DRM is just killing PC gaming as much as piracy is...only the consumer loses.

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shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,082
136
Originally posted by: astrosfan315
Is there even a decent game that uses starforce? It's hard for me to have an opinion one way or the other when the games I play don't have starforce. I looked through this entire list http://forums.frugalsworld.com...owthread.php?p=1104352 and didn't see anything worth playing, so pretty fortunate then to not have any problems with my system :)

Theres one or two games I do play, and a buttload I would LIKE to play if it werent for the DRM.

One of the many reasons I am pissed off at PC gaming right now is all the fun I could be having, but breaking my system just isnt worth it. So I am bored.
 

wanderer27

Platinum Member
Aug 6, 2005
2,173
15
81
Originally posted by: acheron
Originally posted by: Modelworks
DRM and piracy both are killing the pc platform. If those two issues were resolved you would still have compatibility problems but we lived through those in the past and pc gaming did okay.

I had some friends who were working on a product that would have handled both issues well, but they quit after seeing the market for pc games as a whole drop. The product was games that run from the DVD like the consoles. You turn on your pc and boot from the DVD. It only uses the hard drive for game saves and caching data. It ran its own OS with its own drivers so it was just like a console. They got Quake 3 working that way and it looked good, but then they just lost hope when they talked to publishers and the publishers were not interested. People could have still copied the disc but they would have had to buy specific models of burners to make it work with custom firmware. Still doable but would have been more like the way people have to modify consoles for it to work and not nearly as easy as downloading and playing.

The project has since gone open source , see here:
http://live.linux-gamers.net/

So they reinvented the PC Booter? Used to have a few games that ran that way.

Interesting idea actually, though I wouldn't be excited about rebooting my computer every time I play a game.

You know, this is actually a really good idea.
Why not just have a bootable DVD game?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I would think this would make pirating a fair bit more difficult.
You would have to actually burn a copy to a DVD once any cracking was done.
Might be a bit more challenging to do, and would probably be more of a deterrent to casual piracy.

Then again, the publishers would likely put some absurd read/write authentication on the original DVD :disgust:
Might knock Steam and the Digital vendors out of the loop, unless they went with a different version for that.

Hmmm, patching might be an issue too . . . . we all know about the quality of games these days :roll:




 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
On the bright side, it forced you to back up your OS, which you should have been doing already.

So you're a little less likely to be starting a "my HD crashed how can I rescue my files" thread in General Hardware next week :)
 

JoshGuru7

Golden Member
Aug 18, 2001
1,020
1
0
As I've posted in the last thread, the game that made me step back from PC gaming (and become more anti-DRM) was Bioshock. Of course I ended up giving them the money twice because I bought the PS3 version so I just ended up encouraging them. I guess what I'm saying is don't be like me?

As far as PC vs. console gaming, I truly don't understand the people who trash console gaming. Good console games often get ported to the PC and when they don't that doesn't mean the games weren't great. For example, Heavy Rain looks it will be exactly the sort of story driven game that everybody on these forums complains about not having, yet it's a PS3 exclusive. If it turns out as good as many people expect, however, then disdaining it because it's not a "PC game" really only means that you miss out on a great product.

Edit: Link added
 

GundamSonicZeroX

Platinum Member
Oct 6, 2005
2,100
0
0
Originally posted by: wanderer27
Hmmm, patching might be an issue too . . . . we all know about the quality of games these days :roll:

The game could have an auto-updater and just put the patches on the hard drive like the saves.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
Originally posted by: Jack Flash
What's the perfect form of DRM? An 'unbreakable' disc check?

Unbreakable security does exist, or rather extremely hard to break security. I Know of a couple examples of software security that remains intact.

Directv. - I know there system very well. I was with RCA/GE when the very first DBS sat boxes for directv were being designed. It wasn't difficult to crack at first, but the latest revision has been secure for two years now. They learned that in order to have a secure system you can't just control the software, you have to control the hardware to. That means no using of chips that are in other devices and no using hardware that exist in other devices. Everything is made custom. It is expensive , very expensive. But they learned it was the only way to make a secure system.

There is also software that runs entirely on smart cards. Totally self contained. You cannot reverse engineer it without slicing it open with an electron microscope and reading the layers.


