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Drug war in Mexico

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It is scary that Mexico is a mess.

They are our closest neighbor, along with Canada, and you would think that they are beneffiting from our sphere of influence.

-John

Ideology strikes again. 'Sphere of influence' is a magic bubble that strikes down the drug cartels and the market forces of illegal drugs.

Indeed, this is why Darfur happened. The further a country is from the US, the less protection the Sphere of influence gives them.

If there were people on the moon, they'd be a disaster, except near where the US flag was planted, an Oasis of peace.
 
War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.

{George Orwell, 1984}

-John

"Reeling and Writhing, of course, to begin with, and then the different branches of arithmetic -- Ambition, Distraction, Uglification, and Derision."

-Turtle from Alice in Wonderland
 
Funny, but no. The army has been doing a good job kicking cartel ass, despite corrupt politicians and corrupt police getting in their way.

Really? If the army is kicking their ass why are they still around? Its the friggen army against drug cartels.... Exactly how shitty is Mexico's army? I would think even a friggen ragtag army from a country the size of Mexico should be able to stomp out a few drug cartels in no time.

There are a ton of shitholes around the world and their military keeps people/groups like Mexico's drug cartels in check if they aren't bought off. Hell, I could figure out how to stomp them out with a decent (for the country) and loyal army.
 
Not to mention, that drugs are plentiful.

Such a crock of shit. People are dying, our Government is going broke and it is all due to this fabricated, War on Drugs.

-John
 
Ideology strikes again. 'Sphere of influence' is a magic bubble that strikes down the drug cartels and the market forces of illegal drugs.

Indeed, this is why Darfur happened. The further a country is from the US, the less protection the Sphere of influence gives them.

If there were people on the moon, they'd be a disaster, except near where the US flag was planted, an Oasis of peace.
Do you doubt our sphere of influence?

-John
 
Sphere of influence is what happens when a success performs his everyday activites. That Mexico did not partake, is scary, and either tells a lot about us, or Mexico.

-John
 
Sphere of influence is what happens when a success performs his everyday activites. That Mexico did not partake, is scary, and either tells a lot about us, or Mexico.

-John

The violence in Mexico is a direct result of our 'Sphere of Influence'. The drug war forces the traffic underground and with the huge profits to be made, you see the end results.
 
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So it tells a lot about us.

That we would rather, fight a war on drugs, than invite Mexico in to help us produce more.

-John
 
Sphere of influence is what happens when a success performs his everyday activites. That Mexico did not partake, is scary, and either tells a lot about us, or Mexico.

-John

Ideology strikes again - oh, the ignorance.

Hint: Colonial powers were not 'successful countries' who 'went about their business' with their sphere of influence magically showing the light to developing nations.

Our 'sphere of influence' with Mexico has had more impact from stealing half their country a century and a half ago, to putting their corn farmers out of business today.

But they're welcome to be our serfs, in our factories - the lucky ones, that is.
 
Really? If the army is kicking their ass why are they still around? Its the friggen army against drug cartels.... Exactly how shitty is Mexico's army? I would think even a friggen ragtag army from a country the size of Mexico should be able to stomp out a few drug cartels in no time.

There are a ton of shitholes around the world and their military keeps people/groups like Mexico's drug cartels in check if they aren't bought off. Hell, I could figure out how to stomp them out with a decent (for the country) and loyal army.

Why hasn't the U.S. military beaten a bunch of cavemen in Afghanistan yet?

This isn't an enemy you beat on the battlefield or force to surrender. Its an enemy made up of delinquent citizens, who hide and dissolve back into the rest of the population. They draw endless manpower from the citizenry and use corrupt politicians and law enforcement to remain invisible and untouchable. In the causes where the cartels have exposed themselves, and engage the military head on, the cartels have had their asses handed to them. They can't compete with the training, skill, manpower, or equipment of a professional army head on.

And I'm sure you can figure out how to get rid of the cartels, just like I am sure all the internet armchair generals can figure out how to win in Afghanistan.
 
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Why hasn't the U.S. military beaten a bunch of cavemen in Afghanistan yet?

This isn't an enemy you beat on the battlefield or force to surrender. Its an enemy made up of delinquent citizens, who hide and dissolve back into the rest of the population. They draw endless manpower from the citizenry and use corrupt politicians and law enforcement to remain invisible and untouchable. In the causes where the cartels have exposed themselves, and engage the military head on, the cartels have had their asses handed to them. They can't compete with the training, skill, manpower, or equipment of a professional army head on.

And I'm sure you can figure out how to get rid of the cartels, just like I am sure all the internet armchair generals can figure out how to win in Afghanistan.

Did you ever stop to think that those people are part of the citizenry?
 
Why hasn't the U.S. military beaten a bunch of cavemen in Afghanistan yet?

