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Drone memo released - heavily redacted

K

Knowing

Golden Member
“We do not believe that al-Aulaqi’s U.S. citizenship imposes constitutional limitations that would preclude the contemplated lethal action” by the U.S. military or CIA, the memo concluded, clearing the way for a drone strike that would trigger intense legal and political debate.

...

Important sections of the Justice Department’s legal analysis were stripped from the version of the document released to the public. Among the deleted portions were paragraphs that presumably explained why the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel determined that killing Awlaki in a drone strike would not violate the Fourth Amendment, which guarantees due process to U.S. citizens accused of crimes.

...

The administration has acknowledged killing three other U.S. citizens in Yemen, including Awlaki’s teenage son in a separate strike a month after his father was killed. But only the elder Awlaki was targeted intentionally, according to U.S. officials who have said the others were killed incidentally in strikes against other targets.
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Incidentally, the terrorist the government alleged it was targeting when it killed Abdulrahman is still alive.

Washington Post

It feels like 2004 all over again, except no one's protesting. It was a crisis for civil libertarians when Jose Padilla wasn't going to get a civilian trial, but now the government can execute minor US citizens born and raised in Denver, CO without so much as a peep.
 
eskimospy said:
Yes, not so much as a peep.

https://www.aclu.org/national-security/al-aulaqi-v-panetta

The ACLU is one of the most important organizations that exists in America today, we should all donate.
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I agree on the ACLU.

It is really disturbing to me this Al-Awlaki killing. Not just the constitutional ramifications. But the the fact the govt has successfully had two cases dismissed as outside the scope of the judiciary. If we don't have regress within the courts to prevent or address a killing of a US citizens without due process. Then where the hell do we go?

This guy pleaded with the court system before his son was killed and was denied. His son was killed as promised and the follow up case was also dismissed. Scary when you think about the potential for abuse on this topic.
 
eskimospy said:
Yes, not so much as a peep.

https://www.aclu.org/national-security/al-aulaqi-v-panetta

The ACLU is one of the most important organizations that exists in America today, we should all donate.
Click to expand...

There were people in the streets burning effigies over Bush's violations of the 4th amendment. I'd rather be confined and later given a trial than have my child unilaterally executed by drone with no public legal basis. The response is asymmetric.

I would donate to the ACLU if they'd update their opinion on the 2nd to reconcile DC v. Heller because I don't arbitrarily pick and choose my civil liberties.
 
Knowing said:
There were people in the streets burning effigies over Bush's violations of the 4th amendment. I'd rather be confined and later given a trial than have my child unilaterally executed by drone with no public legal basis. The response is asymmetric.

I would donate to the ACLU if they'd update their opinion on the 2nd to reconcile DC v. Heller because I don't arbitrarily pick and choose my civil liberties.
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It's unfortunate that you would make it easier for the government to attack all of our civil liberties because you don't share a civil liberties organization's view on one of them. I guess it's up to the rest of us to make up for your shortsightedness.

The civil liberties response is asymmetric because back in the Bush years the democrats could combine civil liberties principles with political expediency. Now they can't. Conservatives have tried to find the civil liberties religion, but considering their actions during the Bush years their opposition is pretty obviously hypocritical. Actual civil libertarians in this country are fairly few in number. That's how you get people excusing not supporting civil liberties organizations because of guns.
 
Knowing said:
There were people in the streets burning effigies over Bush's violations of the 4th amendment. I'd rather be confined and later given a trial than have my child unilaterally executed by drone with no public legal basis. The response is asymmetric.

I would donate to the ACLU if they'd update their opinion on the 2nd to reconcile DC v. Heller because I don't arbitrarily pick and choose my civil liberties.
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Well that is why we have the NRA 😉

And yes I understand they aren't exactly champions of the 2nd amendment. However their political clout has silenced all but a handful of loons in congress.
 
Genx87 said:
I agree on the ACLU.

It is really disturbing to me this Al-Awlaki killing. Not just the constitutional ramifications. But the the fact the govt has successfully had two cases dismissed as outside the scope of the judiciary. If we don't have regress within the courts to prevent or address a killing of a US citizens without due process. Then where the hell do we go?

