Downward blowing fans & heatsinks

BadRobot

Senior member
May 25, 2007
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I have read several articles about how it logically makes sense that downward blowing fans would cool better over all on a heatsink because it would provide better overall air flow to the mother board and the components.

Why would blowing the heat off the heat sink BACK at the processor and the Mobo and other components be a good thing?

Now if there is not much heat coming off of the heatsink then i could see it helping...but if there isn't that much heat coming off the heatsink why do you need a fancy fan...

it doesn't pass my logic test...but i could be misunderstanding the mechanics of it...

EDIT: Clarification - Not that I don't think downward fans help, just was saying it would make sense that fans that blow parallel to the mobo would help more if there is a decent amount of heat coming off the heatsink.
 

alaricljs

Golden Member
May 11, 2005
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The issue is that there is little to no airflow against the mobo and its components. The air near the board and the NB/SB and RAM becomes heat saturated. Any airflow is better than no airflow in this situation.
 

BadRobot

Senior member
May 25, 2007
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New to cooling issues so i apologize for nub'ish posts...

But also wouldn't it make more sense to have a fan mounted on the side of the case blowing at the components/mobo and having a side blowing fan for the heatsink?
 

BadRobot

Senior member
May 25, 2007
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Looking at the tests here on anandtech the side blowing coolers let them overclock their processors higher as well. This makes perfect sense since the higher they overclock the more heat the processors put off, so a side blowing fan would not blow it back towards the components.
 

alaricljs

Golden Member
May 11, 2005
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It's all about give and take. In a perfect world the entire front of a case would pull air in, the entire rear would exhaust it and it'd all be silent.

More fans is more cooling, but means more noise. So, some people load up on 10 fans and go deaf. Me, I've got 4 fans in my P182 1 is the CPU HSF, the rest are case and they're as slow as I can make them. I only hear the very quiet woosh of air and only if nothing else in the house is making noise. My chipset could definitely use more wind if I want to OC, so that'd be another fan.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
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I'm using the arctic cooler that mounts so the fan blows through the heatsink and not against it.

I have my case set up so the front has a 120MM fan intake blowing straight into the arctic cooler fan, which blows towards the back of the case , where another 120mm fan blows air out. A straight path in , through, out , the case.

Keeps temps nice and low.

When I was going to school for electronics we discussed something called "standing waves" and why blowing onto heatsinks was a bad idea and that we should design so air flow blows along the fins and not straight into them.

We didn't spend but a few minutes on the topic so I don't recall much about it.
 

VinDSL

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2006
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Anandtech said it best in their latest "Downward blowing fans & heatsinks" review... ;)

We have tried to keep an open mind about the supposed advantages of down-facing fans. The arguments and logic are persuasive - a fan or fans blowing down should also cool your motherboard components better, and that should mean better performance. The argument is logical enough, but unfortunately the execution leaves a lot to be desired.
 

Synomenon

Lifer
Dec 25, 2004
10,547
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My Shuttle has a heatpipe heatsink with two fans. One fan on each side of the heatsink. One blows air at the heatsink while the one on the other side sucks air out. Works pretty well.
 

BadRobot

Senior member
May 25, 2007
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Originally posted by: Modelworks
I have my case set up so the front has a 120MM fan intake blowing straight into the arctic cooler fan, which blows towards the back of the case , where another 120mm fan blows air out. A straight path in , through, out , the case.

Keeps temps nice and low.

When I was going to school for electronics we discussed something called "standing waves" and why blowing onto heatsinks was a bad idea and that we should design so air flow blows along the fins and not straight into them.

Do you use a video card that puts out a lot of heat?

EDIT: The reason I asked was I was wondering if you monitored the temperature of the video card (or other components) to see if your fan for your artic cooler helped the overall temperature of your rig. Also, if you thought mounting a fan that would blow at the components of your rig, in a similar position as the fan of your arctic cooler, but instead at your components would help a significant amount?

Really this is all in the name of over clocking, not silence. I imagine if anyone wanted quiet as well as over clocking, then they just get as loud as a cooling device as they could stand and then o/c as much as possible...

Like i said try not to rag on me cause I'm new at cooling... :(
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
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The video card in this system is the 7600Gt, not a really hot card, but it does put out some heat.

I have a home made box with three temp probes that reads out the temps to me on an lcd on my desktop. I got one probe mounted on the bottom of the heatsink as close to the cpu as possible.

Another on the hard drives and a third on the video card gpu.
I've also used temp monitoring software.

This has been the best cooled, and quiet case I ever put together.

