quadro GPU or dual nehalem CPUs. "hmm! i'd like to watercool this next build, i've never watercooled before!" is this guy even serious? why put another $300-500 worth of cooling into a workstation? spend $500 making it faster rather than on cooling. there are plenty of air coolers that will keep 3 ghz, 4 ghz nehalems cool, even in 2S. you guys are just surrounding him with a whirlwind of suggestions and he goes along with everything you're saying because he doesn't know any better. he can only believe in his mind, "this hardware is cool, so i probably need it."


it sounds to me like he is just learning how to use these programs and he thinks he needs bleeding edge hardware to see results, and that just isn't true. i7 860+P55 will get him started for less than a third the cost of gainestown or gulftown. he doesn't need the fastest possible build that we can hold his hand through; he needs experience and we need to know what level of experience he has in order to advise him (did your parents buy you an M5 for your first car?). in his other thread he just dropped a bunch of names like 3d studio max, illustrator, photoshop, without telling us what he does. he just keeps saying "graphic design," as if that means anything to us. you know damn well only vocational schools use that term to describe their degree programs. "graphic design" is just a realm of technical work that sounds prestigious to him because he is interested in learning it. it doesn't mean he needs a quad socket 19U rendering farm.

if he is a professional/prosumer I would have expected a far more detailed, adult-sounding OP in both threads that would've exhibited years of experience creating content x, y, z. instead, what do we get? "sweet!" and "badass!" "will i9 be twice as fast as i7???" this is exactly the sort of bullshit you can expect when you hype up gulftown the way you have, without any performance data. all we know about it is that it's only 4 more low-freq threads. how the fuck it became such a messiah to you people, at $1500/ea, is beyond me. regardless, i'm not going to encourage a kid to buy a $2000+ workstation just so he can figure out that he sucks at cinema 4D and doesn't like it.

let's try to advise him based on a slightly more detailed analysis of his skill level. if he has skills, does he use them to make money, or does he do "graphic design" for fun? if this is his job, he should take his threads more seriously and better describe to us what his needs are. he needs to stop saying "graphic design" and tell us exactly what he does.

 

[Ben90]

spot on alyarb...

There is only 1 cpu for ur needs; its called AMD TWKR Edition, i recommend putting them in an quad socket board (u may need to hand solder some more HT connections on urself, shouldnt be a big deal)
Anything less than 200gb of ram is pussy shit for graphic design as well

 

[alyarb]

haha, AMD TWKR is for tweakers!! if you are a professional, there is only one:

http://www.compucanjes.com/prod_images/0000011186_1.jpg

 

[schenley101]

Originally posted by: alyarb
haha, AMD TWKR is for tweakers!! if you are a professional, there is only one:

http://www.compucanjes.com/prod_images/0000011186_1.jpg

Great!!!! thats real "Badass"

 

[NXIL]

how do u get 32gb of ram when you have tri channel?
(where are u seeing 4gb DDR3)?

How is a MAC better then a Intel server platform when MAC's are based off intel?

A Supermicro X8DAL + those xeons swim listed + 24GB of DDR3 (tri channel) = Less then a MAC still.

And the OP doesnt need to relearn MAC OS.

Hey Ai,

I never said anything about triple channel, which, for the most part, is marketing hype. (See Maximum PC article about dual v. triple channel.)

Specs were taken from Apple.com:

http://store.apple.com/us/brow...ac_pro?mco=MTAyNTQwMTk

Point I was trying to make for him wanting to have that much memory: ECC is a good idea.

Where is 4GB DDR3 available? Newegg:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...yCodeValue=523%3A28912

No, it's not cheap.....but it's for sale. And, he already has an 8GB machine with a quad core he finds "sluggish".

How is a Mac better? Dude, that's Apple's business model: they control the hardware and software--no driver issues, no off brands or weird motherboard components or conflicts like you see mentioned on these forums so often. And, OS X works well. You pay more--but you get higher quality. (Some would diasgree--whatever. You pays your money and makes your choice.) It's like that for a lot of consumer products: KIA versus BMW or Mercedes.

As for "re-learning" OS X? Dude, it's not that complicated. He'll spend most of his time in the programs anyway.

