Dual system starting to take shape **updated**

[Duvie]

Update: may have a lead on a gentlemen who can test cpus and then sell them...I could have a lead on 2 2.4ghz(533fbs0 xeons that can do 3.4 to 3.6ghz on air....The problem is that the Asus PCDL will only do 165 fsb through the bios otherwise it is got to be software ocing...What are the thoughts of you guys with software ocing??? I generally don't like it, and feel there is not as many safeguards if one takes it too far....

Also I will mention I want them at at default vcore since I don't want to have to do any mods voltage wise.

If I am forced to get the Iwill DH800 board I will get up to 200fsb support with a possibly unofficial bios, but will give me definte 800fsb xeon support as well as ayhave a vdimm bios mod for using much higher speed ram.....

All of this may come into more play if I end up saving money on the graohics crad front. After exhausting 2 days of research I may not see any real advantage of going ti a professional CAD card with my apps other then the lighter wallet. So I may get a 9800pro and be set for 300-350 less which I can through into the more expensive board and some better air cooling heatsinks...




Will the research continues but for those who know me it is about hard facts and less about ppls opinions


Currently the fact I am starting to see is the the Xeons will offer me the ability to OC with a few mainboards with the bells and whistles and ability to OC chips like we have with the northwoods......Currently most of the sites I have visited and research make me see the opteron will not afford me those luxuries....

Another thing I noticed is the pricing.....

2 x Xeon 2.66ghz (533fsb) 512kb = 408.00
2 x Xeon 2.8 (533fsb) 512kb = 600.00
2 x Xeon 3.06 (533fsb) 512kb = 836.00
2 x Xeon 3.06 (533fsb) 1mb = 1228.00
2 x Xeon 3.2 (533fsb) 1mb = 1590.00


2 x Opteron 240 (1.4ghz) 1mb = 380.00
2 x Opteron 242 (1.6ghz) 1mb = 554.00
2 x Opteron 244 (1.8ghz) 1mb = 794.00
2 x OPteron 246 (2.0ghz) 1mb = 1268.00
2 x Opteron 248 (2.2ghz) 1mb = 1650.00

The fact is from the reviews I read the 240 is pretty comparable to the 2.66ghz Xeons for the CAD stuff I run.....However from reports I see I have the possibility with the right stepping to reach 3.0-3.2ghz with the Xeon for something more comparable to a 246's (at 1/3 the cost) as well as I will be able to increase the fsb and the memory bandwidth something most of the reviews say the xeon 533fsb desperately to need...In steps nacona (???) which is to be the 800fsb Xeons but they are rumored to be delayed.....

From the ppl I talk to I am highly unlikely to get much out of the 240's other then take them to maybe 2.42 level and require more expensive ram....

Here is one of the better reviews that had some of the latest Xeons versus the best opteron...sadly the site reviewed the flagship opteron versus the 3.06ghz and the 512kb cache version no less.....

OPteron 248's vs Xeon p4 3.06's

Benches #1

Benches #2

Benches #3

Benches #4


The fact is the 248's will run 1650 dollars versus the 836 dollars of the 3.06ghz p4 xeons...That pretty much pays for a GeforceFX 2000 High end Graphic card.....So though the numbers are close in some, favor the opteron in a majority with the Xeons leading in the apps I will be running I think this is a no-brainer....

Go with the 2.66ghz and get one of the more ocing friendly board and try to push the fsb up to 166fsb (666fsb) and increase the bandwidth to 5.3gb versus stock 4.3gb....I also for 1/4 the cost of the 248s get relatively close to the performance int his review or even surpass it a bit.....


System so far.....

2 x Xeon 2.66ghz (533fsb) 512kb.......................408.00
no hsf picked yet
Asus i875 PC-DL or Iwill DH800........................~205.00
470 watt enermax (w/ dual 12v lines).................105.00
GeforceFX Quadro 1100.....................................616.00
2gb (2 x 1gb) Infineon PC3200 ECC(4:5 ratio).....484.00

HDD option #1
74gb Raptor 10000rpm......................................214.00
160gb Maxtor SATA-150......................................97.00

HDD option #2
36.7gb Raptor 10000rpm....................................112.00
80gb Seagate Barracuda SATA.............................63.00

Pioneer DVR-107d (8x dvd-r/-rw/+r/+rw).............99.00
Antec Plusview 1000 AMG SOHO Case..................77.00


If anyolne can show me better data or show me where I can get a similar priced/ performing Opteron system and oc to a higher level "bang for the buck"....Please show me.....I was hoping to go Opteron route on this system but I can't see why yet.


