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Dow Jones Industrial Average up 30% from March 9 low. Is this a sucker's rally?

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
I'm not educated enough in this field to try to time to market hitting rock bottom, but as someone who pulled all of his money out of equity and into cash eight months before the crash and still has four or five decades of work ahead of him, I am looking for a good time to get back into the market.

So what say you: Are we headed for another big drop?

Was It a Sucker's Rally?

The Dow Jones Industrial Average has bounced an astounding 30% from its March 9 low of 6547. Is this the dawn of a new era? Are we off to the races again?

I'm not so sure. Only a fool predicts the stock market, so here I go. This sure smells to me like a sucker's rally. That's because there aren't sustainable, fundamental reasons for the market's continued rise. Here are three explanations for the short-term upswing:

Armageddon Is Off The Table

It has been clear for some time that the funds available from the federal government's Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) were not going to be enough to shore up bank balance sheets laced with toxic assets.

On Feb. 10, Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner rolled out another, much hyped bank rescue plan. It was judged incomplete -- and the market sold off 382 points in disgust.

Citigroup stock flirted with $1 on March 9. Nationalizations seemed inevitable as bears had their day.

Still, the Treasury bought time by announcing on the same day as Mr. Geithner's underwhelming rescue plan that it would conduct "stress tests" of 19 large U.S. banks. It also implied, over time, that no bank would fail the test (which was more a negotiation than an audit). And when White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel clearly stated on April 19 that nationalization was "not the goal" of the administration, it became safe to own financial stocks again.

It doesn't matter if financial institution losses are $2 trillion or the pessimists' $3.6 trillion. "No more failures" is policy. While the U.S. government may end up owning maybe a third of the equity of Citi and Bank of America and a few others, none will be nationalized. And even though future bank profits will be held back by constant write downs of "legacy" assets (we don't call them toxic anymore), the bears have backed off and the market rallied -- Citi is now $4.

Zero Yields

The Federal Reserve, by driving short-term rates to almost zero, has messed up asset allocation formulas. Money always seeks its highest risk-adjusted return. Thus in normal markets if bond yields rise they become more attractive than risky stocks, so money shifts. And vice versa. Well, have you looked at your bank statement lately?

Savings accounts pay a whopping 0.2% interest rate -- 20 basis points. Even seven-day commercial paper money-market funds are paying under 50 basis points. So money has shifted to stocks, some of it automatically, as bond returns are puny compared to potential stock returns. Meanwhile, both mutual funds and hedge funds that missed the market pop are playing catch-up -- rushing to buy stocks.

Bernanke's Printing Press

On March 18, the Federal Reserve announced it would purchase up to $300 billion of long-term bonds as well as $750 billion of mortgage-backed securities. Of all the Fed's moves, this "quantitative easing" gets money into the economy the fastest -- basically by cranking the handle of the printing press and flooding the market with dollars (in reality, with additional bank credit). Since these dollars are not going into home building, coal-fired electric plants or auto factories, they end up in the stock market.

A rising market means that banks are able to raise much-needed equity from private money funds instead of from the feds. And last Thursday, accompanying this flood of new money, came the reassuring results of the bank stress tests.

The next day Morgan Stanley raised $4 billion by selling stock at $24 in an oversubscribed deal. Wells Fargo also raised $8.6 billion that day by selling stock at $22 a share, up from $8 two months ago. And Bank of America registered 1.25 billion shares to sell this week. Citi is next. It's almost as if someone engineered a stock-market rally to entice private investors to fund the banks rather than taxpayers.

Can you see why I believe this is a sucker's rally?

The Stock Market Still Has Big Hurdles To Clear

You can have a jobless recovery, but you can't have a profitless recovery. Consider: Earnings are subpar, Treasury's last auction was a bust because of weak demand, the dollar is suspect, the stimulus is pork, the latest budget projects a $1.84 trillion deficit, the administration is berating investment firms and hedge funds saying "I don't stand with them," California is dead broke, health care may be nationalized, cap and trade will bump electric bills by 30% . . . Shall I go on?

Until these issues are resolved, I don't see the stock market going much higher. I'm not disagreeing with the Fed's policies -- but I won't buy into a rising stock market based on them. I'm bullish when I see productivity driving wealth.

For now, the market appears dependent on a hand cranking out dollars to help fund banks. I'd rather see rising expectations for corporate profits.
 
Maybe it's justified, the recent stress test results seemed pretty encouraging to me. Although many large banks still aren't in great shape, none were in immediate danger of becoming insolvent. IMO the problem is that 6-7k DOW was just *way* undervalued, investors weren't acting rationally but now I think people are less consumed by fear and are behaving more rationally.
 
I lucked out and made two (large to me) stock purchases on the two lowest days of the year. I truely think that a return to S&P 750 is probable. I've been debating on when to get out though. I thought we'd get a good bump up from the stress test releases, but that basically was priced in. If it hits S&P 950, I'm cashing in my profits. But, will it get there before plunging again?
 
The only way to find out is if you put where you mouth is! Buy some stock and if you lose then it's a suckers' rally otherwise it's the real thing! Me? No sir, I know better when to hold and when to fold!
 
Most recessions last an average of 18 months,... we are at that point basically. The majority of the excess build up in value and resulting problems of the housing market has been taken care of. We are now in a more sound situation overall.

The market always falls prior to many things in the economy (jobs) and jobs recovery after the market/businesses,.....