This isn't an enemy you beat on the battlefield or force to surrender. Its an enemy made up of delinquent citizens, who hide and dissolve back into the rest of the population. They draw endless manpower from the citizenry and use corrupt politicians and law enforcement to remain invisible and untouchable. In the causes where the cartels have exposed themselves, and engage the military head on, the cartels have had their asses handed to them. They can't compete with the training, skill, manpower, or equipment of a professional army head on.

And I'm sure you can figure out how to get rid of the cartels, just like I am sure all the internet armchair generals can figure out how to win in Afghanistan.

That's why the Mongols just killed anyone who fought back. Wiped out entire populations because a few would pick up arms. Why risk it?
 
Ideology strikes again - oh, the ignorance.

Hint: Colonial powers were not 'successful countries' who 'went about their business' with their sphere of influence magically showing the light to developing nations.

Our 'sphere of influence' with Mexico has had more impact from stealing half their country a century and a half ago, to putting their corn farmers out of business today.

But they're welcome to be our serfs, in our factories - the lucky ones, that is.
A sphere of influence, is just that.

Our success through the last 200 years, should have generated some success for Mexico.

But, here today, we are having to face Mexican Drug Gangs.

Why do you think that is?

-John
 
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A sphere of influence, is just that.

Our success through the last 200 years, should have generated some success for Mexico.

But, here today, we are having to face Mexican Drug Gangs.

Why do you think that is?

-John

Why yes our taking half their country, undercutting their markets with our subsidized corporate agriculture, pouring billions into the hands of drug cartels...

These things should make Mexico a paradise.

Imagine our neighbor pouring billions into our country to build up such cartels.

Oh, wait, they sorta do, the arms cartels. But just political corruption, not street crime.
 
Ideology strikes again - oh, the ignorance.

Hint: Colonial powers were not 'successful countries' who 'went about their business' with their sphere of influence magically showing the light to developing nations.

Our 'sphere of influence' with Mexico has had more impact from stealing half their country a century and a half ago, to putting their corn farmers out of business today.

But they're welcome to be our serfs, in our factories - the lucky ones, that is.
Wow, congrats on packing so much Marxist agitprop into such a small space. We're left still wondering if there is one tiny place where you do not consider America, capitalism, and European people to be the Antichrist Trinity. I suppose some mysteries are simply unknowable . . .
 
Wow, congrats on packing so much Marxist agitprop into such a small space. We're left still wondering if there is one tiny place where you do not consider America, capitalism, and European people to be the Antichrist Trinity. I suppose some mysteries are simply unknowable . . .

My post: basic history. Something you are clearly ignorant of.

Your post: you're a liar. Add to that your hyperbole - Marxist, Antichrist - it's garbage.
 
Why hasn't the U.S. military beaten a bunch of cavemen in Afghanistan yet?

This isn't an enemy you beat on the battlefield or force to surrender. Its an enemy made up of delinquent citizens, who hide and dissolve back into the rest of the population. They draw endless manpower from the citizenry and use corrupt politicians and law enforcement to remain invisible and untouchable. In the causes where the cartels have exposed themselves, and engage the military head on, the cartels have had their asses handed to them. They can't compete with the training, skill, manpower, or equipment of a professional army head on.

And I'm sure you can figure out how to get rid of the cartels, just like I am sure all the internet armchair generals can figure out how to win in Afghanistan.

We are talking about a battle in your homeland not some place that most of your citizens couldn't find on a map.

A better analogy would be putting the US Army on the US/Mexico border to stop illegal immigration. The US Army would have the illegal immigration problem solved in a week if we deployed them on the border.

We also aren't talking about the "peasants" that can blend back into the normal folk. We are talking about the cartels, who can blend in with the peasants as well as Bill Gates can in the ghetto. Hell, they could put the entire Army on the border and cut off 3/4ths of their income overnight.

We aren't talking rocket science when you have a freakin army against drug cartels. Why do I keep reading about border towns that can't keep a sheriff because they (along with their families a lot of times) keep getting executed?
 
Why yes our taking half their country
Shrug, shit happened a long time ago. I am not going to apologize for the things that made this country great. We fucked over the Native Americans much worse. Are you suggesting we just give it all back?
undercutting their markets with our subsidized corporate agriculture

Such is the way business works. Again, would you prefer we put American farmers out of business and rely on Mexico for our food? I am no fan of Ag subsidies but I am REALLY not a fan of being utterly dependant upon another country for our food.

pouring billions into the hands of drug cartels...

You got a point there, the drug war has made a very profitable blackmarket trade. When there is a fuckton of money to be made someone will always step up to make it.


Imagine our neighbor pouring billions into our country to build up such cartels.
Oh, wait, they sorta do, the arms cartels. But just political corruption, not street crime.

No, they actually do. They are the suppliers and we are the buyers. They pour billions into making it and we pour trillions into buying it. They get drug cartels and we get gangs and street violence as a result. I will concede that it is the result of our drug policy, not theirs.
 
Shrug, shit happened a long time ago. I am not going to apologize for the things that made this country great. We fucked over the Native Americans much worse. Are you suggesting we just give it all back?

