DoS squirms around issue of Israel crushing Palestinian nonviolent activism

[JEDIYoda]

That depends on how one defines such interests. I consider a two-state solution on the basis of international law in the best interests of both Israelis and Palestinians, In which case there's far more Arabs promoting such interests than Jews.

-- International law...rofl....your kidding right?? never happen on the basis of pro-Palestinian international law!!

I'd be happy to answer your question if you'd first be so kind as to answer my question from the OP:--your to dense to understand that your question has been answered over and over again......

 

[SamurAchzar]

That depends on how one defines such interests. I consider a two-state solution on the basis of international law in the best interests of both Israelis and Palestinians, In which case there's far more Arabs promoting such interests than Jews.

I think the same, but for that someone must assure West Bank will not turn into a 2nd Gaza, with Hamas in control and rockets flying into Tel Aviv.

..does anyone here believe that crushing Palestinian nonviolent activism is in US interests, and if so, how?

It is not, but neither is endorsing it. Basically it's an entirely domestic Israeli interest. With Korea on the brink of a war, perhaps DoS should look into other matters.

 

[kylebisme]

What purpose to you believe crushing Palestinian nonviolent activism serves for the people of Israel? Best I can tell, it only serves to inspire violence, which is only in the interest of the few who engage in war profiteering through such conflicts, while the rest of us would be far better off supporting peaceful forms of conflict resolution.

 

[Lemon law]

To Kylebisme and others anandd tech posters, to some extent we all think our logic will drive the Mid-east debate.

But to some extent what is unraveling at the speed of light is the Israeli argument that the Palestinians are inherently violent, therefore subhuman, and thus we all must thank the Israeli State for assuming the white man's burden. Its an age old assertion, and to a large extent, the USA is the only nation on earth that still buys Israeli propaganda.

And worse yet, Israel may be in a giant heap of trobs when and if the international community starts demanding the release of non violent Palestinians activists.

A Gandhi, a Nelson Mandella, a Martin Luther King always pack more moral force than the mightiest militarists on earth. The entire Israeli position may unravel when the Palestinians have their Gandhi.

 

[kylebisme]

The Israeli government's position has always been to take Palestinian "Gandhis" and imprison, torture, deport or murder them; and that situation won't unravel as long as our government continues to turn a blind eye to it.

 

[soccerballtux]

The mod discussion forum is only accessible to mods, so I can't rightly take the issue there. Regardless, you slandered me and drew a flagrantly false equivalence between my comments and Sinsear's here, so here is where I responded.


I despise the delusional rantings of partisan dolts. I"m no liberal, nor a fan of Obama. Are you too out of your gourd to even comprehend the fact that Obama is responsible for the Sate Department policy I'm criticising here?

He is? I guess I am.
I apologize, I'm just anti-everything-in-favor-of-bigass-government.

 

[kylebisme]

Heh, I sympathise with your frustration, I'm no fan of big government either. And yeah, the State Department is part of the Executive Branch, so Obama controls their policy.

 

[5150Joker]

The Israeli government's position has always been to take Palestinian "Gandhis" and imprison, torture, deport or murder them; and that situation won't unravel as long as our government continues to turn a blind eye to it.

When you have a nation built on the basis of divine entitlement then it's no surprise to see that sort of behavior. Israel always talks about preserving it's Jewish character and it will do whatever it takes to achieve that no matter how morally objectionable. Once US support dries up due to the US no longer being able to finance Israel's bad behavior, the world will eventually reign them in. I don't think China has much love for Israel, they value MidEastern oil at cheap prices much more. And unfortunately for Ashkenazis like Samur and Yoda, there's no dual citizenship or powerful Israeli lobbyists in Communist China. Enjoy sucking on the American teat while it lasts fellas.