Sidenote very laughable on many of the reviews I did read...No one knew how to test HT and loved showing these dual systems getting laid waste to buy single processor systems...like no one thought of running multiple instance of SETI in the test!!! PLenty of test that can easily show the duallies doing more by other multtasking or running multiple instance. The Architectural Desktop 2004 I run is extremely multithreaded and picked up 22% with HT alone. With this system I will have 4 virtual cpus and 2 physical ones.

 

[MichaelZ]

With this system I will have 4 virtual cpus and 2 physical ones.

wow, that sounds awsome.

Can you overclock the Xeons? I've never seen anyone attempt to overclock one and how well that would work is a unknown world...

 

[Duvie]

Yes you can... I spent hours reading the 2cpu.com site forum where ppl have oc'd them to 200fsb withthe 2.4ghz 533fsb ones to 3.6ghz....Many seen oc'd to 3.2-3.4ghz without water cooling....It seems the Asus and the Iwill are the better one for this....

There are some hacked bioses for some added features as well.....

I would be happy with 2.66's oc'd to a minor 150fsb for 3.15ghz...should be able to do that if I get a c1 stepping...ther are c1's, d1s and M0 floating around...i will try to pinpoint the vendors who do volume in these chips to try to get myslef some M0 steppings....

All i am looking for is some addd bang for the buck...A 3.15ghz system with 600fsb buses could be fairly equivalent to me having to spend 1400-1600 to get same performance from stock in either Opteron or Xeon....That is why I OC...I am cheap!!!

 

[THUGSROOK]

sounds nice

you might wanna go for 160fsb/200ddr tho
(youre gonna need the memspeed with ECC)

 

[Duvie]

That is why I said 4:5 ratio, but if I can only make it to 150fsb I believe in some of the boards they have 3:4 option and that will give me the 200fsb for the memory for 400ddr....

I was thinking about that...

Some guys have modded their boards to run ddr500+ on these things.....amazing....

 

[THUGSROOK]

the fsb still has alot todo with intel performance.
150fsb will choak it.

how high can that ECC ram go?

 

[Zebo]

Have you looked into price/performance of dual XP-M?

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: THUGSROOK
the fsb still has alot todo with intel performance.
150fsb will choak it.

how high can that ECC ram go?

Well the 533fsb modes are all the have but they can go up as high as 200fsb that I have seen depending on the model you get ofcourse...

If I get the Pc3200 infineon stuff it says it is cas 2.5 400ddr.....

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Have you looked into price/performance of dual XP-M?

NO I haven't.....

What boards are out there for dual athlon xp-m's that will oc....Do they have all the bells and whistles necessary to get them to 2.5ghz with a vcore boost???

Can you find a review of this versus the opterons and Xeons...In the CAD there is a nice advantage due to HT and with 2 xeons it is very nice.

I defintely need to look into that since that would be half the cost....How due this work together?? they don't have to be mp chips???

 

[Zebo]

I hav'nt really looked into it that's why I was asking. But the little I've seen, most popular boards are the MSI K7D Master-L which allows for an overclocked FSB 150Mhz. Couple that with two $100 moblie 2600+ @2600 Mhz whould'nt be to bad for $400 total, but I'm just guessing. You post has definity perked my intrest...Time to search

 

[Zebo]

Well starting on page 5 it gets interesting. This guys is running them @2250Mhz and is with the 2.8 xeons and well above the 244 opterons. http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=242155


5324 PC marks @ 2400Mhz http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=286743

You may want to pm or email Westmassguy, over at 2cpu as he's running Iwill MPX2 and 2 x Athlon XP-M 2600+@ 2556mhz for some results. He also has the MSI K7D Master and 2 x Athlon XP-M 2400+ @2448mhz.