The way I have it is that the intake fan is at the same level as the bottom of the motherboard , so all the air that comes out the fan near its bottom blows across the board, the ram, the regulators, etc then straight out the back.

The middle of the fans air flow blows across the cpu and heatsink , while the rest of the fan blows across the back of the video card.

I think this is one of the best reasons to use as large an intake fan as you can fit.
That one fan in my case covers a very large area and lots of components.

My case has only a cd drive installed in the front , the fan takes up the rest of the drive bays. Attached with double sided tape.

I used an identical fan in the back so the airflow going in matches that being pulled out.

I'm getting better air flow with two fans than most people do with 4-5.

I just pulled off my case cover and everything, cpu heatsink, drives, video card, in the case is barely warm.

I was once told "Get as much air as you can in and out of the case as fast as possible"
 

SparkyJJO

Lifer
May 16, 2002
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Think of it this way.

You have a heatsink with a fan pulling away from it. Air passes through the heatsink before getting blown out of the fan. However, due to the design of most heatsinks (sealed flat bottom) the air has to come in the sides. This leaves the base part of the heatsink with very little airflow and that is the hottest part of the heatsink since it is closest to the heat source.

Now flip the fan around. Now you are forcing air onto the base of the heatsink as well as the fins. That base is the hottest part. Cools better to have direct airflow on the hottest part than just a little bit over the top of the hottest part.

The tower heatsinks with a fan blowing to the side do tend to perform the best.
 

BadRobot

Senior member
May 25, 2007
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Originally posted by: SparkyJJO
Think of it this way.

You have a heatsink with a fan pulling away from it. Air passes through the heatsink before getting blown out of the fan. However, due to the design of most heatsinks (sealed flat bottom) the air has to come in the sides. This leaves the base part of the heatsink with very little airflow and that is the hottest part of the heatsink since it is closest to the heat source.
Now flip the fan around. Now you are forcing air onto the base of the heatsink as well as the fins. That base is the hottest part. Cools better to have direct airflow on the hottest part than just a little bit over the top of the hottest part.

The tower heatsinks with a fan blowing to the side do tend to perform the best.

Ahh, there we go thats the logic i was looking for.

and true for the most part if it weren't for the fact that it then pushes some of that heat to the mobo and the rest of the components which can defeat the point of a higher end heatsink/fan when over clocking.

Another question that was partially answered by Modelworks

Originally posted by: Modelworks

The middle of the fans air flow blows across the cpu and heatsink , while the rest of the fan blows across the back of the video card.

I was wondering how in the heck does the airflow actually help the video card much because of its position in the case. So pretty much always put the video card in the slot closest to the air vent in the back.

Because most basic cases seemed to have crappy airflow for the expansion slots...
The air enters in the front at the bottom through a fan then travels diaganolly up torwards the back/top of the case and pretty much ignore the corner where the expansion cards are.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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BadRobot,

I believe what is confusing you is a common misconception and a concept that many people have trouble with. That is the difference between temperature and heat.

As you pointed out a "fancy" otherwise know as a fairly high cubic feet per minute fan is used on the heatsink. The volume of air moved is high, the amount of heat removed is fairly high, the temperature of the air is not that high.

I believe that mistake that believing that heat equals temperature is why you don't see the logic.

Take a look at the new P35 motherboards such as the gigabyte GA-P35-DQ6
http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Pro...ge.aspx?ProductID=2532

Look at the effort they have put into cooling motherboard components and where those heatsinks are on the board. A fan blowing directly on them is the best way to keep them cool.
 

BadRobot

Senior member
May 25, 2007
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I do agree that a fan blowing directly at a component is very effective at cooling in a lot of situations. I also understand what you mean by heat and temperature. But i do not agree that it would be the best or most efficient inside a case that is being over clocked heavily.

I think this because of how I would imagine it interferes with the air flow inside the case. I.e. it might redirect the air flow so the fans would have to work harder to push and pull the same amount of air in and out of the case.

Obviously i am not an expert on the subject. I do beleive though that having a continuous flow of air in a single direction across the board/components is better than having it redirected or interefered with by fans that blow directly at them.

alaricljs made a good point for blowing fans directly at components with this...

Originally posted by: alaricljs
The issue is that there is little to no airflow against the mobo and its components. The air near the board and the NB/SB and RAM becomes heat saturated. Any airflow is better than no airflow in this situation.

But in over clocking situations i would think that a continuous flow of new air from outside the case would be more effective at cooling with the proper heatsinks to pull the heat away from the board and in fact think that whenever possible heat pipes should go up and away form the board and/or any components.

