DrCool's System Builders Guide - NOV 04

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: Naustica
Blind leading the blind.

Yeah, but it's fun watching the chaos from the distance, isn't it?

PS. DAPUNISHER, I didn't know that about the NF2's DC memory setup. I thought that pretty-much the only way that you could run DC with all three slots filled, was using two single-sided 256MB DIMMs, and one double-sided 512MB DIMM, such that the memory-controller on the chipset basically saw two "ranks" (I hate that term - I blame Intel for it) worth of memory on each channel, so that it came out balanced in the end. I can't really see any technical reasoning how it would be possible otherwise, unless the NF2's memory-controller is somehow far, far more flexible than most. (Although Intel's i865 and i875's memory-controller is likewise quite flexible, it is strict in terms of matched pairs, I'm pretty sure.)

Where's MechBgon when you need him, for a third opinion on this subject.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: Tostada
I'm not suggesting that the BIOS may be lying about running dual-channel with 3 sticks, but I would be hesitant to tell somebody it's a good idea when I really don't have any personal experience with upgrading an IGP board to some weird configuration like 256MB + 256MB + 512MB. The concept of dual-channel with non-paired memory really doesn't make sense. Since it allows this, perhaps it's actually running two banks dual-channel and then the 3rd bank is single-channel. As long as the IGP isn't using shared memory from the 3rd bank, there shouldn't be any of the issues people report with single-channel IGP.

Hmm, that makes sense too.. memory addresses falling within the first X range of addresses, could be filled by accesses to dual-channel memory, and then any additional installed RAM would fill out an additional address range, which would be accessed in single-channel mode, that actually makes a certain amount of sense now. I'd like to test it out to make sure myself though before strongly recommending to others that it's feasible to implement that way.

(Ah! I just had an idea - can someone possibly run MemTest86+ on a rig configured thusly, and get some actual memory-bandwidth benchmarks? That would tell us for certain what is going on. Preferably not using the IGP, because that could skew the results.)

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: Tostada
Can't produce any hard facts? Then what, I'm only producing soft facts?

LOL. Please forgive me, but the first thing that popped into my mind, after reading your nick, and those sentences, together, was "Mmmm, I could go for some Taco Bell right now."

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: DrCool
This illustrates a good point, when dealing with technology.. on paper and in theory don't always reflect re-world or synthenic performance.

Seems to be the exact reason, both INTEL and AMD have done away with GHz competition and instead use unique model ratings that are supposed to represent the processors 'overall performance' instead of Hz rating alone.

I dunno, I heard that they were switching to colors instead. As we all know here, "green" is much faster than "blue", at least for gaming tasks.

Maybe next year, when they run out of marketing ideas, they'll switch to geometric shapes. I vote for "triangle" myself, I hear those are the most stable, even though "square" claims to have a 33% higher vertices rating.

But see, you're just a n00b, and you wouldn't have any clue about these sorts of advanced things that we talk about here on this board, would you? I mean, you're probably think that "circle" is the fastest, because it powers most wheels, but it has *zero* vertices. Hmm. (Or is that infinite vertices? Am I wrong here?)

 

[DAPUNISHER]

What is it with busting my chops lately Larry? This will make twice this month you didn't believe something I posted you doubting Thomas biotch! Here is a quote from mechBgon on the topic

The nForce2 chipset has two memory controllers, but from what I've read on the subject, they can both access all of the memory modules via a crossbar (shades of a GeForce-class GPU? go figure ). For a comparison, the best analogy I'm coming up with is your OS's page file... Intel's solution is something like having your pagefile on a two-drive RAID0, while nForce2's solution is like having two pagefiles on two independent hard drives. You'll notice that nVidia calls their nForce2 setup "Dual DDR," not "Dual-Channel DDR." A slight distinction.

As a result of the crossbar setup, nForce2 doesn't lose dual-channel mode when using three memory modules. Going back to what the OP was driving at, the additional bandwidth of DCDDR helps Pentium4 systems perform well, but is not really a huge boost to an AthlonXP in most situations... for AthlonXP, the glass is already 95% full with just one DDR channel, if the CPU is the only thing needing the bandwidth.

