Download Unix ????

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: drag
quick snippit from freebsd's site:

"It is true that AT&T UNIX is not open source, and in a copyright sense BSD is very definitely not UNIX,"

So that's why I suppose thats why they don't refer FreeBSD as FreeUNIX? heh. I know that FreeBSD is about as Unix as one can get without going and paying for a System V-based OS.

I actually think Solaris is. And so does the Open Group.

If you want to get down to it it just doesn't realy make any diffence to me whether you considure Linux a unix OS.

Good, because its not.

Unix-like is good enough for me.

It should be. Unix is a commercial name. Nothing more, nothing less. The Unix philosophy is what counts.

I definately ain't no puriest,

Nor are Linux developers.

but you will have a hard time convincing me that FreeBSD is Unix because some people decided that in the mid-nineties that Linux is not a Unix when FreeBSD cannot even legally call themselves UNIX! Some standard that is. :/

The people decided that are the people that own the word Unix. Its not a standard really. Its a loose guideline and a big check.

You cannot call a apple a orange and visa versa, but hey they are both fruit! And I tend to considure unix (with a lowercase "u" if that make you happy) the "fruit" classification and Unix, FreeBSD, BSD4.2, System V, and Linux as the subcatagory as apples, oranges, cherries, and tomatoes. Maybe Linux is a unix tomato? Heh, a sort of fruity, but not quite as fruity as the BSD's or SunOS.

SunOS was a BSD I believe.

But I do suppose that from the OS developer's point of view that Linux is defienitly not a Unix, but the point of view of the common User or Admin, the differences are minor. When you compare Linux and FreeBSD to say Windows, Novell, Plan9, Be0S or some such thing they are both definately Unix OS's. And even though I have no personal experiance with it I would suppose that their are bigger diffences between HPunix, SunOS, and FreeBSD then there are between FreeBSD and some Linux distros.

HP-UX is a wierd animal. SunOS is dead. Solaris has some quirks. Ill keep my mouth shut about FreeBSD.

Its not like I would like to get in a fight over it or anything, but all I know is once you learn one of the afformentioned OS's then you will feel comfortable operating in any of the other ones.

And that, in my (again) not so humble (and still grumpy) opinion is the beauty of the philosophy of Unix, which is not Unix (if that makes any sense).

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: majewski9
UNIX is pretty much a dinosaur.

No. Its like a wine.

These Linux distros are much better than most UNIXes you are going to find out there.

Really? While I detest Linux, I can see many good things in it (unfortunately they are GPLed so developers are handcuffed in what they can do with those things). But, Linux still does not stack up against Solaris, or Irix, or HP-UX, or AIX in many high end arenas. Its being worked on, but its not quite there. Despite its quirks, Id still trust Solaris over Linux in 100% uptime, mission critical, high end, every piece of hardware you throw at this will be too slow environments. Depending on what I need anyhow.

Are you talking about Solaris cause thats about as UNIX as you are going to get. Trust me Linux Distros like Mandrake are much better than Solaris.

Why do you say that? Is it their proven support of high end big iron 64+ processor machines? Or is it the fact that it detects all your hardware out of the box and has a pretty little gui to do half of the admin stuff for you? If you dont know, Solaris has some gui tools, although they are increadibly ugly.

I have been pleading that we switch to Linux Mandrake instead of Solaris. Hasnt happened fully yet.

We? Must be a company. What benefits does Mandrake have over Solaris? Why not Debian? Or a real commercial distro like SuSE or RedHat?

Please dont post crap. I respect the fact that you have an opinion on the matter, but when you post no facts you make me think you are just another "PC loving, Linux is 3j337 because mommy cant use it, mandrake is better than your distro because its french, WTF is this bash# thing on my screen, nVidia r0x but I cant read the instructions on how to install my drivers, how do I install WINE because I need to forward more Outlook email viruses, samba rocks because I can share with my winME machines, windows is insecure in all situations and the stability sucks compared to Linux, Id have a good uptime but I reboot to Windows for games every day, I installed Linux but I never boot into it because its hard" type idiot. So post some information on why Mandrake is better than Solaris in all situations so I can tell my gut instinct to STFU.

 

[Nothinman]

Really? While I detest Linux, I can see many good things in it (unfortunately they are GPLed so developers are handcuffed in what they can do with those things)

If you really wanna use something in Linux in a closed product email the the owner and see about getting your own specially licensed copy of it, it's not like that never happens.