The xbox 360 came close. Their mistake was using off the shelf DVD drive hardware. Stuff that anyone had access to. Had MS invested in their own size format, own firmware and own chipsets, they could have killed the pirates. Instead they made the same mistake directv did at first, they used off the shelf hardware.

Things like people tampering with the boards themselves to add mod chips are easy to prevent . Military has done it for years. You coat the board in epoxy after manufacturing. Makes it near impossible to access points on the board without destroying it. But again that adds cost.


The pc will never see that kind of stuff because people like that they can choose hardware. Not everyone wants an off the shelf pc.


 

Markbnj

Elite Member <br>Moderator Emeritus
Moderator
Sep 16, 2005
15,682
14
81
www.markbetz.net
Welcome to the Grand Theft Auto IV Install process.

Grand Theft Auto IV PC requires the installation of software and components including Rockstar Games Social Club, Sony DADC SecuROM, Adobe Flash, Microsoft .NET Framework, Games for Windows - LIVE, Internet Explorer, and DirectX.

To play GTA IV online, you will need an account with both Games for Windows - LIVE and Rockstar Games Social Club.

To review software requirements and information please visit www.rockstargames.com/support.

[ Accept ] [ Exit ]

~~~

I don't personally understand why PC gaming is dying, although it might be that the population of elderly grandmothers who are gamers is being artificially constrained by the diabolical packaging. How many seniors would be gaming _right now_ if they could just... get... the box... open.
 

PhatoseAlpha

Platinum Member
Apr 10, 2005
2,131
21
81
Originally posted by: wanderer27
Originally posted by: acheron
Originally posted by: Modelworks
DRM and piracy both are killing the pc platform. If those two issues were resolved you would still have compatibility problems but we lived through those in the past and pc gaming did okay.

I had some friends who were working on a product that would have handled both issues well, but they quit after seeing the market for pc games as a whole drop. The product was games that run from the DVD like the consoles. You turn on your pc and boot from the DVD. It only uses the hard drive for game saves and caching data. It ran its own OS with its own drivers so it was just like a console. They got Quake 3 working that way and it looked good, but then they just lost hope when they talked to publishers and the publishers were not interested. People could have still copied the disc but they would have had to buy specific models of burners to make it work with custom firmware. Still doable but would have been more like the way people have to modify consoles for it to work and not nearly as easy as downloading and playing.

The project has since gone open source , see here:
http://live.linux-gamers.net/

So they reinvented the PC Booter? Used to have a few games that ran that way.

Interesting idea actually, though I wouldn't be excited about rebooting my computer every time I play a game.

You know, this is actually a really good idea.
Why not just have a bootable DVD game?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I would think this would make pirating a fair bit more difficult.
You would have to actually burn a copy to a DVD once any cracking was done.
Might be a bit more challenging to do, and would probably be more of a deterrent to casual piracy.

Then again, the publishers would likely put some absurd read/write authentication on the original DVD :disgust:
Might knock Steam and the Digital vendors out of the loop, unless they went with a different version for that.

Hmmm, patching might be an issue too . . . . we all know about the quality of games these days :roll:

Sure, might make pirating a bit more difficult. Would make actually playing the game a hell of a lot more difficult though, as linux ain't exactly world famous for it's stellar hardware compatibility.

Imagine a game that not only needs to be patched any time they fix bugs, but any time you upgrade your vid card to something that didn't exist at the game's release. Instead of just game problems, you've got a whole damned OS on the disc that's will need to be dealt with.

PC gaming is windows gaming for a reason - it ain't the game developers handling the million and ten hardware issues.
 

GundamSonicZeroX

Platinum Member
Oct 6, 2005
2,100
0
0
Originally posted by: PhatoseAlpha
Would make actually playing the game a hell of a lot more difficult though, as linux ain't exactly world famous for it's stellar hardware compatibility.

I've had more hardware compatible with Linux (out of the box) than with Vista.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91

If you don't like DRM, then support Stardock, the Gamers' Bill of Rights, and Stardock's game products, such as the excellent Sins of a Solar Empire.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,862
6,396
126
tl:dr

I got Dirt for Xmas, Installed it, played it, had a blast, had no problems. It's time to let it go already. There's always a hubbub about New things, sometimes it's legit at first, but in time the bugs/problems get ironed out. There's always got to be 1 or 2 that get all Idealistic about it though and they tend to go to ridiculous lengths to ruin their own experience because of it.