I also PM'd him to stop in and elucidate futher if he would

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
What is it with busting my chops lately Larry? This will make twice this month you didn't believe something I posted you doubting Thomas biotch!

Hey, no offense. I'm just a skeptic by nature, and a damn cynical one at that. Btw, I saw your other post explaining how it works with 3 DIMM slots filled with DC, makes sense. I'm glad that NV's engineers are still a tiny step ahead of me.

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
Here is a quote from mechBgon on the topic:

The nForce2 chipset has two memory controllers, but from what I've read on the subject, they can both access all of the memory modules via a crossbar (shades of a GeForce-class GPU? go figure ). For a comparison, the best analogy I'm coming up with is your OS's page file... Intel's solution is something like having your pagefile on a two-drive RAID0, while nForce2's solution is like having two pagefiles on two independent hard drives. You'll notice that nVidia calls their nForce2 setup "Dual DDR," not "Dual-Channel DDR." A slight distinction.

I knew about the existance of the x-bar, although I wasn't sure if that was on the host-address side or the memory-controller side of things. I also didn't notice the rather minute distinction in the names, because I've always just heard it referred to as "dual-channel" DDR, when referring to either the NF1/2 or the i856/875 (and newer). (Strictly speaking of course, it is in fact dual-channel with the NF2, and they should have called it "Triple DDR", really, if there are three slots, but who's counting, among friends?)

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
As a result of the crossbar setup, nForce2 doesn't lose dual-channel mode when using three memory modules. Going back to what the OP was driving at, the additional bandwidth of DCDDR helps Pentium4 systems perform well, but is not really a huge boost to an AthlonXP in most situations... for AthlonXP, the glass is already 95% full with just one DDR channel, if the CPU is the only thing needing the bandwidth. I also PM'd him to stop in and elucidate futher if he would

You can turn off the bat-signal now, additional emergency technical assistance is no longer needed.

I don't think that the x-bar is what allows mixed single/dual-channel (although I could be wrong), I thought that the x-bar was used much like their graphics cards allowed it to - it could service two identical 64-bit wide memory requests at the same time. (Similar to two independent pagefiles, rather than a single, RAID-striped pagefile, yes.) In that manner, the CPU could be performing one memory access, and the IGP another, without lagging either one of them.

The alternative would be of course forced 128-bit memory accesses, which would double the effective bandwidth, but wouldn't help increase the number of I/Os per clock at all. I assume that Intel's i865/875 solution is more akin to that model.

 

[Tostada]

Originally posted by: Thermalrock
well the store i went to had 512 mb for all midrange pcs 3 years ago. i didnt say i bought lowend. i bought midrange and 256mb was what cheap comps came with in the midrange it was rare. im not lying about that. i know 10+ ppl who bought a comp 2-3.5 years ago and they all got 512 xept a girl who got a 256mb one but upgraded to 512 cuz it didnt run that smooth.

theres no pc with 128mb and there hasnt been in a long time period.

Well, it's sad, but a lot of PC's have decent CPU's and only 256MB RAM, mostly because people are still stupid enough to think MHz is the most important thing. It was only very recently that places like Dell/Gateway/Compaq moved up to 256MB in their lowest end machines.

 

[mechBgon]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
What is it with busting my chops lately Larry? This will make twice this month you didn't believe something I posted you doubting Thomas biotch! Here is a quote from mechBgon on the topic

The nForce2 chipset has two memory controllers, but from what I've read on the subject, they can both access all of the memory modules via a crossbar (shades of a GeForce-class GPU? go figure ). For a comparison, the best analogy I'm coming up with is your OS's page file... Intel's solution is something like having your pagefile on a two-drive RAID0, while nForce2's solution is like having two pagefiles on two independent hard drives. You'll notice that nVidia calls their nForce2 setup "Dual DDR," not "Dual-Channel DDR." A slight distinction.

As a result of the crossbar setup, nForce2 doesn't lose dual-channel mode when using three memory modules. Going back to what the OP was driving at, the additional bandwidth of DCDDR helps Pentium4 systems perform well, but is not really a huge boost to an AthlonXP in most situations... for AthlonXP, the glass is already 95% full with just one DDR channel, if the CPU is the only thing needing the bandwidth.