 

[SamurAchzar]

When you have a nation built on the basis of divine entitlement then it's no surprise to see that sort of behavior. Israel always talks about preserving it's Jewish character and it will do whatever it takes to achieve that no matter how morally objectionable. Once US support dries up due to the US no longer being able to finance Israel's bad behavior, the world will eventually reign them in. I don't think China has much love for Israel, they value MidEastern oil at cheap prices much more. And unfortunately for Ashkenazis like Samur and Yoda, there's no dual citizenship or powerful Israeli lobbyists in Communist China. Enjoy sucking on the American teat while it lasts fellas.

Lets put things into perspective: the American financing is about 1/5th of the Israeli security budget, and effectively much smaller because it has to be spent in US, even causing Israeli companies to manufacture military items in USA just so that the IDF can purchase their products in aid money. The majority of the money is spent with US companies (such as Lockheed, for the latest F35 deal). IDF has nearly no EU-made weapon systems, everything is American for a good reason.

Let's also remember that a nearly identical aid is provided to Egypt.

Now, I somehow suspect that before US withdraws this assistance to Israel, it will back off the Korean peninsula, Iraq and Afghanistan. Buying such a strong ally such as Israel is quite a bargain for this money.

Even if US withdrew the aid to Israel tomorrow, again it's 1/5th of Israel's defense budget. Israel has excellent military technologies and products which many countries are looking to buy but can't be sold due to US interests today, that could change (e.g. Phalcon radar which is said to be superior to anything else out there, at least at the time it was supposed to be sold to China).

If anything, I see the support of US to Israel only growing. Muslim terrorism coupled a nuclear Iran mean US - both public and operatives - will want to keep Israel strong.

Once US support dries up due to the US no longer being able to finance Israel's bad behavior, the world will eventually reign them in

I found the above to be hilarious in light of Obama being the only one reigned in, by his own party and the Congress, after taking an aggressive stance with Israel. Just goes to show how deep Israel runs in American politics.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Kyle, take up the issue of moderation in the Mod discussion forum; not in this thread

The mod discussion forum is only accessible to mods, so I can't rightly take the issue there. Regardless, you slandered me and drew a flagrantly false equivalence between my comments and Sinsear's here, so here is where I responded.

Moderator Discussion Forums

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This forum is to be used for contacting our team of moderators about moderation related issues only. Think of this forum as the new AnandTech Moderator account.

Please do not use this forum to ask general knowledge questions or to make suggestions about our forums. Please use the Forum Issues forums for that.

 

[kylebisme]

the American financing is about 1/5th of the Israeli security budget, and effectively much smaller because it has to be spent in US, even causing Israeli companies to manufacture military items in USA

The aid we give to Israel is effectively even larger per dollar, because unlike any other country, we give Israel all the cash up front rather than diving it out over the year, and only require Israel to spend 3/4 of that military funding in the US, letting the rest go to bolster Israeli industry instead. As for your claim of Israeli companies manufacture military items in USA, I don't know of any notable examples, do you?

Let's also remember that a nearly identical aid is provided to Egypt.

Rather, on top of the 3 billion a year we give Israel directly, we give another we spend another 2 billion a year to prop up the Israel friendly tin-pot dictatorship in Egypt.

 

[SamurAchzar]

The aid we give to Israel is effectively even larger per dollar, because unlike any other country, we give Israel all the cash up front rather than diving it out over the year, and only require Israel to spend 3/4 of that military funding in the US, letting the rest go to bolster Israeli industry instead. As for your claim of Israeli companies manufacture military items in USA, I don't know of any notable examples, do you?

AFAIK all the top Israeli defense manufacturers have US branches, namely Elbit, Rafael, IAI - but I personally know of smaller ones as well. Simply put, if you don't manufacture on US soil you're out of a large part of IDF procurement.

Rather, on top of the 3 billion a year we give Israel directly, we give another we spend another 2 billion a year to prop up the Israel friendly tin-pot dictatorship in Egypt.