If this is indeed for his work or school, it's not a bad idea to be familiar with both Windows and OS X. (Microsoft certainly is--there are apparently some very Mac like features in Windows 7.)

Regardless, you, Alyarb, hit the nail on the head:

he's not. he's a totally helpless noob about to blow his money and get no return on his tech investment. a few days earlier he was in the video card forum saying "hey guys... what's a really good video card for graphic design?"

"hey guys... i heard dual xeons are fast. i also heard i7 is fast. i also heard 6-core is fast! i also heard overclocking is fast!"

it should be obvious to you right away from how he writes that he has no idea what he's saying or doing and he needs to start from the basics with a 90-day refill of ritalin and the least amount of investment possible.

Well, maybe a little harsh, but, I see the other threads he started, from which this is quoted:

What monitor will be better for Graphic Design and Web Design? The Apple 30" or the Dell 30"?

He's apparently got some cash burning a hole in his pockets. (Too much to fit in one pocket.)

And

What's the smartest road to take for a video card for graphic design without breaking the bank? I use programs such as all of the Adobe CS4 (Photoshop 64bit, AfterEffects, flash, fireworks, illustrator, etc...) and I also use Cinema 4D and 3DS Max. I also do a lot of video work.

Good responses:

"graphics design" is incredibly vague. in fact, it's meaningless, and a GPU isn't going to transform the performance of every program that involves drawing pictures.

and

I guess those Quadro cards are really just hype these days?


Not in the least, they just aren't something you need. If you don't know why you would need a Quadro, then you don't need one.

His response:

Thanks for the reply's! [sic] Last night I was working in After Effects on a project and it was annoying how sluggish things got while I was working on it. So i guess cpu speed, disk speed, ram amount and speed are what I need over video card? So I guess I should look into duel Xeons, SSDs and DDR3? I'm running Q6600 with 8gbs of DDR2 and 7200 rpm drives now.....

Certainly not a bad rig he has right now.....

But, he's having trouble interpreting and diagnosing a BSOD:

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...eadid=2341317#31828482

Granted, not always an easy thing, but: Google?

Oh, and he's looking for a tiny case to put the overclocked octocore into:

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...eadid=2341317#31828482

Has to be small, but fit a large videocard, and, water coolable.....

And, had a cheap powersupply blow a cap on him (bust a cap?):

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...eadid=2341314#31837140

Note: cheap power supply blows 10/10-09. Also, has question about BSOD/memory same day. Same PC? Do the math. Different PC on same wiring? Hope you had a UPS protecting your other machine--I think it's pretty fair to say that a cheap power supply dying a horrible death could put some ripples into the house AC.

let's try to advise him based on a slightly more detailed analysis of his skill level. if he has skills, does he use them to make money, or does he do "graphic design" for fun? if this is his job, he should take his threads more seriously and better describe to us what his needs are. he needs to stop saying "graphic design" and tell us exactly what he does.

Alyarb, my hat is off to you: I agree 100%. Thanks. You are "bad ass!"

And Ai: your posts are "sweet!" I definitely see your points about the uber-expensive 4GB ram sticks for the uber expensive Mac Pro, and how a custom machine could be a great solution for him, but: now that Alyarb has spelled it out and I read a bit further, it looks like mlah needs to read Anandtech, CPU mag, MaximumPC, and do a wee bit more homework before he drops a lot of cash--

NX

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: schenley101

Originally posted by: alyarb
haha, AMD TWKR is for tweakers!! if you are a professional, there is only one:

http://www.compucanjes.com/prod_images/0000011186_1.jpg

Great!!!! thats real "Badass"

FTW!

Powered by AMD.. LOL...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...upercomputer_HiRes.jpg

I think a multi cpu gulftown machine will gobble that up soon tho.

 

[alyarb]

BLUE LEDS!!! SWEEEEEEEEEET!

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: aigomorla
i'll show u how a i9 behaves in rendering in 2-3 more days.

:Q

Why aren't our Intel reps as nice?

Originally posted by: alyarb
it sounds to me like he is just learning how to use these programs and he thinks he needs bleeding edge hardware to see results, and that just isn't true.