But, Linux still does not stack up against Solaris, or Irix, or HP-UX, or AIX in many high end arenas. Its being worked on, but its not quite there

And funnily enough all the BSDs are miles behind Linux, even with FreeBSD 5.0 being released recently. Most of the time it's a better bet to run 6 2-way boxes clustered than it is one big 12-way box, it's cheaper and easier to handle downtime since taking 1 box down won't affect the entire product. There's very few reasons to use a single huge 12, 16, 32, 64, etc CPU box and in those places it probably makes more sense to use Solaris, OpenVMS, Tru64, etc or something that handles the hardware better but for most people in most situations Linux is cheaper and faster.

Despite its quirks, Id still trust Solaris over Linux in 100% uptime, mission critical, high end, every piece of hardware you throw at this will be too slow environments. Depending on what I need anyhow.

I wouldn't trust any single box to a 100% uptime situation, it's just not going to happen. Eventually, something will go wrong (even if it's hardware related).

If you dont know, Solaris has some gui tools, although they are increadibly ugly.

And half of them are just shortcuts that run 'xterm -e 'blah''.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

Really? While I detest Linux, I can see many good things in it (unfortunately they are GPLed so developers are handcuffed in what they can do with those things)

If you really wanna use something in Linux in a closed product email the the owner and see about getting your own specially licensed copy of it, it's not like that never happens.

Doesnt that kind of detract from the whole GPL thing?

But, Linux still does not stack up against Solaris, or Irix, or HP-UX, or AIX in many high end arenas. Its being worked on, but its not quite there

And funnily enough all the BSDs are miles behind Linux,

Agreed.

even with FreeBSD 5.0 being released recently. Most of the time it's a better bet to run 6 2-way boxes clustered than it is one big 12-way box, it's cheaper and easier to handle downtime since taking 1 box down won't affect the entire product. There's very few reasons to use a single huge 12, 16, 32, 64, etc CPU box and in those places it probably makes more sense to use Solaris, OpenVMS, Tru64, etc or something that handles the hardware better but for most people in most situations Linux is cheaper and faster.

Despite its quirks, Id still trust Solaris over Linux in 100% uptime, mission critical, high end, every piece of hardware you throw at this will be too slow environments. Depending on what I need anyhow.

I wouldn't trust any single box to a 100% uptime situation, it's just not going to happen. Eventually, something will go wrong (even if it's hardware related).

Agreed. Especially with the Orange Alert in DC right now (where I work). Sun is doing some neat things with their SunFire machines (very IBMesque, which the Sun Engineers hate to hear ).

If you dont know, Solaris has some gui tools, although they are increadibly ugly.

And half of them are just shortcuts that run 'xterm -e 'blah''.

Probably.

Linux has its place, but I wouldnt say it makes Solaris or others obsolete enough to drop. Even I will be loading Linux on a "new" machine soon at home, and use a Linux workstation at work for some things (all real work related stuff ).

 

[Nothinman]

Doesnt that kind of detract from the whole GPL thing?

Not really. The licensor still gets to GPL the open code and decide who, if anyone, gets to use it in a closed product. How do you think Partition Magic got ability to resize ext2 partitons? Ted Tso wrote the code, only in his contract that code became GPL after a certain amount of time and because part of the standart ext2 filesystem tools package.

Probably.

More than probably. I know for instance the 'disk space tool' run 'dtterm -e 'df -k'' (I finally remember the name of there terminal emulator =) ). The GUI tools shipped with Solaris are pretty bad IMHO, it's funny to see everyone crying about how Linux has no GUI tools but then you look at Solaris and Tru64 and realize Linux is way ahead of them in that arena too. But Webmin is more convenient than most of them anyway.

Linux has its place, but I wouldnt say it makes Solaris or others obsolete enough to drop.

I wouldn't say it obsoletes anything either (yet) but when deploying a unix based product you better look long and hard as to whether you really need to use an expensive solution like Solaris or Tru64, because once you've sunk that money into that hardware you won't want to replace it any time soon.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

Doesnt that kind of detract from the whole GPL thing?

Not really. The licensor still gets to GPL the open code and decide who, if anyone, gets to use it in a closed product. How do you think Partition Magic got ability to resize ext2 partitons? Ted Tso wrote the code, only in his contract that code became GPL after a certain amount of time and because part of the standart ext2 filesystem tools package.