This is a very simplistic way to look at it, Kyle. The truth is that this aid dates back to the peace accords between Egypt and Israel, and mainly intended to bring Egypt out from the sphere of influence of the USSR. From being a very large USSR customer, Egypt turned to American hardware.

There's a very strong interest for having stability in Egypt, mostly unrelated to Israeli interests specifically (Suez Canal would be one example, their influence in the Arab league is another). No one wants to see Egypt falling into the hands of the Muslim brotherhood, other than perhaps you.

 

[Lemon law]

Sammy is somewhat correct in saying, "There's a very strong interest for having stability in Egypt, mostly unrelated to Israeli interests specifically (Suez Canal would be one example, their influence in the Arab league is another). No one wants to see Egypt falling into the hands of the Muslim brotherhood, other than perhaps you."

And in turn, Egypt has been bribed by the USA and is largely the only Arab Nation that got any land returned, even if it was the worthless can't grow a weed Sinai desert.

But what Sammy talks about is what we got in those those heady days of the Oslo accords where some semblance of optimism remained. Even though both Rabin and Sadat were rather rapidly assassinated by their own countrymen..

Fast forward nearly 2 decades nearly two decades, and that Egyptian conversion has bought nothing. Mubarack, as Egyptian leader, is living on borrowed time, already Egypt is relaxing its embargo of Gaza in response to worldwide pressure against Israel, Turkey is expressing open hostility to Israeli actions when it was formally an Israeli ally, while the Mid-east remains a powder keg. At the same time Israel is increasingly being viewed, world wide, as the biggest Mid-east loose canon. Meanwhile Iraqi stability may be miles wide and less than an half inch deep while the house of Faud is far less stable than it looks.

All that adds up to a situation where its likely that the time is ripe for a new Nassar able to unite all the mid-east States. That new Nassar need not come from Egypt, but as US influence in the mid-east really drops because of the failures of this latest round of peace talks, Israel may be the nation to be most amazed as the new mid-east order changes into a far more hostile to Israel reality.

As the gains to mid-east stability purchased with the lives of Sadat and Rabin are written off as failed experiments.

 

[kylebisme]

There's a very strong interest for having stability in Egypt...

There's also one big reason for the threat of instability in Egypt, namely; Israel's ongoing conquest of Palestine, which infuriates the Egyptian population which is why we are forced to prop up the tin-pot dictatorship there to suppress. A two-state solution on the basis of international law would remove that threat of instability, and reduce the influence of the Muslim Brotherhood to facilitate reforming Egypt towards a free and democratic society.

 

[EagleKeeper]

There's also one big reason for the threat of instability in Egypt, namely; Israel's ongoing conquest of Palestine, which infuriates the Egyptian population which is why we are forced to prop up the tin-pot dictatorship there to suppress. A two-state solution on the basis of international law would remove that threat of instability, and reduce the influence of the Muslim Brotherhood to facilitate reforming Egypt towards a free and democratic society.

Is your two state solution building the Palstinian state around Hamas vision or the West bank vision?

How would you propose handling the outcast?

 

[SamurAchzar]

There's also one big reason for the threat of instability in Egypt, namely; Israel's ongoing conquest of Palestine, which infuriates the Egyptian population which is why we are forced to prop up the tin-pot dictatorship there to suppress. A two-state solution on the basis of international law would remove that threat of instability, and reduce the influence of the Muslim Brotherhood to facilitate reforming Egypt towards a free and democratic society.

Let's just set the historic record straight, OK? Gaza and the West Bank were annexed by Israel following the 1967 war, which followed nearly 20 years of Egyptian aggression towards Israel.

The problem of the Egyptians with Israel started in the 1920's, certainly not in 1967. I'm not saying the occupation helps Israel win the hearts of Muslims, but that's just another issue, not the main one. In other words, unless Jews are removed from Israel, there'll be an issue.