Good observations. Perhaps the OP can explain in more detail exactly what he uses his computer for?

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: Zap

Originally posted by: aigomorla
i'll show u how a i9 behaves in rendering in 2-3 more days.

:Q

Why aren't our Intel reps as nice?

LOL my sponsor takes care of that..

I just get a green light to show or no show..

 

[sgrinavi]

Originally posted by: Markfw900

For doing what exactly ? An I7@3.6 will wipe the floor with a Q6600@3.6 for rendering, as in twice the speed.

Or more. I replaced my e8600 & my q9550 system (both 8gb x48 boards) with a single i7 system and I am turning out frames faster than the two combined by a long shot.

 

[mlah384]

Wow... so much love. I'm flattered at all the press and especially all the youngsters that are researching all my threads/comments in other posts trying to belittle me. Since there are so many eMuscles on this thread and since I'm home today with my wife and child (We all have food poisoning from the fair last night.. ughh...) I'll have the time to respond to all these comments, both mature and immature ones. (Gotta love it when kids are calling a 40yr old a kid) Of course, I'm not quoting and reading back through all those posts again, especially the trash ones, and especially the ones that quoted me but they decided to add words to my original post to make it appear that i was some juvenile... interesting... So I'll just respond as a whole.

All my recent threads pertain to different computers. I own a business that does GRAPHIC DESIGN... i used the GRAPHIC DESIGN term because we do web design, print, 3D, video, special effects, photography, and pretty much anything else that a business would want us to do for them. So we will do a web site, take pictures for the client, film video for the client, do green screen, edit the pictures, edit the video, design logo for client, design business cards and brochures for the client, we will do some fancy 3D stuff, render it, then import it into AfterEffects as a sequence then add effects, text, etc. then render that to a .mov then compress it, then import it into Flash, then add more effects, functionality, etc, etc, etc.... (not including all the 1000's of Photoshop designing we do during all of that) And the whole time we have several Adobe CS4 Master Suite programs open that we are constantly switching back and forth from.. Photoshop, Illustrator, Bridge, InDesign, Premiere, etc, etc, etc... depending on the project. If you like, I can go into even more detail and type a book as a post like some moron. Instead of explaining all that detail (which you do not need to know anyway to answer simple questions), I just listed what SOFTWARE I use where any mature individual with common sense would understand what the computer needs to do.

I'm normally very busy and don't have time to type my life story in a post. I just wanted answers to simple questions. So for those of you who are all interested in me: I have 2 offices.

At office 1 i have 3 computers on my desk:

Computer 1:

• q6600 quad core
  DFI P35 mobo - because i wanted to overclock it one day but haven't yet; and by "it" i mean the CPU (didn't want to offend the "Appropriate Lingo" police)
  8800GTS
  8 gigs gskill ddr2 - because that's the most the board or any board at the time would handle.
  2 Segeate 7200 500gb in raid 0 - yes i like speed, anyone that renders likes SPEED
  and all the other stuff needed for a computer to function (let me know if you're anal and want a list of those parts)
  Vista 64

Computer 2:

• an Intel E(whatever it is) 3.0ghz dual core (no I don't memorize all CPU names)
  MSI P35 Neo2 Mobo
  8800gts
  4gigs gskill ddr2
  1 samsung 7200rpm 500gb HD
  Vista 64

Computer 3:

• Athlon AMD 64bit - I don't even remember the damn speed, but it was the fastest one (I'm sure I'll catch hell for that: "Oh! he didnt know the ghz on his old CPU!.. He's a noob that knows nothing and sux at life! Look at me, I'm better than him!"... get a life)
  MSI K8N Neo
  2gb ram
  ATI 9800 pro (i did have ATI 800xl but gave it to my nephew)
  320gb HD (segate i think)
  XP

Computer 3 was my old computer so I took it out of the case it was in and just threw it in a cheap case and used it on the side to surf the net if I had something rendering on the other computers.... so.. THIS OLD COMPUTER in the CHEAP CASE is the one that had the PSU blow.. or "bust a cap" like someone tried to label me as saying... Really, you guys should go into politics...