Then why not start with a BSD license? You can have the businesses pick it up to do their thing and the Free software people are happy and you open source software people cant complain too much.

Probably.

More than probably. I know for instance the 'disk space tool' run 'dtterm -e 'df -k'' (I finally remember the name of there terminal emulator =) ). The GUI tools shipped with Solaris are pretty bad IMHO, it's funny to see everyone crying about how Linux has no GUI tools but then you look at Solaris and Tru64 and realize Linux is way ahead of them in that arena too. But Webmin is more convenient than most of them anyway.

I admit some of Solaris's tools are pretty bad, but I like admintool.

Linux has its place, but I wouldnt say it makes Solaris or others obsolete enough to drop.

I wouldn't say it obsoletes anything either (yet) but when deploying a unix based product you better look long and hard as to whether you really need to use an expensive solution like Solaris or Tru64, because once you've sunk that money into that hardware you won't want to replace it any time soon.

One of the benefits of non x86 hardware is that you can buy it and let it run for years.

 

[Sunner]

Am I the only one who thinks Solaris, Linux, and the BSD's can all live hapilly side by side?
I've never understood why so many Linux/BSD/Solaris/Whatever your fav *NIX is people feel the need to complain about other *NIX's they for some reason don't like.

I like Solaris for it's stability(well when run on decent SPARC hardware anyways), I like Disksuite, etc.
I like OpenBSD for it's general quality, PF, great manpages, etc.
I like Linux for it's general versatility, it's scalable enough for most tasks, has good userland tools, decent manpages, and I can pick from alot of distro's depending on what I need.

In the end, I like all of them, and in my eyes they're all *NIX's, no matter what they legally are.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Sunner
Am I the only one who thinks Solaris, Linux, and the BSD's can all live hapilly side by side?
I've never understood why so many Linux/BSD/Solaris/Whatever your fav *NIX is people feel the need to complain about other *NIX's they for some reason don't like.

I like Solaris for it's stability(well when run on decent SPARC hardware anyways), I like Disksuite, etc.
I like OpenBSD for it's general quality, PF, great manpages, etc.
I like Linux for it's general versatility, it's scalable enough for most tasks, has good userland tools, decent manpages, and I can pick from alot of distro's depending on what I need.

In the end, I like all of them, and in my eyes they're all *NIX's, no matter what they legally are.

Just because I dont like it doesnt mean I wont use the best tool for the job.

 

[Nothinman]

Then why not start with a BSD license? You can have the businesses pick it up to do their thing and the Free software people are happy and you open source software people cant complain too much.

Ask the person who chose the GPL. Maybe they don't want companies profiting from their work without them getting something back from it.

One of the benefits of non x86 hardware is that you can buy it and let it run for years.

My point was that if at some point you decide to move away from Solaris/Sparc it's a lot more expensive because of the cost of the hardware, and even more so if you decide to move to something else like HP-UX/PA-RISC or Tru64/Alpha.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

Then why not start with a BSD license? You can have the businesses pick it up to do their thing and the Free software people are happy and you open source software people cant complain too much.

Ask the person who chose the GPL. Maybe they don't want companies profiting from their work without them getting something back from it.

One of the benefits of non x86 hardware is that you can buy it and let it run for years.

My point was that if at some point you decide to move away from Solaris/Sparc it's a lot more expensive because of the cost of the hardware, and even more so if you decide to move to something else like HP-UX/PA-RISC or Tru64/Alpha.

Both of which are dead technologies

 

[Nothinman]

You're so funny heh.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Nothinman
You're so funny heh.

I wish it was a joke. I like the Alpha. PA-RISC I dont know enough about.

 

[Nothinman]

It doesn't even matter very much what CPU you're using, most of them are fast enough that it doesn't affect the software either way.

The main thing I like is that by running diverse architectures is that exploits are commonly only done for x86, so if I'm running on Sparc those exploits have no chance of working and the worst they might do is crash a daemon.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Nothinman
It doesn't even matter very much what CPU you're using, most of them are fast enough that it doesn't affect the software either way.

The main thing I like is that by running diverse architectures is that exploits are commonly only done for x86, so if I'm running on Sparc those exploits have no chance of working and the worst they might do is crash a daemon.

sparc is the first port for exploits. Atleast, I could usually ask some of the attack lab crew at my last job for sparc versions of the big x86 exploits.

 

[Nothinman]

sparc is the first port for exploits. Atleast, I could usually ask some of the attack lab crew at my last job for sparc versions of the big x86 exploits.

