Dr. Pabst says the P4 is finally faster?

[majewski9]

Fkloster your always full of P4 praise. I think u are finally going to eat your words this time.

Hey, Ok the Athlon 1.4ghz is comparable to the pentium 4 2ghz. Lets look at Anand's benchmarks! I dont see P4 blowing away of the Athlon nor do I see it beating it out in most benchmarks.

I think it is sad that we are comparing a 600mhz handicap in processors. The P4 should be out right killing the Athlon, but we all know it doesnt at all.

Im tired of these posts. How many do u posts like this a week Fkloster ? I mean we all know that u paid too much for your P4! You dont have to constantly try to prove that you didn't get ripped off. which u did!

Hey the Palomino 1.5ghz will be out very soon. Probaly 2 weeks max! Desktop Morgan is out so Palomino should be waiting. They might wait for Xp to come out. Which I might add XP was written on Athlons.

 

[majewski9]

I think the Palomino 1.5 will be a break away and P4 will need 700 to 800 mhz to equal the same ammount performance.

 

[usual_suspect]

majewski9 I didn't know that about windows XP, so MS used Athlon based systems exclusively to write XP? Do you have any links to a news story on this...

 

[fkloster]

<< Lets look at Anand's benchmarks! I dont see P4 blowing away of the Athlon nor do I see it beating it out in most benchmarks. >>

Who said anything about anything BLOWIN' AWAY anything else?

<< I think it is sad that we are comparing a 600mhz handicap in processors >>

I'm sad to majewski, I wish AMD could released a higher clock to compare, but they need a longer pipeline to do it

<< I mean we all know that u paid too much for your P4! You dont have to constantly try to prove that you didn't get ripped off. which u did! >>

I paid too much for my P4? How much is to much? How did I get ripped off?

 

[Insane3D]

If fkloster bought a P4 with his money that's his choice and who cares what he paid for it. I don't understand why people get so caught up in what other people choose to buy....it's their money and their system, so they should get whatever they want.

 

[majewski9]

lets see Fkloster until recently the P4 was no where near the pricing of Athlon. So yeah u paid to much since Athlon 1.4 is still one of the top performing solutions.

Lengthing the pipeline is not the best way of getting more speed. Ever heard of smaller die size. A longer pipeline isn't good! A p4 has a 20 instruction stage pipeline. It actually slows P4's processing ability since an insrtuction in stage 20 might need results from an insrtruction in stage 1. <----Lifted from tom!

I was merely mentioning that P4 didnt dominate when saying blowing away. Hey u want more clock speed from AMD the hammer debuts january 02 @ 2.2 and some 2.4 ghz. Barton also debuts near those speeds.

about XP link maybe I went to far saying written on Athlons, but Microsoft sure is praising and looking to establish a patnership with AMD.
Here some good news

AMD + WinXP

 

[fkloster]

<< Ever heard of smaller die size. A longer pipeline isn't good! A p4 has a 20 instruction stage pipeline. It actually slows P4's processing ability since an insrtuction in stage 20 might need results from an insrtruction in stage >>



Improved branch prediction and increased mhz coupled with hardware prefetch cures the insecurities you speak of. BTW, get used to longer pipelines, your AMD cpu's will be going to longer pipelines sooner than you think. Both companies should have used the technique long ago...

<< I was merely mentioning that P4 didnt dominate >>



Who said anything about dominating?

 

[Modus]

Surprisingly, even a 2.0 GHz P4 cannot convincingly beat 1.4 GHz Athlon-C. In fact, the opposite is true: the Athlon is faster in the majority of real-world applications.

For performance data, AnandTech's review of the P4/2.0 is our only appropriate guide at this time; it is the only review that used the fastest chipsets for each processor -- the Intel 850 and SiS 735. Other reviews have ignored the faster SiS chipset in favor of the slower, more expensive AMD 760 chipset, and some reviews (like at Tom's Hardware) have actually used a reference P4 motherboard that will never be found in the systems of actual users. Anand's review also focused on Windows 2000, which is by far the operating system of choice for those interested in these CPUs. So clearly, Anand's performance data is the most valid. What does it show?

That the Athlon-C 1.4 GHz beats the P4/2.0 GHz in six applications, looses in four, and ties it in one (Cinema 4D Raytracing):

Athlon-C 1.4 GHz takes
-----------------------------
Business Winstone 2001
Sysmark 2001 - Office Productivity
OfficeBench 2001 v2.0
3D Studio Max R4.02
FlaskMPEG
AquaMark

Pentium4 2.0 GHz takes
------------------------------
Content Creation Winstone 2001
Sysmark 2001 - Internet Content Creation
Quake III Arena
Dronez

Even more remarkable is the extent to which the Palomino Athlon MP 1.2 GHz is able to keep up with and even surpass the P4/2.0 GHz in certain applications, notably FlaskMPEG, AquaMark, and OfficeBench.

