Double Standards: Agent Orange

[Phuz]

Approximately 20 million gallons of the chemical was used in Vietnam between 1962 and 1971.
Agent Orange was subsequently found to be contaminated with a highly toxic and environmentally persistent compound, Dioxin.
Thousands of American servicemen were exposed.
Vietnam's government estimates there are 1 million victims of Agent Orange among its 76 million people, including war veterans who were directly doused and civilians who live in affected areas as well as the children of both.

Human exposure lead to:
Chloracne or other acneform disease consistent with chloracne. (Must occur within one year of exposure to Agent Orange).
Hodgkin?s disease.
Multiple myeloma.
Non-Hodgkin?s lymphoma.
Acute and subacute peripheral neuropathy. (For purposes of this section, the term acute and subacute peripheral neuropathy means temporary peripheral neuropathy that appears within weeks or months of exposure to an herbicide agent and resolves within two years of the date of onset.)
Porphyria cutanea tarda. (Must occur within one year of exposure to Agent Orange).
Prostate cancer.
Respiratory cancers (cancer of the lung, bronchus, larynx, or trachea). (Must occur within 30 years of exposure to Agent Orange).
Soft-tissue sarcoma (other than osteosarcoma, chondrosarcoma, Kaposi?s sarcoma, or mesothelioma).

 

[Tates]

Wrong war, and as you stated, it was subsequently found to be harmful.

What's your point?

 

[CaptnKirk]

Irrelevant, unless that's whats found in those mystery barrels.
Most likely "Double Standard' ordanance is expended DU rounds.
Uranium oxides and dust will linger there for centuries.

 

[Phuz]

Uh, yes, it was found to be subsequent, meaning.. after the fact, it was found to be harmful.
Defn' - Subsequently: Following in time or order; succeeding.

Irrelevant, because the US never used chemical weapons, right?

 

[Nitemare]

hind site is 20/20

Your point is?

 

[BDawg]

My wife, who works at the VA, says they also attribute diabetes to Agent Orange.

 

[Kadarin]

Agent Orange was used as a defoliant. Chemical and biological weapons such as mustard gas, sarin, anthrax, and others are specifically designed and targeted to disable or kill humans.

 

[drewshin]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
Agent Orange was used as a defoliant. Chemical and biological weapons such as mustard gas, sarin, anthrax, and others are specifically designed and targeted to disable or kill humans.

im sure they used agent orange in such a way that it just killed the plants and ran away from any humans it saw. then it conveniently degraded into beautiful flowers.


i wonder which is the lesser evil? killing someone in half an hour with sarin/vx, or letting them suffer side effects for the rest of their life? i dont know the answer to this one, it's just rhetorical.

 

[jaeger66]

Originally posted by: Nitemare
hind site is 20/20

"hind site"? Ugh.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: drewshin

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
Agent Orange was used as a defoliant. Chemical and biological weapons such as mustard gas, sarin, anthrax, and others are specifically designed and targeted to disable or kill humans.

im sure they used agent orange in such a way that it just killed the plants and ran away from any humans it saw. then it conveniently degraded into beautiful flowers.


i wonder which is the lesser evil? killing someone in half an hour with sarin/vx, or letting them suffer side effects for the rest of their life? i dont know the answer to this one, it's just rhetorical.

I am not condoning the use of Agent Orange, I am merely stating that there was a difference in intent, which is all the difference in the world.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: drewshin

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
Agent Orange was used as a defoliant. Chemical and biological weapons such as mustard gas, sarin, anthrax, and others are specifically designed and targeted to disable or kill humans.

im sure they used agent orange in such a way that it just killed the plants and ran away from any humans it saw. then it conveniently degraded into beautiful flowers.


i wonder which is the lesser evil? killing someone in half an hour with sarin/vx, or letting them suffer side effects for the rest of their life? i dont know the answer to this one, it's just rhetorical.

Agent orange wasn't dumped on the viet cong as a way to make them suffer. Hell, the U.S. troops that loaded up the sprayers hardly wore any protection. It just wasn't realized at the time that it was a terrible carcinogen.

 

[drewshin]

Originally posted by: rudder

Originally posted by: drewshin

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
Agent Orange was used as a defoliant. Chemical and biological weapons such as mustard gas, sarin, anthrax, and others are specifically designed and targeted to disable or kill humans.

im sure they used agent orange in such a way that it just killed the plants and ran away from any humans it saw. then it conveniently degraded into beautiful flowers.


i wonder which is the lesser evil? killing someone in half an hour with sarin/vx, or letting them suffer side effects for the rest of their life? i dont know the answer to this one, it's just rhetorical.

Agent orange wasn't dumped on the viet cong as a way to make them suffer. Hell, the U.S. troops that loaded up the sprayers hardly wore any protection. It just wasn't realized at the time that it was a terrible carcinogen.

exactly, if they didnt know its effects why were they using it, if they knew that many civilians could be affected? the u.s. used it, because it was they felt they had to do regardless of consequences, going to back to the original question of double standards.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: drewshin

Originally posted by: rudder

Originally posted by: drewshin

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
Agent Orange was used as a defoliant. Chemical and biological weapons such as mustard gas, sarin, anthrax, and others are specifically designed and targeted to disable or kill humans.

im sure they used agent orange in such a way that it just killed the plants and ran away from any humans it saw. then it conveniently degraded into beautiful flowers.


i wonder which is the lesser evil? killing someone in half an hour with sarin/vx, or letting them suffer side effects for the rest of their life? i dont know the answer to this one, it's just rhetorical.