 

[Lemon law]

Let's just set the historic record straight, OK? Gaza and the West Bank were annexed by Israel following the 1967 war, which followed nearly 20 years of Egyptian aggression towards Israel.

The problem of the Egyptians with Israel started in the 1920's, certainly not in 1967. I'm not saying the occupation helps Israel win the hearts of Muslims, but that's just another issue, not the main one. In other words, unless Jews are removed from Israel, there'll be an issue.

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Which is why Sammy plays exactly the wrong song at this time.

In terms of military hegemony, any illusions by Arabs States that they could simply push Israelis into the sea ended by 1973.

And now the question more becomes, is Israel willing to make the correct set of concessions to the Arab States to demonstrate that Israel can be a valued and welcome neighbor in the mid-east? Israel certainly has some technology they can share to make the entire mid-east into a better place. At the same time surrounding Arab states can make Israel a better place.

Or will Israel insist on being the nasty neighbor no one in the neighborhood likes, because Israel has the military might to do what ever it wants. Which Israel seems to delight in doing now.

IMHO, Israeli stupidity in the extreme, at best short time sustainable, but given the huge population and oil money advantages Arab States have, long term Israeli military hegemony may be longer term unsustainable. Worse yet Israel makes itself international terrorism target #1. So we can ask how many years does Israel have left before international terrorism gains the technologies to go from mere annoyances to real threats?

 

[EagleKeeper]

International terrorism is sponsored by those that do not want Israel to exist PERIOD

Making a two state solution is not going to solve that issue.
The only thing a two state solution will do is force the Palestinians to grow up and be completly responsible for actions for within their state (unlike Hamas).

In terms of military hegemony, any illusions by Arabs States that they could simply push Israelis into the sea ended by 1973.

The Palestinians did not give up that illusion - they just continued where the Arab states left off.

The Israel military is what is preventing the Arab states from overrunning it. You still have the Arabs, some Islamic states and proxie militants thinking/dreaming that they can still conquer Israel and are willing to use any means at their disposal to do so.


It is the Palestinians that are their own worst enemy to having their own state due to they have refused to let Israel be in peace since the last gasp by the Arabs.

As long as the Palestinians are willing to allow their land to be used as an attack platform; Israel can not rest and the retaliation game will continue.

 

[Lemon law]

Only Common Courtesy could miss the ambiguities in his two Statements.

"The Palestinians did not give up that illusion - they just continued where the Arab states left off."

"The Israel military is what is preventing the Arab states from overrunning it. You still have the Arabs, some Islamic states and proxie militants thinking/dreaming that they can still conquer Israel and are willing to use any means at their disposal to do so."
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So in the first two sentences Common Courtesy basically admits that the Palestinians can't even hope to dent Israel with their large supply of rocks and bottles. And hence are inconsequential dangers to Israel. But then Common Courtesy proceeds to self elect himself as the spokesman for the universal mindset of the Palestinian people.

Then Common Courtesy then admits the real danger was and maybe still is the Arab States. And then glosses over the fact that Israel did and still does give Arab States many reasons to hate Israel and its existence next door. And not a single reason to like Israel as a neighbor.

Maybe a history lesson might be in order, and the Nation of France might be a good example. As France went through a revolution in 1789, and might have been assumed to be a basket case for many decades. Yet it only took a decade or so for France to reunite under Napoleon, and soon French armies had conquered much of Europe. There really wasn't a Germany then, because it was just then uniting from a collection of small principalities and into a united Nation. By 1815 Napoleon had met his waterloo, and by 1860 its was Germany that was kicking French butt and gaining territory. France and Germany had at it again in WW1, France barely escaped losing at the battle of the Marne. Come WW2, caused largely by the unfair peace of WW1 saw Germany conquer France first, and then a large part of Europe and into Egypt. But now, because far more just peace after WW2, finds Germany and France living in peace after going to war with each other for 4 times in a 140 years, as military hegemony shifted.