EDIT:

Originally posted by: etech
Take a look at the new P35 motherboards such as the gigabyte GA-P35-DQ6
http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Pro...ge.aspx?ProductID=2532

Look at the effort they have put into cooling motherboard components and where those heatsinks are on the board. A fan blowing directly on them is the best way to keep them cool.

good point. I would say the best way to cool that mobo would be to point a fan at it...but i would also say that the heat pipe is poorly placed.
 

VinDSL

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2006
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Originally posted by: etech
I believe what is confusing you is a common misconception and a concept that many people have trouble with. That is the difference between temperature and heat...
Originally posted by: BadRobot
I also understand what you mean by heat and temperature...
Heat is the absence of cold!

Temperature is the measurement of heat!

Um...

Are we all on the same page here?!?!?! :)

If not, what is your understanding of these things?
 

aCynic2

Senior member
Apr 28, 2007
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Originally posted by: alaricljs
It's all about give and take. In a perfect world the entire front of a case would pull air in, the entire rear would exhaust it and it'd all be silent.

I was so close to buying th Antec Nine Hundred and 1-2 extra fans for just this reason. I decided on the P180, w/ one 120mm fan in the middle drive bay, because I prefered the stainless steel appliance apearance over the blue bling.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
16,822
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Look:

Ducted Cooling

I've tried this with a P4P800SE motherboard and Prescott 3.4E, using ThermalRight SI-120, VGA and chipset coolers -- it works. The problem with the ThermalRight coolers similar to the SI-120 design (XP-90, XP-120, SI-128) is the difficulty in building a motherboard duct that sits closer to the motherboard. It's easier to build the main duct panel so that it is level with the top of the heatsink.

Another poster here had asked why blowing air that was pre-warmed by heatsink fins back onto the heatsink base would enhance cooling, and the answer provided dealt with the airflow in CFM and the difference between "temperature" and "heat."

On a molecular level, figure that you are providing locally pressurized air which exits the fan at a certain speed and pressure. The air molecules enter the heatsink fins and bounce around between them, picking up the thermal energy from the fins. The air molecules are effective at lowering the temperature of the heatsink fins to the point where their temperature is equal to that of the fins. With any decent CFM of airflow, blowing the air down on the heatsink base just allows it to pick up additional thermal energy before being blown out the case exhaust.
 

cyrillus

Junior Member
Dec 22, 2006
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I know it's a bit off-topic, but I was wondering if it'd be possible to get pics of your setup with the SI-120? I have an XP-120 and am looking to see if ducting is even beneficial, figured I'd try it out with some spare cardboard to test it, but am looking for tips on the setup.
 

Pigbristle

Junior Member
Jun 15, 2007
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First off I got to say this is my first post at anandtech & it was all down to that link from Bonzaiduck (ducted cooling).

You see for many months I have been rattling my brains to think of a better way of cooling PC components & finally came up with an idea that coincides with the ducted article (so just not me then, that obviously thinks this is a great idea).

To me this is simple: On a normal setup, a lot of that cooled inlet air gets sucked right out of the back without having cooled anything.

On this ducted setup: none of the front cool inlet air gets wasted, its all put through the cpu cooler, much more efficient ;O)

I'm hoping to set up this ducting solution on my next build & looking for anybody who has tried this to hopefully give me some tips/ideas or problems I may come across?

I noticed that yourself (bonzaiduck) said you had tried this system out yourself & it worked.
Do you think one 120mm exhaust fan would be sufficient to exit the hot air? (my case only has room for one)

Is there any particular material you would recommend for the ducting?

And you mentioned the fact that with some coolers you can not get the duct close to the motherboard, would this have a big negative impact?

My next system will be the new P35 Intel board, E6600, either standard cooler or my old Zalman CNPS7000B, would any one of these be better then the other?

I'm really grateful for any help given & look forward to hearing your views on the subject.


 

BadRobot

Senior member
May 25, 2007
547
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0
Bonzaiduck,

Originally posted by: BonzaiDuck
Another poster here had asked why blowing air that was pre-warmed by heatsink fins back onto the heatsink base would enhance cooling, and the answer provided dealt with the airflow in CFM and the difference between "temperature" and "heat."

I'm not saying that downward blowing fans don't help at all, I'm just saying that a fan that blows parallel to the board might cool better because...
A) It will interfere with the airflow less through the case
B) That fresh air from the front would cool the other components better than air that just came off a heat sink from the processor.

This might be able to be acheived with a second fan mounted in a way that it would pull air from the front fan to blow on the components

Am I wrong?