I also PM'd him to stop in and elucidate futher if he would

So there's pizza in here somewhere, they said...

:Q ~ it's a trap!


Yeah, nF2 will run dual-channel no matter which way. pspada grabbed one 512 and two 256's and ran UT2003 Demo botmatch benchies with the three modules in every arrangement and found that it simply doesn't matter which way they're arranged, the Botmatch results comes out essentially identical. If anything, the "out-of-balance" arrangement actually was a couple frames faster, as I recall. Myself, I've run three modules on three different nF2 boards (A7N8X Deluxe, Shuttle AN35N Ultra and EPoX 8RDA+) and they all retain dual-channel mode with three double-sided 512's in them.

So I think the analogy about pagefiles is the best fit I've been able to come up with for conceptualizing how nForce2 handles the dual-channel thing. The bigger picture, I think, is that it really doesn't matter enough to worry about; having the extra 512MB of RAM was what I liked best, not the dual-channel nature, because it allowed Windows to cache our entire Office2000Pro Discs 1 & 2 AIP in RAM for serving to the LAN without having to run the antivirus-scanning gauntlet (since the ~950MB of data no longer had to be pulled from disk after the first time). You haven't seen slow until you've seen McAfee VirusScan Enterprise chew its way through a huge .CAB file and alllllllllllll the contents therin...

Hope that helps

 

[DAPUNISHER]

"The bat-signal" :laugh: Got a chuckle from that. The Cheetah-signal actually. I'm no EE or coder and your interest in the particulars of the tech surpass my feeble jedi powers so I can't engage you in an in-depth discussion on the topic

Thanks mechBgon, you're still da man!

 

[imported_Hinton]

I found this thread via Google, since I assumed a unique personality like "Dr""cool" must have shared his "wisdom" with other forums as well, and I wasn't disappointed

He was at Ars too, didn't last as long unfortunatly.

http://episteme.arstechnica.co...774&m=373006527631

It's amazing his "detalied system builders guide" isn't detailed, or even a guide. Just a seemingly random assortment of hardware, where he obviously first selects the piece of hardware he wants, then write a criteria to match the hardware. Leads to some interesting nuggets like a criteria for memory with a lifetime warrenty, because you see, the memory he had selected happened to have lifetime warranty, so that's obviously a criteria


Sigh, why can't there be more people like "dr""cool", really makes my day.

 

[erikistired]

Originally posted by: ZobarStyl
I think we should've all let this thread die when we saw that is was started by a 20 year old kid with such a preposterous self-inflating name...I mean, not only is he a doctor, but he's cool! He must rock!

Seriously, it's not like you made a bad guide, it's just mediocre at best. You aren't ripping people off, but anyone who built a 2500 machine like that would expect a lot more performance than that. Go back to the drawing board, and here's a quick hint, go check out Anand's previous guides. That might give you an idea of what's going wrong.

according to his website he does pc tech support at a local college, not exactly a doctor. but we can all pretend eh?

 

[erikistired]

quoted from the ars thread:

the smaller memory modules have the faster / tighter timmings (ie, 256MB module vs 512MB module), less physical memory modules on the pcb, and less overhead. Your theory is incorrect, which is exactly why the gaming systems have a lower AMOUNT of memory, but FASTER / TIGHTER timmings.. no current computer game benefits from more then 512MB memory.. as it's primarily onboard video memory dependant (textures and what not).

seeing someone say this makes me want to laugh so hard my eyeballs explode and i sneeze my brains out through my nostrils. wow.

 

[erikistired]

budget gamer. i changed the MUST HAVES to build a better system rather than stick to his obviously made up after the fact list.

