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Double Murder Conviction for Man Who Helped Girlfriend Miscarry

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Originally posted by: cKGunslinger


Umm.. apparently you *don't* need a doctor to rid yourslef of a fetus, but if you don't use one, then you can be convicted of murder, whereas the doctor could not be.

What is it that you don't understand about this situation?? 😕

The only reason this situation exists because wing-nut legislatures like Texas (home to modern conservativism) pass laws that criminilize things like this. These laws are about pleasing constituencies like yourself who then use the disastrous consequences of events like this to use as a moral device.
"See, he caused her to abort her fetus and its MURDER." Well, ya, its only murder cause the dumb ass state of Texas defined it as murder!!
 
Originally posted by: nutxo
What a load of crap. He didnt kill anything but tissue according to the law. If they wanna prosecute for assault on the female it would be different.

Not to mention it gives men an out. Don't wana be a father? Punch her in the gut and get probation, but at least no child support for 18 years.

That would be assault.

He's in a terrable situation because of all the stupid laws passed by the Texas legislature. Its stupid to give rights to a fetus and its stupid to restrict abortions after 16 weeks to hospitals, where it costs tons more $$$ than a clinic.
Perhaps if abortion was more accessible and there were less hurdles set up by anti-choicers, none of this would have happened.
I agree with everything here. Whats there to defend about this guy? Perhaps the fact that he hasn't committed a crime?

The question is why the rampant pro choice ACLU liberals aren't here to defend him.
 
Originally posted by: zendari

He's in a terrable situation because of all the stupid laws passed by the Texas legislature. Its stupid to give rights to a fetus and its stupid to restrict abortions after 16 weeks to hospitals, where it costs tons more $$$ than a clinic.
Perhaps if abortion was more accessible and there were less hurdles set up by anti-choicers, none of this would have happened.
I agree with everything here. Whats there to defend about this guy? Perhaps the fact that he hasn't committed a crime?

The question is why the rampant pro choice ACLU liberals aren't here to defend him.

lol, i don't know if you're reading me right, but I am defending the guy. What he did was pretty stupid, but there's no way he should go to prision for this.
 
Originally posted by: zendari
Originally posted by: nutxo
What a load of crap. He didnt kill anything but tissue according to the law. If they wanna prosecute for assault on the female it would be different.

Not to mention it gives men an out. Don't wana be a father? Punch her in the gut and get probation, but at least no child support for 18 years.

That would be assault.

He's in a terrable situation because of all the stupid laws passed by the Texas legislature. Its stupid to give rights to a fetus and its stupid to restrict abortions after 16 weeks to hospitals, where it costs tons more $$$ than a clinic.
Perhaps if abortion was more accessible and there were less hurdles set up by anti-choicers, none of this would have happened.
I agree with everything here. Whats there to defend about this guy? Perhaps the fact that he hasn't committed a crime?

The question is why the rampant pro choice ACLU liberals aren't here to defend him.

Whether she gave permission to be hit or not, its assualt. She doent have to press charges, The state may whether she likes it or not. Thats how they manage to convict spousal abusers when the wife refuses to press charges.


My post above was partially sarcasm.
 
Originally posted by: nutxo
Originally posted by: zendari
Originally posted by: nutxo
What a load of crap. He didnt kill anything but tissue according to the law. If they wanna prosecute for assault on the female it would be different.

Not to mention it gives men an out. Don't wana be a father? Punch her in the gut and get probation, but at least no child support for 18 years.

That would be assault.

He's in a terrable situation because of all the stupid laws passed by the Texas legislature. Its stupid to give rights to a fetus and its stupid to restrict abortions after 16 weeks to hospitals, where it costs tons more $$$ than a clinic.
Perhaps if abortion was more accessible and there were less hurdles set up by anti-choicers, none of this would have happened.
I agree with everything here. Whats there to defend about this guy? Perhaps the fact that he hasn't committed a crime?

The question is why the rampant pro choice ACLU liberals aren't here to defend him.