I don't mind admitting that I'm wrong. I was just saying that, logically, side blowing fans should allow people to over clock more due to how the air flow works inside a case.

VinDSL,

What did I say imparticular that made it seem I don't understand what temperature and heat are?

Not being rude, I was just curious because thats the second time some one has questioned if i understand how they work but I don't recall anyone telling me why they would think I don't understand.
 

VinDSL

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2006
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Originally posted by: BadRobot
VinDSL,

What did I say imparticular that made it seem I don't understand what temperature and heat are?

Not being rude, I was just curious because thats the second time some one has questioned if i understand how they work but I don't recall anyone telling me why they would think I don't understand.
Nothing personal, bro! I was just throwing that out for public consumption...

It's a pet peeve of mine!

I hear a LOT of ppl mixing the words 'heat' and 'temperature' as if they are the same thing! :)

It's like mixing the terms 'needs', 'wants', and desires'...

I'm sure you know the difference between those too! :D

Some ppl 'desire' down-facing fan coolers despite a documented track record of being under-performers...

I guess they 'want' to be different...

What they actually 'need' is a heatpipe tower!

That's all!
 

BadRobot

Senior member
May 25, 2007
547
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My bad i'll try to use the correct term in the future I definatell was not concerned before about it but now that i think about it, it would be confusing sometimes if i mixed them.

But any opinions on my suggestion about side blowing fans? Not trying to claim I know the answer, just wanted to probe the minds of people who had been cooling much longer than I.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
16,822
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BadRobot -- You're not entirely wrong -- just a bit sensitive.

There have been some very stunning examples of configurations which suck air from the heatsink bottom and duct it past the heatsink top and out the case rear. One of these examples used the Zalman CNPS-7000 copper-"flower" heatsink. The user took the wrist part of a long rubber glove -- basically an elastic tube -- and fitted it over the flower, leaving narrow apertures where the fins meet the heatsink base. He then fitted a fan and right-angle/L-shaped duct to the top of the flower -- secured to the case rear.

What we're discussing here is whether air becomes ineffective at picking up thermal energy if it has been slightly warmed after passing through heatsink fins. If the CFM of that air is sufficient, the gain in thermal energy per molecule of air will be insignificant to its remaining potential to pick up additional thermal energy before it has been exhausted.

An interesting point made in the "Cheap As Free" ducting article at OverClockers deals with the effective use of fans. There seems to be a prevalent myth that pressurizing cases is not an effective cooling method, or that it leads to stale air-pockets which increase in temperature within the case.

But on the contrary, if the pressurized part of the case is isolated from the warm electronic components by various panels, that air will not become significantly warmer and will serve as a reservoir of cool air which is then ducted from the case and exhausted after picking up heat from the warm components. This is one situation in which fans feeding air to each other in series actually augment airflow -- ordinarily, putting two fans together with one blowing air into the other do not add to airflow significantly, unless the "serving fan" is larger and the "receiving fan" is smaller. But here, we're creating a pressurized reservoir of air within the case, which is then pulled through narrow apertures around the warm components and ducted to the exhaust.

Someone asked for pictures from my Prescott system, and I'm going to oblige in just a minute here. [I had to configure my Ipswitch software to access a "personal web-page" to upload these photos -- haven't worked with HTML in several years, and am currently focused on sheet-metal and other case-mod-related work].

All of these innovations serve to reduce the number of fans to a minimum within a case -- conserving a few watts of electrical power-usage, and reducing noise. Basically, from my experience with the Prescott system, I choose the larger fans for intake, selecting them to provide larger CFMs than the total exhaust CFMS -- by some reasonable margin. Of course, filtering the intake fans will reduce rated CFMs, but if the intake rpm-fan-speeds are adjustable and the exhaust speeds are adjustable, everything can be brought to an optimum.

Someone also asked if a single 120mm exhaust fan is sufficient, and I would say -- if this is a midtower case -- and if the ducts are designed to keep the CFMs through the CPU heatsink at a reasonable level while also drawing air off the motherboard surface -- I cannot see why not. I choose my fans for bigger motors and higher speed/CFM ranges, while paying attention to their dBA noise ratings. For that reason, my Prescott system's CPU fan is a Delta Tri-Blade which has a top-end speed of 3,700 rpms and a maximum CFM throughput of nearly 150 CFM, but I don't run the fan up that high (the dBA level approaches 50). The Delta is marvelously quiet in the range between 1,000 and 2,500 rpm.