antec slk1650 w 350w - 55 - it's antec, why not? solid psu as well.
(inwin s508)

amd athlon xp 3000+ (400fsb) oem - 132 - should beat a sempron huh? give a little more headroom in the future since it's supposed to last awhile.
(sempron 2200+)

cooler master xdream 2 80mm hsf - 11.99 - it's budget, what else do you want?
(taisol cgk760092)

chaintech 7njl6 - 52.50 - budget board that meets his requirements.
(msi k7n2 delta2-lsr)

kingmax 512mb (x2) ddr 3200 - 138 - regardless of what drcool thinks, people who actually play games prefer 1gb of memory over 512mb.
(crucial 2x256)

gainward geforce 6800 - 275 - jewel of my system, took a lesser monitor to get this in, i think gamers will appreciate that.
(xfx gf5700 le)

sony floppy - 6.50 - whatever, it's a floppy. learn to slipstream your sata drivers and this isn't needed.
(sony)

hitachi HDS722580VLSA80 80gb sata - 63 - hard drive, once again, budget system.
(seagate sata 120gb)

liteon 16x dvd (sohd-167t) - 25.50 - um, it's a dvd.
(16x liteon)

windows xp home oem - 89 - yay windows.
(xp home)

mag innovision 772pfb - 109 - smaller monitor, still flat. i was willing to sacrifice this for the video card, but that's just me.
(samsung 19" syncmaster)

liteon sk-1788u keyboard - 5.00 - a budget keyboard for sure. it's a keyboard, it's a budget system, it's five bucks.
(keytronic lifetime designer)

logitech mx510 mouse - 33.00 - this is another thing i wasn't willing to take a dive on. a solid mouse is 100% necessary for gaming, the ms wireless whatever doesn't cut it.
(ms wireless optical w/ tilt)

i took like 20 minutes to put this together, before shipping on newegg the total is 995.49. i dunno, i think i'd rather have this than what he spec'd, but i'm not the doctor. i'm sure there are places i could improve and get better prices, but i'm not putting my life into it because i know there are already good solid buying guides.

 

[Thermalrock]

Originally posted by: fisher
quoted from the ars thread:

the smaller memory modules have the faster / tighter timmings (ie, 256MB module vs 512MB module), less physical memory modules on the pcb, and less overhead. Your theory is incorrect, which is exactly why the gaming systems have a lower AMOUNT of memory, but FASTER / TIGHTER timmings.. no current computer game benefits from more then 512MB memory.. as it's primarily onboard video memory dependant (textures and what not).

seeing someone say this makes me want to laugh so hard my eyeballs explode and i sneeze my brains out through my nostrils. wow.

can someone explain to me tho why the 1gb chips have high timings tho? id go for 2x 512mb right now with 2-2-2 but offered they 2x 1024mb 2-2-2 which they dont id go for those.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: Hinton
I found this thread via Google, since I assumed a unique personality like "Dr""cool" must have shared his "wisdom" with other forums as well, and I wasn't disappointed

He was at Ars too, didn't last as long unfortunatly.

http://episteme.arstechnica.co...774&m=373006527631

It's amazing his "detalied system builders guide" isn't detailed, or even a guide. Just a seemingly random assortment of hardware, where he obviously first selects the piece of hardware he wants, then write a criteria to match the hardware. Leads to some interesting nuggets like a criteria for memory with a lifetime warrenty, because you see, the memory he had selected happened to have lifetime warranty, so that's obviously a criteria


Sigh, why can't there be more people like "dr""cool", really makes my day.

Thanks for the link :beer: Good mod too, IceStorm explained his reasoning and locked it up in good order

 

[Subhuman25]

OMG,this thread is still alive!@ :Q

And lokky looky,he has even ventured to other techie sites trying exploit his total nonsense.Nice to see they shut him down rather quick over on Ars Tech.
Sad thing is the schmuck just doesn't get it.

 

[tranceport]

I want my 5 minutes back...

 

[DAPUNISHER]

.

 

[DGath]

Fisher.... Can an Antec 350 run a 6800? I know they require at least a 480, but then again... that's them finding the crappiest PSUs out there and finding the min. that can support it. I would say at least an Antec 380, but I could be wrong. That's why I'm asking.

Another DrCool flamefest

And another

I personally liked #2, and how he jumped all over them for disagreeing.

Dr, it's apparent what you are trying to do. You spend a lot of time looking at sites that review hardware and the like, and try to give out the same suggestions. We all do that, that's why we come here, to discuss our opinions. The reason why people "thread crap" as you so love to throw around, is because you don't hand out opinions that we can discuss, you hand out "FACTS" that you throw a fit if someone disagrees with. Lay back, chill out a bit, take some suggestions, show some humility, have a good time.