None of this, of course, takes into account that other most important product feature: price. Here, the P4 is still not even competitive. There are no PriceWatch street figures for 2.0 GHz P4's at the moment, but if we use the current P4/1.8 price ($260), we get this absurd comparison:

Athlon-C 1.4 GHz $106
256M PC2100 DDR SDRAM $31
ECS K7S5A (SiS 735) $59
------------------------------------------
Total $196

Pentium4 2.0 GHz $260
2 x 128M PC800 RDRAM $68
ECS P4ITA $112
-------------------------------------------
Total $440

The Athlon system is not only faster, but more than twice as cheap! And most intelligent PC users have realized by now that Intel and AMD platforms are equally reliable. Given these facts, one would think Intel would be doomed with their current Pentium4. But give Intel's marketing arm credit: they have used the clock speed difference to keep the P4 on top in the eyes of the ignorant consumer. In essence, Intel's marktting strategy relies on our stupidity, while AMD's (such as it is) relies on our intelligence.

Modus

 

[fkloster]

<< ...AnandTech's review of the P4/2.0 is our only appropriate guide at this time; it is the only review that used the fastest chipsets for each processor -- the Intel 850 and SiS 735. >>



I concur that these are the fastest chipsets for each appropriate part, yet I am troubled with Annands choice of manufacturer for the i850. Asus P4T performs moderatly better than any other i850 offering... & BTW I'm very troubled with the inconsistancies between Annands & the Dr's results...


<< Given these facts, one would think Intel would be doomed with their current Pentium4 >>



hehe, I'll meet you @ the finish line Modus and buy you a beer! Intel has a nifty lil' surprise for consumers in September that will not help AMD's plight...

 

[RGN]

<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The P4 at current prices is a very good choice. Coupled with an Intel chipset it will provide a stable computing solution. There are no proven chipsets for and AMD solution. There is Via, their track record is marginal at best. SiS hardly has produced anything but cheapo integrated low performing boards for years. AMD 760, well, maybe its good, but its the lowest performer out of everything -with waning support.

Then there is Intel. Even their problematic chipsets (815?) are more stable than anything Via has come up with.


You people that have discovered win2k on the athlon platformhave raved about uptimes. I've seen intel boxes outlast AMD boxes almost 2-1 while running the same apps.

When you start talking 1+GHz there is hardly any MHz 'race' anymore. For productivity, they are fast enough. For games and engineering apps is where the speed helps. With pricing so low that it isessentially the same,the race will be won by stability, not MHz. That is why you don't see AMD on every corporate desktop. The comparable Intel box is just as fast and just as cheap. The difference is stability. Name brand computer manufactures will not put their name on a product that will not perform. Although, somehow Ford has managed to stay profitable for all these years... </SPAN>
</SPAN>

 

[CHHASmatroxuser]

Hmm, P4 beats Athlon on Tom's ...
Big Intel ad on Tom's front page ...

Hmm ...

 

[fkloster]

Thats what I'm talkin' about. Maybe Intel bought 'em

 

[Insane3D]

Oh man...bringing up the stability issue again. That is just flat out wrong. Athlon systems...even on Via chipsets can be extremely stable. Check out Anand's reviews of some of the latest motherboards and you can see that they pass the torture tests as well or better than comparable Intel chipsets. You really should do some research before making statements like that. You obviously don't use any Athlon setups, so how can you tell for sure? The AMD761 is not the slowest out there...the KT266 is. The Sis735 is the fastest and you haven't even used it, but yet you feel free to make statements on the stability of it...interesting. I wonder why Anandtech uses a dualie Athlon MP setup for their server...must not be stable. If you feel happy with your ignorance...that's cool....but don't spread your FUD.

RGN - I just noticed your system is Athlon based. If it is so unstable, why haven't you switched to an Intel rig?

 

[RGN]

Insane3D:
No, its not wrong.
Do you remember the last time everyone had to have a specificboard? It was the MSI Pro2A. The holy grail of O/C'ng mobo's. It took about 3-4months before hoards of people were running out of the woodwork talking about the problems. Problems that have never been nailed down. People like yourself were the first to say that the problems were not with the board, but the people. I say f-off to all thatowners/nonownersofthis boardthat disputed the issues.

I've built a couple of DDR t-bird systems since (VIA), while they are VERY fast, they hardly capture the rocksolidness that an Intel system commands.

The Sis chipset maybe the fastest, but it has not been around long enough to prove a damn thing.

So, you buy your Athlon and continue rebooting your machine daily, and I'll buy the Intel setup and not reboot for a month at a time.

 

[RGN]

I did, I haven't updated the system rig yet. It's and 815 with a 933.

 

[RGN]

I gotta turn off this fancy editor, it screws up the spaces all the time...

 

[NFS4]

<< Insane3D:
No, its not wrong.
Do you remember the last time everyone had to have a specificboard? It was the MSI Pro2A. The holy grail of O/C'ng mobo's. It took about 3-4months before hoards of people were running out of the woodwork talking about the problems. Problems that have never been nailed down. People like yourself were the first to say that the problems were not with the board, but the people. I say f-off to all thatowners/nonownersofthis boardthat disputed the issues.

I've built a couple of DDR t-bird systems since (VIA), while they are VERY fast, they hardly capture the rocksolidness that an Intel system commands.