CPU Arithmetic Benchmark
Analysing...
Combined Index : 25192 (total)
Finished Successfully : Yes

CPU Multi-Media Benchmark
Analysing...
Combined Index : 99587 (total)
Finished Successfully : Yes

Memory Bandwidth Benchmark
Analysing...
Combined Index : 3444 (total)
Finished Successfully : Yes

http://forums.2cpu.com/showthread.php?s=265f511b67deb02b9580bc5e0a3ede0e&threadid=50446

 

[Mloot]

Duvie, here's the best review I have seen that includes some of the lower speed Xeons and Opterons:

Link


Another thing to think about is that the DH800 is probably going to be the best choice for a motherboard. For one thing, the DH800 has built-in support for the Nocona Xeons, and it is assumed that the PC-DL will also (maybe with a BIOS upgrade), but AFAIK it has not been made official yet. Another thing is that for those high overclocks with the PC-DL, I believe the guys at 2CPU.com had to do some soldering on the board, like VMods and such. Lastly, the DH800 is alot more feature-rich than the PC-DL, but it's also alot more expensive, to the tune of about $380. Text. You should be able to save a little on memory, however, because according to Iwill's product page, the DH800 can take unbuffered, non-ECC memory.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Great thread, get up there^

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: Mloot
Duvie, here's the best review I have seen that includes some of the lower speed Xeons and Opterons:

Link


Another thing to think about is that the DH800 is probably going to be the best choice for a motherboard. For one thing, the DH800 has built-in support for the Nocona Xeons, and it is assumed that the PC-DL will also (maybe with a BIOS upgrade), but AFAIK it has not been made official yet. Another thing is that for those high overclocks with the PC-DL, I believe the guys at 2CPU.com had to do some soldering on the board, like VMods and such. Lastly, the DH800 is alot more feature-rich than the PC-DL, but it's also alot more expensive, to the tune of about $380. Text. You should be able to save a little on memory, however, because according to Iwill's product page, the DH800 can take unbuffered, non-ECC memory.

I have seen the talk about the compatability with the 800fsb xeons as well....I will check into the non buffered non-ecc memory...that will save a bit to pay for the 190% increase in mobo cost...I still can't even find it price listed at newegg.com.....




Damn those Bartons are lookin possibly too good to pass up.....Upgradeability to future 800fsb and the better upgrade path of the opterons was a factor though in choosing between those 2.....Though the cost savings I could throw the board out sooner anyways....

Good stuff guys....

I am short on time today...bidding about a half million dollars in work today....keep it coming though. With the lack of Intel upgardeability in the short run duallies may become a hair more attractive to some...

 

[Mloot]

Originally posted by: Duvie




I have seen the talk about the compatability with the 800fsb xeons as well....I will check into the non buffered non-ecc memory...that will save a bit to pay for the 190% increase in mobo cost...I still can't even find it price listed at newegg.com.....

I believe you can't find it at Newegg because it just became available for sale in the US, and then it may still only be through Iwill's on-line store. Alot of the increased cost for the DH800 is, of course, because it sports a couple of PCI-X slots, which I believe you would want if you are running a large-RAID array, epecially with SCSI.

Here is a decent review that has Opterons, MP's, and Xeons. If you read the whole thing, it goes into the various strengths and weaknesses of each platform, as well as a rough cost analysis of each setup. Of course, they are only testing MP 2800+'s at stock speed, so Mobile Bartons at 2.4-2.5ghz would perform a little better.

 

[Vette73]

The Xeon is near the end of its life (in its current form) and if you run linux you can do 64bit NOW.


I would go with a Opteron system as you can overclock them a little and it will have a larger upgrade path.

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
The Xeon is near the end of its life (in its current form) and if you run linux you can do 64bit NOW.


I would go with a Opteron system as you can overclock them a little and it will have a larger upgrade path.

Actually the talk is he nacona or 800fsb Xeons with 1mb that haven't even been released yet are a bit off so I don't think the upgrae path is dead specialy since I could possible upgrade to those and from review I read they will be a healthy boost with 800fsb as the xeons are bandwidth limited.....


I am still looking at the opterons and I would like a review that shows the advantage of 64bit now though I don't run Linux to see if it offsets the fact the ocing will be minor....I actually think the cost of a comparabvle opteron is more then the xeon right now...Soo...