But now you want to assume that a tiny nation of less than 10 million people will maintain military hegemony over 275 million surrounding Arab forever? At exactly the same times Israel is losing allies and angering the international community. In the history of the world, 62 years is hardly any test of time.

When that final Epitaph is written of Israel, it might read, a noble idea that died of greed and stupidity.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Only Common Courtesy could miss the ambiguities in his two Statements.

"The Palestinians did not give up that illusion - they just continued where the Arab states left off."

"The Israel military is what is preventing the Arab states from overrunning it. You still have the Arabs, some Islamic states and proxie militants thinking/dreaming that they can still conquer Israel and are willing to use any means at their disposal to do so."
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So in the first two sentences Common Courtesy basically admits that the Palestinians can't even hope to dent Israel with their large supply of rocks and bottles. And hence are inconsequential dangers to Israel.

The problem is the Palestinians refuse to accept this and therefore choose to continue to attack the Israeli population which palces the civilians in danger. what is it going to accomplish but stiffen the Israeli resolve to not weaken herself with the Palestinians.

But then Common Courtesy proceeds to self elect himself as the spokesman for the universal mindset of the Palestinian people.

Then Common Courtesy then admits the real danger was and maybe still is the Arab States. And then glosses over the fact that Israel did and still does give Arab States many reasons to hate Israel and its existence next door. And not a single reason to like Israel as a neighbor.

Isreael's existance and the fact that she beat the Arabs every time is the problem. EGO. She exposed the inadequaticies of the Arab military might

Maybe a history lesson might be in order, and the Nation of France might be a good example. As France went through a revolution in 1789, and might have been assumed to be a basket case for many decades. Yet it only took a decade or so for France to reunite under Napoleon, and soon French armies had conquered much of Europe. There really wasn't a Germany then, because it was just then uniting from a collection of small principalities and into a united Nation. By 1815 Napoleon had met his waterloo, and by 1860 its was Germany that was kicking French butt and gaining territory. France and Germany had at it again in WW1, France barely escaped losing at the battle of the Marne. Come WW2, caused largely by the unfair peace of WW1 saw Germany conquer France first, and then a large part of Europe and into Egypt. But now, because far more just peace after WW2, finds Germany and France living in peace after going to war with each other for 4 times in a 140 years, as military hegemony shifted.

But now you want to assume that a tiny nation of less than 10 million people will maintain military hegemony over 275 million surrounding Arab forever? At exactly the same times Israel is losing allies and angering the international community. In the history of the world, 62 years is hardly any test of time.
Why can not the Palestinians and the militants agree that Israel should be allowed to exist without being attacked. She is not trying to control the area; but needs strength because the others want to destory her. Stop the attacks and you can have peace. But is peace desired?

When that final Epitaph is written of Israel, it might read, a noble idea that died of greed and stupidity.

Israel is not trying to take over the surrounding Arab nations. It was the surrounding nations that wanted to exterminate her. And on 3 fronts this still is the case. Lebanon/Hebollah, Syria, Gaza/Hamas. the o4th front is questionable; the West Bank either does not know what it wants or is unwilling to figure out how to get it.

 

[soccerballtux]

The mod discussion forum is only accessible to mods, so I can't rightly take the issue there. Regardless, you slandered me and drew a flagrantly false equivalence between my comments and Sinsear's here, so here is where I responded.


I despise the delusional rantings of partisan dolts. I"m no liberal, nor a fan of Obama. Are you too out of your gourd to even comprehend the fact that Obama is responsible for the Sate Department policy I'm criticising here?

Moderator Discussion Forums

What's wrong with peer review?

 

[kylebisme]

Let's just set the historic record straight, OK?

It would be nice if you could respect the historical record, but considering the fact that none of the claims in your post are accurate, you obviously have no interest in that.

 

[JEDIYoda]

What's wrong with peer review?

What buisness of yours is it?
Why are you always pushing the envelope?
You would hardly rate as a peer....