While that's probably true those aren't the people I'm worried about.

 

[ultimatebob]

Originally posted by: softwebdev
all the software you recommend is LINUX. What i want is UNIX. like the one big company is looking for.

BingBongWongFooey recommended NetBSD, FreeBSD, and OpenBSD, which are all free variants of BSD Unix.

Besides, Linux is becoming VERY popular with big companies like Ford and IBM. It's a good thing to learn, and it's a free download.

 

[softwebdev]

the reason why i post this post is I want to become a Unix administrator.

i hope i will be able to download or buy a copy of Unix and learn it by myself.

if anybody here knows what BIG company means when they say that they are using Unix, please let me know.

i just want to be on top of my career
thank you very much for your response

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: softwebdev
the reason why i post this post is I want to become a Unix administrator.

i hope i will be able to download or buy a copy of Unix and learn it by myself.

if anybody here knows what BIG company means when they say that they are using Unix, please let me know.

i just want to be on top of my career
thank you very much for your response

How BIG?

I work for a company that has government contractors. I see: Solaris, HP-UX, and Linux as the big ones. There is proof out there the DoD uses OpenBSD. I would not be surprised if FreeBSD is used in some areas. Nor would I be surprised seeing an AIX machine lying around.

Enough of the BS I was posting before (although little debates between Nothinman and myself are fun ). This is about what I would do:

Ditch Windows. Its temptation and distracts you from your goals.

Download and install Linux. It doesnt matter which, although I would go with Debian or Slackware to start (two distros I think are great and they make you take the hard way). It will be frustrating and fun (if you love learning). Get fairly familiar with Linux. RedHat and SuSE are the big commercial distros out there, so learning them is definitely a plus, but learning another distro will not harm your RH/SuSE knowledge.

If you have a few spare bucks, pick up a Sun machine. A low end ultra or even a sparcstation will work fine (with Solaris 8, a Sun Enginner mentioned 9 dropped one proc type but wasnt sure whether it was m or d (I think it was d).

HP-UX and AIX machines are tougher to get a hold of. Most of the knowledge you pick up between Solaris and Linux will translate to HP-UX and AIX fairly well. Eventually finding a gopher job or a junior admin type job will be a definite plus.

Some important steps in the process are to not get too frustrated with it. Learning a lot of this stuff on your own is tough. Especially when asking questions gets you flames. But, on the good side, we have some interresting docs here on AT (FAQs), Ive written a couple, the linux documentation project is not strictly Linux information, and google.com can find just about everything. marc.theaimsgroup.com has a lot of mailing list archives that are searchable. So finding information on your own can be pretty easy. Work on things yourself, read the docs and the mailing lists. If you cant figure it out, post *very specific* questions around the net and you will get good answers with very few flames.

Also, pick a couple of projects. "I want to get a webserver setup." Its quick and easy. Once you have figured that out, move onto a new project (ie dns server, mail server, database server, etc). Read as much as you can on these technologies and you should have a lot of fun learning new things and have something to work towards. Having goals definitely makes working on things easier. It gives your studies focus.

I hope that was enough of me rambling. If you have any questions on my post, or comments, please respond. I look forward to seeing what anyone else has to say about this post.

 

[Nothinman]

if anybody here knows what BIG company means when they say that they are using Unix, please let me know.

The big company I work for uses Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, Tru64, HP-UX and whatever IBM Sequent boxes run. At the most basic level unix is unix and linux looks like unix.

I'll stop now because the rest of this post would just end up looking like a reiteration of n0c's last post =)

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

if anybody here knows what BIG company means when they say that they are using Unix, please let me know.

The big company I work for uses Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, Tru64, HP-UX and whatever IBM Sequent boxes run. At the most basic level unix is unix and linux looks like unix.

I'll stop now because the rest of this post would just end up looking like a reiteration of n0c's last post =)

I have PMs turned on, so if you really wanted to discuss it and dont want to possibly crap in the thread any more than I did, please PM me. Id be interrested in seeing the response. Unless it goes something like "You mentioned linux but never mentioned learning BSDs!"

 

[Nothinman]

I think you misunderstood. I said I didn't want to type the same thing as you again, not contradict what you typed =0

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Nothinman
I think you misunderstood. I said I didn't want to type the same thing as you again, not contradict what you typed =0

Ahh, gotcha. I guess I cant read