DRM is here and it's not going away. To continue whipping yourself into a frenzy is a waste of energy.
 

pontifex

Lifer
Dec 5, 2000
43,804
46
91
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

If you don't like DRM, then support Stardock, the Gamers' Bill of Rights, and Stardock's game products, such as the excellent Sins of a Solar Empire.

Why would I support a company that doesn't put out games i like just because they don't use DRM? Turn based strategy games and rehashed tower defense games aren't my cup of tea.
 

mmntech

Lifer
Sep 20, 2007
17,501
12
0
DRM was part of the reason why I gave up PC gaming a couple of years ago. That and how sloppily coded (buggy) they were getting. I just got fed up of paying to beta test software and bought a PS3. Admittedly I do miss the modding & tweaking communities, but PC gaming just became such a hassle and a huge money pit. If I do buy PC games though, I try and buy ones without DRM (Sins of a Solar Empire), or ones that use passive DRM (Fallout 3). Any company that uses active and intrusive DRM, ie Securom (stuff that phones home and limits installs on the same system), will not get my business. I still maintain it's more about killing the used game industry than anything else.
 

tk149

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2002
7,253
1
0
I have chosen not to purchase certain games because of DRM, not only because of what DRM represents, but because I personally have had issues with DRM.

I would also argue that buggy PC games significantly contribute to the decline in PC gaming. I will not buy a newly released game in major part because I don't believe in paying to be a beta tester. I think publishers' reliance on downloading patches has hurt gaming.

That being said, I expect Console gaming to go the same way. I'm tired of installing a new PS3 game and then waiting another hour for the game to patch. The Wii is the only console where I don't get this crap (and the lack of a hard drive basically guarantees that any Wii game won't ever get a big patch).
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
Originally posted by: pontifex
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

If you don't like DRM, then support Stardock, the Gamers' Bill of Rights, and Stardock's game products, such as the excellent Sins of a Solar Empire.

Why would I support a company that doesn't put out games i like just because they don't use DRM? Turn based strategy games and rehashed tower defense games aren't my cup of tea.

If they aren't offering anything interesting to you then don't buy their stuff. I'm hoping that they'll get to distribute games for other studios.
 

WildW

Senior member
Oct 3, 2008
984
20
81
evilpicard.com
I've said it before, I'll say it again. . . if the developers want console level protection from piracy there should be a consolized PC. There's no reason why you can't have a console that plugs into a mouse/keyboard/monitor instead of (or as well as) joypads, and delivers a proper "PC" gaming experience. The 360 and PS3 can do this now, it's just not implemented in any games.

Your consolized PC could even still be a PC, in the same way you can have linux on the PS3 without it being able to access the gaming-graphics hardware. All the DRM issues associated with PC gaming disappear.

 

Golgatha

Lifer
Jul 18, 2003
12,453
1,164
126
Ok, well my install was thankfully quite uneventful. I tried out something out of the ordinary and it worked well. Being well educated in how Starforce works didn't hurt either.


1) Install the game and it will ask you to reboot. DO NOT REBOOT!!

2) Click on reboot later and directly apply the 1.21 and 1.22 patches.

3) You can now play the game without rebooting because the 1.22 patch removes Starforce.


I can confirm Starforce is not present after rebooting and never even gets a chance to run its installer if you use the above described installation method.

If you have previously installed this game, you may want to run the Starforce removal tool.
 

MStele

Senior member
Sep 14, 2009
410
0
0
While I'll admit that the OP has good points, this particular post is only enphasizing DRM problems that were apparent 2 years ago but those times are changing.

My point is this. Dirt was released at a time when many companies were "experimenting" with DRM. I'm as anti-drm as the next person, but I'm not one of those people that think companies hate consumers and only care about the bottom dollar. They need repeat business to stay profitable, and they wouldn't purposefully screw us over.

You brought up Dirt in good measure. To even mention Starforce is considered blasphemy to many pc gamers, and unfortunately Dirt, which was a good game, was one of many released during that short time period which came with oppressive DRM. That being said, times are changing and Dirt is not representative of the future, nor is even representative of the present. While there are companies that are still playing with various types of DRM, our complaints have not gone unnoticed, and not just by the smaller companies like Stardock. Bioware has publically announced that they are going with a "simple cd check" system, and has stated that they are simply going to have to do the best they can and trust the consumer. Sims 3 has been released with "simple cd check", and EA is considered one of the more oppressive distributers in regards to DRM, so in some ways this can be considered an olive branch of sorts. There are many other games coming down the pipe that are going to be released in similar ways.