Agent orange wasn't dumped on the viet cong as a way to make them suffer. Hell, the U.S. troops that loaded up the sprayers hardly wore any protection. It just wasn't realized at the time that it was a terrible carcinogen.

exactly, if they didnt know its effects why were they using it, if they knew that many civilians could be affected? the u.s. used it, because it was they felt they had to do regardless of consequences, going to back to the original question of double standards.

it was a defoliant. they did not spray the stuff on cities. It was intended for parts of the jungle that the growth was very thick. They were using it because it was effective in killing plants. The enemy hides beneath those jungle plants. If the cover is gone, its easier to see the enemy. Agent orange in itself was not a weapon. Just as you spray chemicals on the weeds in your yard, the military sprayed the jungles. In both instances the thought that there might be carcinogens present doesn't cross your mind. A totally different situation than using nerve gas.

 

[kylebisme]

not totaly rudder, like drewshin said; the u.s. used it, because it was they felt they had to do regardless of consequences.

 

[bookster]

This has to be one of the most ignorant things I?ve read about this war so far. Saying the US used Agent Orange as a chemical weapon is like saying that all the construction firms that used asbestos back years ago were waging chemical warfare on everyone.

 

[bsobel]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
not totaly rudder, like drewshin said; the u.s. used it, because it was they felt they had to do regardless of consequences.

You can't even read can you? By defintion they didn't do it 'regardless of consequences' when at the time they didn't know of any consequences.

Bill

 

[TheShiz]

Originally posted by: bookster
This has to be one of the most ignorant things I?ve read about this war so far. Saying the US used Agent Orange as a chemical weapon is like saying that all the construction firms that used asbestos back years ago were waging chemical warfare on everyone.

"When we (military scientists) initiated the herbicide program in the
1960s, we were aware of the potential for damage due to dioxin
contamination in the herbicide. We were even aware that the 'military'
formulation had a higher dioxin concentration than the 'civilian'
version due to the lower cost and speed of manufacture. However,
because the material was to be used on the 'enemy,' none of us were
overly concerned. We never considered a scenario in which our own
personnel would become contaminated with the herbicide."

quoted by Admiral Elmo R. Zumwalt, 1990

link to quote in article

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: bsobel

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
not totaly rudder, like drewshin said; the u.s. used it, because it was they felt they had to do regardless of consequences.

You can't even read can you? By defintion they didn't do it 'regardless of consequences' when at the time they didn't know of any consequences.

Bill

yes i can read, can you say "ignorance is no excuse"?

 

[Stark]

it's started... we find chemical weapons in iraq, and immediately people start blaming the US.

So what if it's for something that happened over 20 years ago... they just need to blame the US. If we found a fully functional nuke, we'd hear arguments about the double standard of Hiroshima.

Guess what, liberalized dummies, the US has more WMD than anyone in the history of the Earth, and our track record (with few exceptions) is amazingly good. If we wanted to kill our enemies with chemicals or biological agents, WE COULD. If we wanted to nuke them, WE COULD. Fortunately, the way our Democratic Republic is set up, there is little chance that some madman will gain control over these weapons (go ahead and make your Bush jokes now). When we say we are destroying our WMD (nuclear reduction), we make it clear to anyone who's interested that we're actually doing it.

There IS a double standard because not all countries in the world are like us. That IS fair. Stalin (Saddam's personal idol) was hellbent on starting WW3 until he was killed by his own internal security. Dictators do not get to play by the same rules as Democracies. If you have a problem with that, well, you have some serious issues to work on.

You'd think the fact that ANYONE is alive in Baghdad right now would be proof that we're pretty good when it comes to holding back when war is at hand. But no, let's talk about Vietnam and how much we all hate the President.

 

[alexruiz]

Originally posted by: rudder

Originally posted by: drewshin

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
Agent Orange was used as a defoliant. Chemical and biological weapons such as mustard gas, sarin, anthrax, and others are specifically designed and targeted to disable or kill humans.

im sure they used agent orange in such a way that it just killed the plants and ran away from any humans it saw. then it conveniently degraded into beautiful flowers.


i wonder which is the lesser evil? killing someone in half an hour with sarin/vx, or letting them suffer side effects for the rest of their life? i dont know the answer to this one, it's just rhetorical.

Agent orange wasn't dumped on the viet cong as a way to make them suffer. Hell, the U.S. troops that loaded up the sprayers hardly wore any protection. It just wasn't realized at the time that it was a terrible carcinogen.

Remember the words that I bolded when "further" research on depleted uranium is done...

 

[RossGr]

If you are going to talk about ancient history why not point out that the US pioneered biological warfare and in doing so committed geniocide. Of course I am speaking of smallpox infected blankets being given to the native Americans. Our ancestors are guilty of a genicide like none other known to man. We totally annihilated the Native American culture and many tribes simply ceased to exist.

My point is this has as much to do with today as Vietnam does, it is history and cannot be taken back, all we can do is learn from our mistakes. The Vietnam war was a mistake, perhaps if we had the knowledge and technology then that we have today it would have been different, but that is 20/20 hindsite and pretty pointless.

 

[her209]

So why didn't the military do some research in regards to human ingestion?

 

[Sxotty]

Agent orange is not a chemical weapon and never was. People should be smarter than that. It is like saying we are commiting chemical warefare by putting fertilzer on crops, some environmentalists might believe it but it is saving lives of people who would starve to death.

Agent orange was dumped into US rivers like the passaic in New Jersey.
River

Agent orange was used in the US by regular people as well, it was not until later as you stated so clearly that they figured out how harmful it was. Now you can see why new products take so long to get to market in the current times, b/c we have had enough experiences to show us that slopping some stuff together and showing it does what you want does not mean it doesn't do something else as well.

 

[Tiger]

Ditto Stark.

 

[Phuz]

Learn how to take responsibility, people.