No, since you apparently are having difficulty following what I was replying to, I'll repeat it.

There was a post that Mexico should be doing much better economically because our greatness should just have sprinkled off on them since they're close.

I was pointing out that rather than their doing better because we're doing well, that we've done a lot of harm, and listed examples.

Contrary to the implication in your post, I did not list those things just 'out of the blue' not responding to anything.

Such is the way business works.

What an empty, vapid, ignorant comment about the issue of mega-agribusiness corporate government subsidies' effects on local farmers.

No, in fact, this is a policy issue, not the way it simply works. And it is an issue that needs a lot better policy analysis than your comment.

Again, would you prefer we put American farmers out of business and rely on Mexico for our food? I am no fan of Ag subsidies but I am REALLY not a fan of being utterly dependant upon another country for our food.

Could you be a little more ridiculous? I think you're close to an award.

Hint: the next step from big Agra being subsidized and stomping on the local Mexican farmers is not our being dependent on Mexico for our food.

That's like saying we have to invade and conquer Brazil right now, because the alternative of their conquering us is worse. Your logic needs medical attention.

You got a point there, the drug war has made a very profitable blackmarket trade. When there is a fuckton of money to be made someone will always step up to make it.

The point is that we are hiring with our billions of dollars, a vast criminal enterprise in Mexico, not exactly doing them a favor.

Then we demand they devote their limited government resources to fighting the vast criminal enterprise we're arming with billions of dollars; and we're having a lot of other negative effects, such as draining their labor force away from something productive into the drug industry to serve our market.

No, they actually do. They are the suppliers and we are the buyers. They pour billions into making it and we pour trillions into buying it. They get drug cartels and we get gangs and street violence as a result. I will concede that it is the result of our drug policy, not theirs.

Their drug industry is created by our funding. One more gift from us to them.

We're not some victims where they're the ones pushing unwanted drugs on us for their benefit, like the history of the Chinese having Opium pushed by the British.

An 'enemy' might say, 'Here are billions of dollars for you to form criminal organizations and harm your society'. The drug market does the same thing, basically.

Mexico has a legitimate argument that we are causing devastation on them with our drug money.

Americans don't understand that because they can't relate. There's no one able - yet - to do anything like that to us.
 
We are talking about a battle in your homeland not some place that most of your citizens couldn't find on a map.

A better analogy would be putting the US Army on the US/Mexico border to stop illegal immigration. The US Army would have the illegal immigration problem solved in a week if we deployed them on the border.

We also aren't talking about the "peasants" that can blend back into the normal folk. We are talking about the cartels, who can blend in with the peasants as well as Bill Gates can in the ghetto. Hell, they could put the entire Army on the border and cut off 3/4ths of their income overnight.

We aren't talking rocket science when you have a freakin army against drug cartels. Why do I keep reading about border towns that can't keep a sheriff because they (along with their families a lot of times) keep getting executed?

I don't see how the battle being at home makes things any easier. This isn't a war zone, the army doesn't have free reign to go around blowing up houses, conduct raids without warrants, occupy towns, or act as the law. They very rarely use heavy weapons, such as cannons, grenade launchers, and heavy machine guns because they are prohibited unless they get special permission. If the army took a more heavy handed approach, the population, already unhappy with the military presence, would not stand for it. Civilian law rules and the army is acting like a heavily armed police force, not an army in a war zone.

What do you mean the cartels can't blend in with the population? Mexicans can't blend in with Mexicans? The cartel henchmen aren't like Bill Gates, they are ordinary Mexican citizens employed by the cartels. There is no super secret cartel HQ where all the members of the cartel live. They live everywhere, in the cities, in houses, apartments, etc. A random person in a street, or in a coffee shop, or in a bar could be employed by a cartel and no one around him or her would know. They have their days off and vacations too.

An I do not doubt that, if they really wanted to, the U.S. could seal the border. Not sure how this is relevant.
 
We in the US had the mafia and related organized crime grow and thrive in prohibition. We didn't 'solve it' without legalization.

The international drug trade is one of the top two markets in the world. That kind of money is going to be very difficult for law enforcement and government to fight.

We're the demand side of the issue - our billions for drugs there is like Al Queda was pouring billions a year into the US to pay for terrorist activity.

And the problem is only going to grow in the US, especially with millions of poor people from Mexico who are pretty isolated being a large pool for the cartels to hire from.

Our 'demand side' reduction efforts have not done well, including imprisonment for drugs that dominates our prison system and has the largest industrialized prison rate globally.

It's not easy to see any choices but legalization, or massive violence and corruption with huge criminal organizations here and in other countries.

That's just a BS rationale for legalizing it. You can't fight it so embrace it?
Screw that. Make drug trafficing a captial offense. 1st conviction, death sentance. Sell it to kids. Death sentance. Someone dies using your product. Death sentance.
Make a real effort to curtail the use, not these lame attempts. Drug smugglers get less time in prison in some cases than some dude busted with a joint.
 
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