Whether she gave permission to be hit or not, its assualt. She doent have to press charges, The state may whether she likes it or not. Thats how they manage to convict spousal abusers when the wife refuses to press charges.


My post above was partially sarcasm.

Meh, if the wife testifies for the husband I don't know how far that will go.

Men punching women is the stomach (whether she gave permission or not) is simply a side effect of a pro choice law. Interesting loophole for sure, I never thought of it.
 
Originally posted by: jahawkin
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger


Umm.. apparently you *don't* need a doctor to rid yourslef of a fetus, but if you don't use one, then you can be convicted of murder, whereas the doctor could not be.

What is it that you don't understand about this situation?? 😕

The only reason this situation exists because wing-nut legislatures like Texas (home to modern conservativism) pass laws that criminilize things like this. These laws are about pleasing constituencies like yourself who then use the disastrous consequences of events like this to use as a moral device.
"See, he caused her to abort her fetus and its MURDER." Well, ya, its only murder cause the dumb ass state of Texas defined it as murder!!

What exactly are you arguing? I've not made a stance on abortion either way in this thread.

Let me make this a bit more clear: It is stupid and hypocritical that this guy was convicted of murder for helping to perform an "abortion" on a willing participant, whereas an abortion doctor would not be brought up on charges. If an abortion doctor were brought up on murder charges, the ACLU and every other pro-choicer would be picketing and filing lawsuits left and right and doing whatever they could to "save" the doctor who was respecting the woman's right to choose, yet where are they now? Do you see them rallying around behind this guy?

This is not about abortion laws, or Texas, or anything else you want it to be. It's about the obvious hypocricy of the majority of pro-choice supporters.
 
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

What exactly are you arguing? I've not made a stance on abortion either way in this thread.

Let me make this a bit more clear: It is stupid and hypocritical that this guy was convicted of murder for helping to perform an "abortion" on a willing participant, whereas an abortion doctor would not be brought up on charges. If an abortion doctor were brought up on murder charges, the ACLU and every other pro-choicer would be picketing and filing lawsuits left and right and doing whatever they could to "save" the doctor who was respecting the woman's right to choose, yet where are they now? Do you see them rallying around behind this guy?

This is not about abortion laws, or Texas, or anything else you want it to be. It's about the obvious hypocricy of the majority of pro-choice supporters.

Yes, I agree that its stupid to charge this guy with murder. Abortion is a medical procedure and therefore should be performed by doctors.
Do you understand that he is being charged with murder because Texas passed a law defining this as murder and the local prosecuter is a bit zealous to say the least?
The reason they did this was to please anti-choice people like yourself (albeit those who live in Texas). Its the same reason they pass laws that require 24 hour waiting periods, mandating that the patients must be shown pics of aborted fetuses (both requirements in Texas). The girl wanted to have an abortion, but the only medical option available to her was too expensive - her being a 17yr old and all. So she took to the do it yourself option. Had many obsticles not been put in place to prevent her from getting an abortion, perhaps this situation would have never happened. But the republicans don't want to keep abortion accessable, so things like this happen. So yes, this is about abortion laws and Texas.

There is no hypocricy on the part of the ACLU or liberals. Our position is consistent. Keep abortion safe, legal and accessable. Therefore, we are against laws like this to begin with. We are against putting women in situtaions like these, where they have to resort to hitting themsleves. Do you think making abortion illegal will cut down on situations like these?? I think not.
 
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

This is not about abortion laws, or Texas, or anything else you want it to be. It's about the obvious hypocricy of the majority of pro-choice supporters.


I'm strongly pro-choice and I don't think my position is hypocritical at all. I've suggested a "crime" (practicing medicine without a license) in this thread which is the only one for which Flores could reasonably be considered liable (assuming his belly-stomping was performed in accordance with his girlfriend's wishes). And by questioning how two parties to the same act can be treated so vastly differently under Texas law, I'm indicating that this prosecution (and conviction) was grossly unjust.

I wouldn't be surprised if this case gets appealed, and the ACLU may well get involved.
 
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

This is not about abortion laws, or Texas, or anything else you want it to be. It's about the obvious hypocricy of the majority of pro-choice supporters.