1) can oc very little
2) cost a bit more on the cpus
3) I don't run Linux or apps for Linux
4) can oc the P4s to levels that save me near a 1000 bucks
5) HT for 2 chips and the apps I run are SSE2 optimized and HT optimized

Right now I am leaning Xeon, then a tight second with the Opteron for the fact te 64bit could be a boom down the road....The barton is a bit at the ed even though it is likely the better cost factor, but...

1) I think there is a bit of modding I don't like to do to get the Barton M to work in a SMP config....
2) The price difference isn't that great...
3) The mobo will defiitely be a dead end as I see the Barton line ending soon and so the 2.6ghz oc'd incarnation will be unique....
4) I need to see more hard benchmarks and not sissoft as my Barton at 3200+ scores as high as a 3.5ghz without HT on....
5) nO sse2....No HT

 

[Vette73]

The Opterons do have sse2. The problem is some programs have not been updated yet to turn that on for Opterons.


Also I do not see anyboards that support 800Mhz FSB, ONLY 533Mhz
And the board you listed only supports 333Mhz Ram, and you CANNOT overclock if you want to use the SATA.

 

[NightCrawler]

People are to addicted to overclocking, servers are suppose to be fast and reliable. If you are building a server then overclocking shouldn't be at the top of the list.

In business we would be shot if we overclocked our machines!

 

[Mloot]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
The Opterons do have sse2. The problem is some programs have not been updated yet to turn that on for Opterons.


Also I do not see anyboards that support 800Mhz FSB, ONLY 533Mhz
And the board you listed only supports 333Mhz Ram, and you CANNOT overclock if you want to use the SATA.

Actually, Iwill's new DH800 has built in support for the 800mhz FSB Xeons. I believe it is the first board to sport that feature.

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
The Opterons do have sse2. The problem is some programs have not been updated yet to turn that on for Opterons.


Also I do not see anyboards that support 800Mhz FSB, ONLY 533Mhz
And the board you listed only supports 333Mhz Ram, and you CANNOT overclock if you want to use the SATA.

Except for the fact I will just get an SATA add on card and disable it through the mobo if that is the case...I will look into to see if that is the case. With a functioning agp/pci lock like most INtel boards since i845 I would not see the reason why this would not be available, especially given the fact fsb adjustments can be made

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: NightCrawler
People are to addicted to overclocking, servers are suppose to be fast and reliable. If you are building a server then overclocking shouldn't be at the top of the list.

In business we would be shot if we overclocked our machines!

I am not building a server....This is just a CAD machine....I run it on my OC'd system now and I have never crashed so I don't find it a problem for what I do.....

So here is my main points in considering the winner of the upgrade....

1) Fastest option in this application and similar apps
2) Overclockability (Bang for the Buck)
3) cost per cpu comparison
4) upgradeability for next round or higher speed chips later

 

[Mloot]

Duvie, I look forward to hearing about your results, once you get your system built and tweaked. Be sure to keep us updated on your progress. I'll be building my own dually next week, once my finals are finished. I chose to go the Opteron route because I got a good deal on the CPU's, and I wanted to be able to run a 64-bit OS after (mainly Win 64-bit) it was released and stable. At the time I got the procs, I don't think it had yet been announced that the Nocona Xeons might have 64-bit capabilities. I'm pretty nervous about doing the build (it'll be my first time), and I just hope I don't screw something up.

In your case (and this is just my opinion), going with Opterons probably wouldn't give you the band-for-the-buck you are looking for, and the oc'ing options are pretty limited. When you can take two fairly cheap 2.4 or 2.66 M0 stepping Xeons and crank them up to 3.4-3.5ghz (maybe higher if you get good chips and perhaps water cool), I don't think you'll find that kind of performance in an Opteron chip in the same price range. And, like you said, the 800mhz FSB Xeons will provide a nice upgrade path for you.

 

[Mingon]

I can always give you 2 x 2500+@ 2.5 scores on anything you want when my mobo returns.

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: Mingon
I can always give you 2 x 2500+@ 2.5 scores on anything you want when my mobo returns.

definitely!!! What happened to the mobo??? Also tell me the procedure you have to do to make 2 mobile bartons work in smp operation on a dual cpu mobo???

I would lik some scores in...

POVRay v3.5
Cinebench 2004
Winrar or other data compression
WM9 codec
Divx 5.1 codec or greater

I need some encoding numbers cause many of my animations are converted to these standards for playback in other applications