This guy pleaded with the court system before his son was killed and was denied. His son was killed as promised and the follow up case was also dismissed. Scary when you think about the potential for abuse on this topic.
Click to expand...

There's an infosec podcast I listen to and one of interviews I particularly like was a couple of years ago with an agency alum. He said he was giving a talk in Europe and after the talk another speaker (iirc), a woman from Germany came up to him and said (paraphrasing) "What luck for Americans that they've never had a truly evil government." Now this was well before the APT1 report or Snowden, etc, and the podcast is Australian so they can say that without it being tinfoil. I wouldn't think there'd be any value in granting government a power that they wouldn't want being used by their political enemies, but after all of the recent news it seems like lawlessness is the new normal. I'll try and find that episode in the remote chance that anyone cares.

eskimospy said:
It's unfortunate that you would make it easier for the government to attack all of our civil liberties because you don't share a civil liberties organization's view on one of them. I guess it's up to the rest of us to make up for your shortsightedness.
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Why would I promote their efforts to undermine even one of my civil liberties? Why would I spend my dollars, earned through my work on that effort? So that I with a small voice can try to argue with an organization that has the benefit of my money!? I also don't vote for the lesser evil, so thanks to everyone who votes for evil candidates because of my shortsightedness.

eskimospy said:
The civil liberties response is asymmetric because back in the Bush years the democrats could combine civil liberties principles with political expediency.
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I know that now, it's a lot of why I'm extra critical of democrats. Now that it's not politically expedient they've demonstrated that they don't actually care about civil liberties.
 
Knowing said:
Why would I promote their efforts to undermine even one of my civil liberties? Why would I spend my dollars, earned through my work on that effort? So that I with a small voice can try to argue with an organization that has the benefit of my money!? I also don't vote for the lesser evil, so thanks to everyone who votes for evil candidates because of my shortsightedness.
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What efforts do they make to undermine your civil liberties?
 
eskimospy said:
What efforts do they make to undermine your civil liberties?
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They believe that the 2nd is the only collective right in the bill of rights (as opposed to the first which is an individual right that may be exercised collectively). If they were for the maximization of individual rights as I am, they would take advantage of DC v. Heller and McDonald v. Chicago and update - but they aren't, so they didn't.

They have every right to their opinion, even if it's demonstrably wrong.
 
Knowing said:
They believe that the 2nd is the only collective right in the bill of rights (as opposed to the first which is an individual right that may be exercised collectively). If they were for the maximization of individual rights as I am, they would take advantage of DC v. Heller and McDonald v. Chicago and update - but they aren't, so they didn't.

They have every right to their opinion, even if it's demonstrably wrong.
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I'm confused. Are you saying that the very act of them having a contrary opinion undermines your rights? Or that by not filing more second amendment based lawsuits they are undermining your rights? These seem like very strange standards for what constitutes undermining.

I would think that for them to engage in "efforts to undermine your civil liberties" that were significant enough to serve as cause to deliberately not donate to a group you otherwise heavily support the objectives of that you would be able to point to something more substantial than simply holding a contrary opinion that they don't act on.
 
Knowing said:
They believe that the 2nd is the only collective right in the bill of rights (as opposed to the first which is an individual right that may be exercised collectively). If they were for the maximization of individual rights as I am, they would take advantage of DC v. Heller and McDonald v. Chicago and update - but they aren't, so they didn't.

They have every right to their opinion, even if it's demonstrably wrong.
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So not directly fighting for gun rights, means they are undermining them? Seriously?

No person is perfect, therefore, no organization of people is perfect. They are fighting the good fight on the vast majority of civil liberties and the only one they aren't has the most powerful lobby (NRA) in the US fighting for it.
 
eskimospy said:
The ACLU is one of the most important organizations that exists in America today, we should all donate.
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Really?

You're funny, tell me another one.

The ACLU tries to stop the death penalty, but will not protect people who have not even been convicted.

Talk about a sad joke of a civil liberties organization.
 
Zorba said:
So not directly fighting for gun rights, means they are undermining them? Seriously?
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By arguing that gun rights are collective and not individual, yes, their position is at odds with mine.