The Sis chipset maybe the fastest, but it has not been around long enough to prove a damn thing.

So, you buy your Athlon and continue rebooting your machine daily, and I'll buy the Intel setup and not reboot for a month at a time. >>


Oh give me a break! My VIA KT133A bases Windows XP system stays up for as long as it wants to, and I only reboot to install apps.

As for your statement about the SiS board, that is just about as ARROGANT as you can get. WHAT does it have to prove??? The board has passed all torture tests, and is fast as hell. Do you just expect it to start popping capacitors at 30,000 miles or something? Give me a break. It's fast, it's stable, it's cheap....GET OVER IT.

 

[Insane3D]

RGN - If you feel that way then that's your problem...that Pro-2A sucks wind. I have four DDR/Tbird setups here and they all have Win2K with Seti@Home running 24/7 and they have never been rebooted except when I was first installing them and installing drivers and such. My Iwill KK266-R with a 1.2ghz Tbird running @ 1.4ghz with a 165mhz FSB had an uptime of almost 7 months! I just brought it down because I was upgrading and using the CPU in another board. I don't reboot my machines, so I can't take your advice sorry. All the Athlon systems I have built for people have been rock solid with Win2K, and I get people months down the line commenting on how they have had no problems. The only ones I had trouble with were built on Abit boards, so I don't use them anymore. If everyone that had an Athlon system was constantly rebooting they wouldn't be very popular now..would they? But whatever, I guess those IBM Intel P3 PC's at work that I keep getting called in to fix because they have locked up must be software related...couldn't be the Intel CPU or motherboard. We have two WinNT IBM P3 computers at work that constantly are BSOD'ed when I come in at night. Must be an Athlon in there... I have found that ignorance like yours is perpetual, and can't be changed even if the facts show otherwise, so I won't bother. Have a nice day...

 

[grant2]

It's true. Like Intel said, in the end a higher clock speed will be able to beat the optimizations it breaks. It's the same reason a P4 beats a Coppermine PIII 500. Despite the fact that the 500 is more optimized, the P4 threw out all those optimizations to achieve a higher clock speed & made new ways to optimize so as to gain more efficiency in the future so that you can realize a "true" relative 2Ghz performance.

what exactly are these optimizations you speak of?

 

[RGN]

NFS4: This is interesting, your preferance is to like the board. Mine is to not trust it. I'm ARROGANT and your not. Holy sh!t. That logic astounds me.


More later the cable guy is here to switch my modem.

 

[grant2]

You guys have to settle down and stop bagging on fkloster, all he did was comment on Dr. Tom's apparent attitude change.

If someone is happy buying themselves a p4, why do so many people think its their holy mission to criticize them?

 

[NFS4]

<< NFS4: This is interesting, your preferance is to like the board. Mine is to not trust it. I'm ARROGANT and your not. Holy sh!t. That logic astounds me.


More later the cable guy is here to switch my modem. >>


Not to trust it why?? The board is as good as you can get and you don't TRUST it?? The board has shown that it has what it takes to compete. What else does it have to prove? You say that what it has ALREADY done doesn't mean sh!t. Now that is just wrong.

That's like saying that the new '02 Nissan Altima ain't sh!t even though it is bigger, faster, and cheaper than both the Accord and Camry AND comes with a V6/Manual drivetrain if you so desire.

 

[Insane3D]

grant2:

I agree and said so above.

 

[Insane3D]

"That's like saying that the new '02 Nissan Altima ain't sh!t even though it is bigger, faster, and cheaper than both the Accord and Camry AND comes with a V6/Manual drivetrain if you so desire. "

Yeah...but is it stable or does it roll over a lot?

 

[Sigurd]

AMD systems are hard to get stable, but once they are they can be as rock stable as any other machine. They just take a little tweaking, flashing, driver updating, etc. Any one of us here is "hardcore" enough to work for it. I agree that AMD is currently relegated to the power user's desktop, but I see no reason why an OEM (especially if you consider that they mass market nearly identical systems--it should be fairly easy to get one working stable and then just emulate the design) can't do the same. The HP I have at work sucks a fat one though (1.33 t-bird).

Ironically, my FIC SD-11 (one of the ORIGINAL 3 athlon classic motherboards) is ROCK stable, even with my 500 o/c'ed to 700 thanks to a www.k7oc.com GFD. It's far more stable than all of the Asus PC133 T-bird systems my friends built



<< Insane3D:
No, its not wrong.
Do you remember the last time everyone had to have a specificboard? It was the MSI Pro2A. The holy grail of O/C'ng mobo's. It took about 3-4months before hoards of people were running out of the woodwork talking about the problems. Problems that have never been nailed down. People like yourself were the first to say that the problems were not with the board, but the people. I say f-off to all thatowners/nonownersofthis boardthat disputed the issues.

I've built a couple of DDR t-bird systems since (VIA), while they are VERY fast, they hardly capture the rocksolidness that an Intel system commands.

The Sis chipset maybe the fastest, but it has not been around long enough to prove a damn thing.

So, you buy your Athlon and continue rebooting your machine daily, and I'll buy the Intel setup and not reboot for a month at a time. >>