I'm strongly pro-choice and I don't think my position is hypocritical at all. I've suggested a "crime" (practicing medicine without a license) in this thread which is the only one for which Flores could reasonably be considered liable (assuming his belly-stomping was performed in accordance with his girlfriend's wishes). And by questioning how two parties to the same act can be treated so vastly differently under Texas law, I'm indicating that this prosecution (and conviction) was grossly unjust.

I wouldn't be surprised if this case gets appealed, and the ACLU may well get involved.

And I'm agreeing with you... but where is the typical and expected outrage?
 
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: Genx87
Yes, this is the hypocrisy the courts have shown on this issue.

She goes to the slaughterhouse and it is completely legal.


How can it be possible that two people cooperate to accomplish the exact same result, and one is a murderer and the other hasn't committed a crime?

It is what happens when someone tries to defend the indefensible.

Most people don't deny that some abortion should be legal. Most people do agree that abortion on demand or for convenience or whatever you wish to call it should not be legal.

However, I agree that any law that allows a woman to kill her child should also allow anyone else to kill her child since the law says the matter in the woman is not a life.

What would be interesting is had she been severely injured would she have a tort case against him? Just because someone asks someone else to commit a crime does not excuse them from prosecution.
 
However, I agree that any law that allows a woman to kill her child should also allow anyone else to kill her child since the law says the matter in the woman is not a life.
Yes. I've made a thread on this in the past, and it's a totally indefensible position, as you state.

My thread centered around the unique case of a woman being able to terminate the life within her, legally, and yet if you do something like kick her stomach and the fetus dies, you're charged with murder. There is a special window of time during which the mother is able to play god and terminate the fetus, but nobody else is. On the one hand the law says it's a meaningless mass of flesh that can be killed at whim, and on the other hand it's a bona fide human being and killing it is murder.

Obviously others have noticed this. I recall a chart and on it it showed the different window of time, based on different state laws, during which killing the fetus was not murder for the mother only, but was for others.

It's patently irrational and makes no sense. Such is the case of law not reflecting common sense, as it should.

The only thing this guy did was practice an abortion without a medical license. He could have brought her to the hospital, paid the bill to the doc, and had those fetuses killed, and yet when he does the same thing it's murder. So in essense we see that a medical license allows a doctor to kill the two kids, but if you don't have one you can't. License to kill. I see so many holes in the logic of charging this guy that if he's actually convicted it will be a total breach of "justice", even if it's by-the-book.

And for the record I'm mostly against abortion, but I don't let that blind me from logic, as this charge is blinded.
 
Interesting anomaly...

I think this is a win win situation though. Right of choice remains, but sends a message to dumbasses attempting to abort without medical licenses and kicking their gf's. Hopefully from this experience it will never happen again.
 
Originally posted by: Stunt
Interesting anomaly...

I think this is a win win situation though. Right of choice remains, but sends a message to dumbasses attempting to abort without medical licenses and kicking their gf's. Hopefully from this experience it will never happen again.

Except for the guy who is in jail.

It seems that kicking is both free and effective.
 

#1 anyone who thinks this guy still deserved what he got because what he did was dangerous, stupid, etc.. should be killed, you don't just hand out random punishments for behaviour you don't agree with. What the **** is that? "oh, man that was so dumb what you did. Hmmm, LIFE SENTENCE CUZ I FEEL LIKE IT" doesn't work that way, die die die, or "he won the lottery but oh man he was such a jerk to his wife! he shouldn't get penny" DIE DIE DIE, the legal system isn't ruled by your whim
#2 I thought abortion was legal because the fetus wasn't a human life yet, so therefore all that stuff in the constitution that would protect life is completely irrelevant. So how do you get someone charged with murder of a human life then. makes no sense. Or maybe you're a moron and think "it is a human life, but it's still part of the womens body, so she has a choice" but she allowed him to do it, and this is then no different from allowing someone to say cut off one of our fingers, stupid for sure, but I'm pretty sure you could legally allow it. How do you think amputations are legal?
 
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