Now if it's possible it'd be just super if we could get back on the topic of the disappearing 4th amendment. That used to be a big deal when it was "politically expedient."
 
Knowing said:
There were people in the streets burning effigies over Bush's violations of the 4th amendment. I'd rather be confined and later given a trial than have my child unilaterally executed by drone with no public legal basis. The response is asymmetric.

I would donate to the ACLU if they'd update their opinion on the 2nd to reconcile DC v. Heller because I don't arbitrarily pick and choose my civil liberties.
Click to expand...

We don't have to donate to the ACLU for safety and security in our person and effects.

These things are inviolate, and covered by the United States Constitution.

Government and fags like the ACLU will keep making money, and portending that Government is what is important, when it is the individual that is important.

-John
 
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Zorkorist said:
How the Rule of Man, is important, and not the failed, Rule of Law.

-John
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“I will keep the law given by God; sanctioned by man. Laws and principles are not for the times when there is no temptation: they are for such moments as this, when body and soul rise in mutiny against their rigour; stringent are they; inviolate they shall be. If at my individual convenience I might break them, what would be their worth?”
 
The founding fathers would be ashamed.

All men are created equal, and endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights.

So much for due process.
 
Just start putting a few tactical nukes on the drones and get it over with 😛

You don't want me for President I'd just blow the SOB's up and get it over with.

Enemies attacking your dead, end of story like it used to be, then I'd work on the other problems.

Like internal infrastructure and keeping the guys that are making insane profits off lobbyists for years now.

Yeah I'd fuck a lot of people up.

I'd be like Marine Corps boot camp on the Government and the crazies attacking.

This country needs a good boot camp these days.

Unfortunately the guys that have been raping it for years for profit.

I'm starting to sound like Stewox a bit, he has half a point in his disjointed posts actually.

You really can't go full blown retard though, or the whole planet would be a big rock floating in space wait to see if racoons would inherit it or something.

Still...
 
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MongGrel said:
Just start putting a few tactical nukes on the drones and get it over with 😛

You don't want me for President I'd just blow the SOB's up and get it over with.

Enemies attacking your dead, end of story like it used to be, then I'd work on the other problems.

Like internal infrastructure and keeping the guys that are making insane profits off lobbyists for years now.

Yeah I'd fuck a lot of people up.

I'd be like Marine Corps boot camp on the Government and the crazies attacking.

This country needs a good boot camp these days.

Unfortunately the guys that have been raping it for years for profit.

I'm starting to sound like Stewox a bit, he has half a point in his disjointed posts actually.

You really can't go full blown retard though, or the whole planet would be a big rock floating in space wait to see if racoons would inherit it or something.

Still...
Click to expand...

I think it will come to that. Only takes a regional nuke war say between Pakistan and India to destroy life on earth. Pakistan secular Army stilll has hold of nukes but that wont last forever plus proliferation as time goes on. Saudi wants them. Iran wants them. etc. And way humans like to fight since the beginning of time....yeah done deal. Just enjoy your life in meantime. All problems seem really small to me when I know Nuclear Armageddon is on the horizon.
 
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Knowing said:
By arguing that gun rights are collective and not individual, yes, their position is at odds with mine.

Now if it's possible it'd be just super if we could get back on the topic of the disappearing 4th amendment. That used to be a big deal when it was "politically expedient."
Click to expand...

Maybe if you want the fourth amendment to disappear more slowly you will reconsider your irrational opposition to the ACLU.
 
Zorkorist said:
We don't have to donate to the ACLU for safety and security in our person and effects.

These things are inviolate, and covered by the United States Constitution.

Government and fags like the ACLU will keep making money, and portending that Government is what is important, when it is the individual that is important.

-John
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If they were inviolate, then we wouldn't need to worry about them being violated. They clearly aren't. That's why we need "fags" like the ACLU.
 
Victorian Gray said:
You've tried twice and no one has bitten. 3rd time a charm?
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What is sad, the government and the citizens somehow excuse the killing of US citizens without due process.

Where is the aclu? There must not be any money to be made off this case.

Where is the news? To question obama and his record of upholding human rights would be an insult to those who supported obama.

Why aren't people marching on washington dc demanding obama not kill us citizens without unaccountability?
 
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