We have seen the bottom of the market,... we might have some volatility and ups and downs for the rest of this year, but as more and more confidence is restored the market will return.

Think about this as well,... much of the inventory for businesses was reduced as manufacturing was slowed over the last 12+ months and there is now a need to start increasing manufacturing,... a sign that jobs will start to return in the next 12 months (I see jobs recovering in the 1st half of next year).

If you are doing long term investing,.. this is absolutely the best time for long term stock holdings or mutual fund holdings,.... short term investing (less than 2 years) then that is a different story.

Personally I would put more money if I could in at this time,.... my tax refund went in in March into bank stocks,... which are the ones that I predicted would lead the rally, they were hit the hardest and had the worst confidence (unfairly in some ways). I double my money for what will be a very nice summer vacation,....

The stress tests are forcing banks to sell more stock, hurting their current prices,... which is crap (in my opinion), since the test is for a very unlikely scenario and just a predictor of what the banks may need to be ok. At this time they are ok and don't need to sell new stock,.... and they wouldn't if it wasn't for the government forcing their hand.

Anyways,.. my 2 cents,... remember the main thing about investing is not trying to time the market (impossible on a regular basis), it is to first identify your goals for the investments and invest accordingly.
 
Originally posted by: Alienwho
I got in mid-March and turned $2,000 into $3,000 thanks to $10 GE and DOW.

i bought bac at $5 and c and 2.5, i'm hoping that in a year i'll be able to pay off all my college debt, right now i can do about 1/2
 
anyways i think the op (wsj) is basically little more than a conspiracy theory. The market was in the tank so bad, particularly banks, because of the threat of nationalization and the investors getting wiped out. That's off the table now, confidence is up, the mid-term future is looking better, etc. I think the market might drop back into the high-7000's, but i think that in broad terms this is a legitimate rally, and we might see 10k dow by christmas.
 
Bump. in part so i don't have to make a new thread today. Futures are down by about 200, the worst they have been in months.
 
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Bump. in part so i don't have to make a new thread today. Futures are down by about 200, the worst they have been in months.

Chinese market down nearly 6% today and well as the rest of the world tanking. The 50% retracement from the lows seems to be the technical level resistance that is going to send it down. Consumer sentiment also kicking it in the nuts.

Japan emergenced from recession today following France and Germany. Did it on the strength of exports. Seems like those that make more than they consume are doing better than the consumption economies (IMO).
 
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Bump. in part so i don't have to make a new thread today. Futures are down by about 200, the worst they have been in months.

Chinese market down nearly 6% today and well as the rest of the world tanking. The 50% retracement from the lows seems to be the technical level resistance that is going to send it down. Consumer sentiment also kicking it in the nuts.

Japan emergenced from recession today following France and Germany. Did it on the strength of exports. Seems like those that make more than they consume are doing better than the consumption economies (IMO).
There are concerns about sustainability. I think that germany, france, japan have been positive in huge part by gov stimulus spending, somewhat akin to me getting a paycut at work and making up the difference with cash advances on my credit card. Or at least if you take out the gov stimulus, the GDP numbers would be negative, anyway.

Futures are -156 now, so up. Course you never know, the market could close up today but it's not likely.

 
I had also heard a lot of the market runup has been on low volume. Basically institutional investors swapping shares. All it would take is one to balk and it can come crashing down due to a low amount of buyers.

/shrug
 
Interesting. I'm actually still completely divested of equity and am looking for when to get back in. Really must learn to stop trying to time the market at its lowest and just invest-and-forget.
 
Good bump. This could finally be the start of the C wave -- the total wipeout that takes us to new lows. Only 15% invested in stocks right now and have missed most of this suckers rally. The level of bullishness on TV financial shows as well as the broader market against the backdrop of lack of topline demand (most companies' 2Q09 beats were due to major cost cutting, not revenue growth), near 10% unemployment, and parabolic upward trajectories of both extended and emergency unemployment rolls (both of which are NOT counted in continuing claims) is unjustified. All of this suggests this market cannot support current valuations, and will become obvious when 3Q reporting season starts.
 
Originally posted by: yllus
Interesting. I'm actually still completely divested of equity and am looking for when to get back in. Really must learn to stop trying to time the market at its lowest and just invest-and-forget.
I tried that but now more sitting tight. There is so much BS and misinformation plus the historical novelty of a vast amount of government intervention that the professionals are all running around like headless chickens, which must mean that people like me are even worse. I knew if I kept waiting, though, I'd never get in. I'm mostly just aiming for a specific mix and ignoring the daily noise, except for a tiny brokerage account I've played with.

 
As of 10:25 (my numbers are delayed 15 min) it looks like the dow is down less than 2%. Two percent is a bad day for sure, but in light of all the bad news and the way the markets have been for the last couple of years, seems like 2% is managable.

If it baloons to 6%, or if we drop another 2% tomorrow and 1-2% on Wednesday...
 
I dollar cost average, and this last 9 months has been awesome for me. I never got out. In fact, I upped my buys by 15% last Dec.
 
Originally posted by: blackangst1
I dollar cost average, and this last 9 months has been awesome for me. I never got out. In fact, I upped my buys by 15% last Dec.
Of course if you start at the bottom and keep buying long you'll do well.

 
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: blackangst1
I dollar cost average, and this last 9 months has been awesome for me. I never got out. In fact, I upped my buys by 15% last Dec.
Of course if you start at the bottom and keep buying long you'll do well.

I buy no matter what the market does 😉 That way I always come out ahead.
 
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