Another good fan which I'm using for my Core-2-Duo build-in-progress is a Sanyo-Denki San-Ace, which top-ends at around 2,500 rpm, draws 0.52A at 12V, and seems relatively quiet. But there are many good fans "out there" to fit the various ways in which you wish to deploy them.

The choice of exhaust fans depends on whether they are augmented by the CPU fan through ducting, or otherwise serve for both exhaust and a CPU fan. For the ThermalRight Ultra-120 and Extreme, the opportunity exists to use the exhaust fan to pull air through the U-120 fins if the fins sit close enough to the fan's intake side.

For the other ThermalRight coolers such as the XP-120/90, SI-120 and SI-128, there is the opportunity to work the CPU FAN and exhaust fans in "serial-augmentation" with the ducted-area in-between. The better design of a duct would limit the largest volume within the duct to the area just below the heatsink fins, so that the motherboard duct-panel would sit just a quarter-inch above either the chipset cooler or the memory modules.

My duct was of "cruder" design. I originally used black foam-art-board -- a step up from cardboard -- but good enough for permanent use -- it's not conductive, it doesn't accumulate static charge, it's rigid and can be glued together with anything from "Automotive Goop" to "Shoe-Goo" to Contact Cement or similar substances. You can secure duct-panels (of either the foam-board or clear Lexan) by gluing patches of Velcro to the parts, case-panels etc. Or you can tap 6-32 screw-holes in case metal for screws or standoffs which fit the panels.

So my first photo shows the duct made exclusively of foam board. By the way -- Michael's Arts and Crafts is usually touted for carrying foam board, and I once thought that $6 per 2'x3' panel was reasonable. Not so. Target and other stores carry Elmer's foam board 2'x3' panels for something like $1.90.

Initial foam board duct-box

Note that the upper-left-corner of the construction shows a protruding box -- a separate component -- which is cut to fit two 92mm exhaust fans as precisely as possible. There wasn't any room in this old case for a 120mm exhaust fan.

Replaced main duct panel with Lexan

This second photo shows the replacement of the flat duct-panel with Lexan. The duct-box around the exhaust fans is still shown to be foam-board, but I have since learned to bend Lexan with a heat-gun, and so that duct-component has also been completely replaced with Lexan.

The folding front-side of the duct-system is still foam board. It sits just a quarter-inch above the memory modules so that air is forced past them at a high-velocity. Except that the drive cages cannot be illuminated by the blue-LED lights, it is convenient to leave this flexible foam board piece as is.

Before replacing my 3.2E processor with a 3.4E, the 3.2 was over-clocked to 3.5 Mhz using the ASUS mobo's ability to unlock the multiplier and drop it by a value of 2. Therefore, the front-side bus was boosted to 1,000 Mhz to run the DDR500 memories at their full spec. Temperatures with any processor or over-clock setting in this machine have never exceeded 43C or 110F at full load and room ambients exceeding 75F.
 

BadRobot

Senior member
May 25, 2007
547
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Originally posted by: BonzaiDuck

What we're discussing here is whether air becomes ineffective at picking up thermal energy if it has been slightly warmed after passing through heatsink fins. If the CFM of that air is sufficient, the gain in thermal energy per molecule of air will be insignificant to its remaining potential to pick up additional thermal energy before it has been exhausted.

An interesting point made in the "Cheap As Free" ducting article at OverClockers deals with the effective use of fans. There seems to be a prevalent myth that pressurizing cases is not an effective cooling method, or that it leads to stale air-pockets which increase in temperature within the case.

But on the contrary, if the pressurized part of the case is isolated from the warm electronic components by various panels, that air will not become significantly warmer and will serve as a reservoir of cool air which is then ducted from the case and exhausted after picking up heat from the warm components. This is one situation in which fans feeding air to each other in series actually augment airflow -- ordinarily, putting two fans together with one blowing air into the other do not add to airflow significantly, unless the "serving fan" is larger and the "receiving fan" is smaller. But here, we're creating a pressurized reservoir of air within the case, which is then pulled through narrow apertures around the warm components and ducted to the exhaust.

1) Good enough for me, so basically the air coming of the heat sync is still plenty capable of cooling other components.

2)And the redirection of the airflow caused by the fan blowing directly at a component is negated if your case is pressurized (more air in than out)

 

JimiP

Senior member
May 6, 2007
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One thing to remember is that heat rises. I think having a fan at the top of the case (whether that's a 200mm like the Antec 900 or a 120mm like the Antec P180) to pull the heat out the top. Along with that is to have a fan mounted on your heatsink in such a way that it pulls the heat up and out.