I wanted to comment on another topic that manifests itself constantly. PC gaming is not dying. I agree with one of the earlier posters. Piracy generally stays consistant, and in general has not hurt gaming in a serious way. More to the point, console games are pirated nearly 3-1 versus pc games, so those numbers are statistically moot. What has happened, is that production costs have gone up and simple economics require companies to sell more units per release in order to pave the road to future releases. Economies of scale is not a new idea. But, and this is a huge but, this means nothing in the long run because console fatigue always sets in. History has proven this time and time again. Console tech is always frozen in time for 3-6 years before it can be renewed (the PS2 is the acception, since it is the World of Warcraft of game consoles...simply won't die lol). So what ALWAYS happens is that computer tech rapidly outpaces consoles and thus we have new releases like Batman which on the computer graphically destroy the consoles.

So after this wordy post, here are my points :

1. At some point in the future, all game releases are going to be digital release in the style of steam, since its much easier to track usuage and licensing, and yes that will include consoles. Piracy will still occur, but the days of Game Copy World easy mode piracy will be over, especially considering online activity will require a certified account. Blizzard is going to be using Battlenet to this effect. They will sell their own games as well as provide an online drm system.

2. PC gaming will never die...its distribution system will simply change. DRM won't be a problem once we get rid self-sustained media. Remember, we don't buy games, we license them, so this idea that we somehow have a right to play these games forever is moot. True, we got away with it for 15 years, but laws are laws and it was wrong then, and its wrong now. Games are supported till they aren't. Its all about opportunity costs.

3. Gamestop sucks. They are anti-PC since they can't resell used games and screw the developers out of their money. Even for console players, gamestop represents a evil force. Developers/producers get zero money from the sale of used games. You want to get rid of a stain on the gaming market, we need to boycott these guys. Babbages rocked, gamestop sucks, and EB somehow got assimilated by gamestop on the way. Gamestop are Borg.
 

Red Irish

Guest
Mar 6, 2009
1,605
0
0
Originally posted by: MStele


1. At some point in the future, all game releases are going to be digital release in the style of steam, since its much easier to track usuage and licensing, and yes that will include consoles. Piracy will still occur, but the days of Game Copy World easy mode piracy will be over, especially considering online activity will require a certified account. Blizzard is going to be using Battlenet to this effect. They will sell their own games as well as provide an online drm system.

You are undoubtedly right.


2. PC gaming will never die...its distribution system will simply change. DRM won't be a problem once we get rid self-sustained media. Remember, we don't buy games, we license them, so this idea that we somehow have a right to play these games forever is moot. True, we got away with it for 15 years, but laws are laws and it was wrong then, and its wrong now. Games are supported till they aren't. Its all about opportunity costs.

Was this always the case? Did we always purchase a licence rather than a copy? Why shouldn't I be able to play a game for as long as I want? Games are released as buggy ports at high prices and frequently remain unfixed, that's not about opportunity costs, its about selling what you advertised. Laws are laws, but we make them and change them, not the developers.


3. Gamestop sucks. They are anti-PC since they can't resell used games and screw the developers out of their money. Even for console players, gamestop represents a evil force. Developers/producers get zero money from the sale of used games. You want to get rid of a stain on the gaming market, we need to boycott these guys. Babbages rocked, gamestop sucks, and EB somehow got assimilated by gamestop on the way. Gamestop are Borg.

In the absence of a second-hand market, prices will remain higher for longer. To be honest I couldn't care less if the developer/producer sees any money from the second sale, I like to be able to buy games at lower prices. Destroying the second-hand market is, was and will remain the true purpose behind DRM. If, as you say, the developers were able to survive without this newfound source of revenue for 15 years, haven't they simply become greedy? If they have become greedy, they have also proved willing to alienate many previously loyal customers and caused grief by implementing DRM that occasioned a number of rather nasty side-effects on people's systems. Moreover, you would hardly imagine that the world is currently gripped by an economic crisis given the price of new releases.

My replies in bold. Nice first post.