At office 2 i have 2 computers on my desk:

Computer 1:

• q6600 cpu (I had it overclocked to 3.2 and was running stable and cool)
  MSI P35 Neo2
  8800GT
  8gigs gskill ddr2
  Zalman cooler - I don't know the model number, but it has a big ass round copper heat sink... the biggest they had for that chip. (I'm sure I'll catch hell for that statement too...)
  2 - 750gb Segate 7200rpm HD - raid 0
  Vista 64

Computer 2:

• Intel E(whatever) 3.0ghz dual core
  4gigs gskill ddr2
  8600gt
  500gb samsung 7200rpm HD
  Vista 64

Computer 1 I had overclocked to 3.2 but 8 months later, I got the BSOD pertaining to win32k.sys. My first guess was RAM... I put it back to stock settings and yet the BSOD still occurred. According to Google (yes I Google everything), I couldn't find anything saying that it could be ram if the BSOD was a win32k.sys so that's why I asked on this forum. So I'm the type that instead of spending valuable time buying and replacing ram, running tests, etc.. I'd just buy all new up to date stuff which is the reason I started asking about i7, xeon, graphics cards, 24-32gb ram, etc...

I also have a Dell XPS Laptop: 2.6ghz T7800, 4gigs ddr667, vista 64, when I bought it, i was talked into the BRAND NEW JUST OUT Samsung SSD that was 64gbs... Problem was, in the design business, 64GB is a joke and i was tired of carrying around an external HD. So I bought a internal 500gb samsung 5400rpm (because that was all that was available at the time, there were no 7200rpm). So my other threads on the LAPTOP stuff pertains to this laptop! Hence the posts about SSD's, etc...

My employee's all have their own computers and I let them do what they want within budget.

As far as monitors go, I have Ben-Q 24", Dell 2408wfp 24" x2, hanns g 28", 2 samsungs (19" 4:3 and 22") and a 24" acer. I just threw in the trash a 19" Nokia CRT and a 21" Panasonic CRT along with a HP Pavilion 2ghz POS computer..... So I'm looking to get better monitors too... thats the reason for my monitor posts since I have 2 locations plus a computer I'm planning on building for the house...

At this point, what I'm leaning toward is keeping my quad cores until the new xeons are out because I want to go commercial grade and get out of consumer. Apple is good in GRAPHIC DESIGN because they use XEONs... period... but i dont want o drop $10+k on an Apple and totally lose the fun of being able to tweak, overclock, etc... My post about the water cooling was for a computer I would like to build for my house. I dont have a computer at home right now since I'm at the office so much and I have laptop. I would like to build a cube type water cooled i7.

No, I'm not new to computers, overclocking nor this forum. This account is not my original account. I had been out of the community for awhile and no longer had my old email so I couldn't retrieve my password on my old Anandtech forum account. So I created this account and when i talked to admin about it, they just deleted my old one and I've been using this one. My first computer was an Atari (yes they made a few computers back in the 80's.. I wanted a commodore 64 but my dad liked the Atari..) then I got a Tandy. Went to college, started work in financial field, got pentium 90mhz laptop. OC'd my first computer when I joined Anandtech when Anand Shimpi was 15years old. I thought it was genius to overclock instead of always buying a new computer. So I OC'd my Packard Bell (ugh) 120mhz... Build my first computer when the Intel 333mhz came out. Paid $800 for the cpu, total build cost almost $4k. i had Cheetah 4gb scsi hd and all. Anand ran a contest to give away hardware he was accumulating from testing and i won the Canopus video card. Anand called me to get my address and i thought he was a very impressive 16 year old! When Anand was the admin on this forum, you didn't see anyone bashing anyone's post. Anand wouldn't allow it. bad language, immature rants, attacking or disrespecting community members was not allowed and was frowned upon by everyone in the community. People would get banned for such things. Some of you looked at all my posts.. well... i looked at some of your posts... Vulgar language in everyone of them, disrespectful comments to other members, etc... Just sad. I guess when you get a community this large you also get a lot more immature people. A mature happy person would never degrade, belittle, curse at, or be disrespectful to someone.

For those of you who posted to honestly help, I thank you!