 

[Boonesmi]

Originally posted by: DGath
Fisher.... Can an Antec 350 run a 6800? I know they require at least a 480, but then again... that's them finding the crappiest PSUs out there and finding the min. that can support it. I would say at least an Antec 380, but I could be wrong. That's why I'm asking.

Another DrCool flamefest

And another

I personally liked #2, and how he jumped all over them for disagreeing.

Dr, it's apparent what you are trying to do. You spend a lot of time looking at sites that review hardware and the like, and try to give out the same suggestions. We all do that, that's why we come here, to discuss our opinions. The reason why people "thread crap" as you so love to throw around, is because you don't hand out opinions that we can discuss, you hand out "FACTS" that you throw a fit if someone disagrees with. Lay back, chill out a bit, take some suggestions, show some humility, have a good time.

yeah that powersupply will run it with no problem... the "480w" req that is often mentioned is based on most people not knowing if they have some crappy generic powersupply or not

 

[DrCool]

a few people seem to have taken it apon themselves to decide that their 'opinions' are the 'opinions' of the majority. (fisher, DGath, subhuman, Hinton, Tostada, Gothgar, Boonesmi)

I hate to break it to you, but this is a community of many hundreds maybe even thousands, and your limited views, do not represent the majority.

There is nothing wrong with a heated debate as long as it stays on topic, and isn't poluted by people who want to replace personal attacks for logical arguments.

I take pride in my commitment to the community as a whole, and will stand by my statements, despite any naysayers. Unlike some, I'm a person of integrity.

I don't need to curse or make personal attacks to make a point, i'll let thier own words and actions speak for themselves.

 

[imported_Hinton]

Originally posted by: DrCool
i'll let thier own words and actions speak for themselves.

Just like your words and actions speak for you, in volume.

Frankly I felt sorry for you when I realised you were 20, I had you figured out for about 14. I guess this isn't something you'll outgrow.

 

[Boonesmi]

Originally posted by: DrCool
a few people seem to have taken it apon themselves to decide that their 'opinions' are the 'opinions' of the majority. (fisher, DGath, subhuman, Hinton, Tostada, Gothgar, Boonesmi)

I hate to break it to you, but this is a community of many hundreds maybe even thousands, and your limited views, do not represent the majority.

There is nothing wrong with a heated debate as long as it stays on topic, and isn't poluted by people who want to replace personal attacks for logical arguments.

I take pride in my commitment to the community as a whole, and will stand by my statements, despite any naysayers. Unlike some, I'm a person of integrity.

I don't need to curse or make personal attacks to make a point, i'll let thier own words and actions speak for themselves.

wow my name made the list

but seriously... if your guide wasnt badly flawed, then why arent any of the "hundreds maybe even thousands" sticking up for you?

where are the posts that say something like "Hey thats a great guide!!! im going to point all my friends who are thinking of building a pc to your site for some great info!!" ??


like i said before... you just need to take the critizism and use it constructivly to improve your guide, instead of just getting defencive and acting like a child.

 

[erikistired]

Originally posted by: DrCool
a few people seem to have taken it apon themselves to decide that their 'opinions' are the 'opinions' of the majority. (fisher, DGath, subhuman, Hinton, Tostada, Gothgar, Boonesmi)

I hate to break it to you, but this is a community of many hundreds maybe even thousands, and your limited views, do not represent the majority.

There is nothing wrong with a heated debate as long as it stays on topic, and isn't poluted by people who want to replace personal attacks for logical arguments.

I take pride in my commitment to the community as a whole, and will stand by my statements, despite any naysayers. Unlike some, I'm a person of integrity.

I don't need to curse or make personal attacks to make a point, i'll let thier own words and actions speak for themselves.

actually my opinions are those shared by the majority considering i learned quite a bit from this place. when you were still pooping in your diapers i was disecting computers and learning how to put them back together. so keep your bad opinions, you are welcome to them. however quit trying to pass them off as real knowledge, people don't come here to be misled, they come here to be informed.

 

[batmanuel]

Just to add fuel to the fire, why buy the MS mouse and Keytronics keyboard for a combined cost of $69 when you can go to Newegg and pick up the much superior Logitech MX Duo for the same price? It also has a five year warranty, which is pretty much a lifetime as far as PC components go.