Doom3+OpenGL=bad news for ATI?

[Rob94hawk]

From what I've been reading nVidia does a better job with OpenGL than ATI. Does this mean the X800XT PE may take a big performance hit when playing this game?

 

[Lonyo]

It may just not perform as well as an nVidia card.
But suprise suprise, I think you should wait until people benchmark the damned game with the new cards!

 

[otispunkmeyer]

d3 is capped at 60fps any way im sure both top end cards wil be capable of that ie Nv may be able to push 120FPS at 1280x1024 and ATI may only manage 90 FPS at the same res...but either way both are over 60FPS and the game is capped at 60fps so it wont matter

(thats just an example by the way)

 

[blurredvision]

Originally posted by: otispunkmeyer
d3 is capped at 60fps any way im sure both top end cards wil be capable of that ie Nv may be able to push 120FPS at 1280x1024 and ATI may only manage 90 FPS at the same res...but either way both are over 60FPS and the game is capped at 60fps so it wont matter

(thats just an example by the way)

I'm sure there will be a way to unlock this cap id has instituted shortly after release anyhow. Otherwise, it's useless as a benchmark.

 

[jrphoenix]

Why would a software company cap how fast their game can run? I don't see a reason for doing this?

 

[Alkaline5]

Originally posted by: jrphoenix
Why would a software company cap how fast their game can run? I don't see a reason for doing this?

This has since been patched, but in the Q3 engine Carmack's physics were tied directly to the current framerate. Normally, this wouldn't make any difference, but at certain settings (com_maxfps "85" was one, IIRC) it resulted in rounding errors that allowed players to jump slightly higher, gaining an edge on certain maps (Q3DM13 Mega Health access, for example). There are probably other side effects, but that's the one I'm most familiar with.

Based on that, I've heard it suggested that: regardless of how many frames a card can produce, the D3 engine should never update its physics more than 60 times per second. (If nothing else, this ensures that the game experience is the same for everyone.) So if things in D3 are only moving 60 times a second, drawing more frames than that would be pointless.

No matter the reason for it, the 60-frame constraint shouldn't be necessary when running timedemos so hopefully D3 will still be a useful benchmark. (Similar to the way com_maxfps didn't limit timedemo runs.)

 

[Insomniak]

Not enough that you'll notice a difference. ATi's cards will still play the game just fine. No, they won't quite be as fast as Nvidia's, but who cares? You've got smooth frames and killer graphics. Life is good?

 

[MrPabulum]

Is not ATI completely rewriting their OpenGL drivers? Maybe the Cat. 4.8s will coincide with a Doom 3 release?

 

[Marsumane]

Originally posted by: blurredvision

Originally posted by: otispunkmeyer
d3 is capped at 60fps any way im sure both top end cards wil be capable of that ie Nv may be able to push 120FPS at 1280x1024 and ATI may only manage 90 FPS at the same res...but either way both are over 60FPS and the game is capped at 60fps so it wont matter

(thats just an example by the way)

I'm sure there will be a way to unlock this cap id has instituted shortly after release anyhow. Otherwise, it's useless as a benchmark.

I think there are builtin methods to benchmark the game. Based on this, id assume the cap would be lifted in those situations specifically for benchmarking. I just remember reading about the newly advanced builtin benchmark abilities of this game.

Also i have heard NV cards are a bit faster from game review sites that have reviewed it, but that its not like 25% faster or something that significant.

 

[klah]

http://pc.ign.com/articles/456/456054p1.html

At a recent NVIDIA Editors' Day, id Software CEO Todd Hollenshead announced that DOOM 3 will be capped to 60 frames per second in the rendering engine.

We checked with John Carmack himself about why DOOM 3 will be hard-capped at 60fps in the renderer, and he had this to say:

"The game tic simulation, including player movement, runs at 60hz, so if it rendered any faster, it would just be rendering identical frames. A fixed tic rate removes issues like Quake 3 had, where some jumps could only be made at certain framerates. In Doom, the same player inputs will produce the same motions, no matter what the framerate is."

 

[imported_TheCadMan]

I wonder if Doom 3 will see any benifit from the professional openGl cards like the quadro Fx 4000 as compared to the 6800u. The quadro 4000 already kills the 6800u in all other OpenGL Apps by double. Also the game was designed on the quadro's so i can only wonder.

 

[SickBeast]

But why 60FPS? Wouldn't 100FPS be beneficial for people running their monitor at 100hz?

 

[chsh1ca]

Only if they force OpenGL to render at 100Hz with VSync. Most games I've played prefer OpenGL rendering to 60Hz/60FPS.

 

[BFG10K]

Does this mean the X800XT PE may take a big performance hit when playing this game?

Carmack says NV40 cards edge the R420 cards but both play the game well.

I'm sure there will be a way to unlock this cap id has instituted shortly after release anyhow. Otherwise, it's useless as a benchmark.

Agreed.

 

[thegimp03]

"Only 60 fps...." This is pre-supposing that your computer will even be able to reach that level? Hehehe.

 

[clicknext]

Originally posted by: thegimp03
"Only 60 fps...." This is pre-supposing that your computer will even be able to reach that level? Hehehe.

lol, yeah, I bet the high end systems will only be around that level, and everything else lower.

 

[RussianSensation]

Maybe someone at ATI, for once, should actually optimize their drivers for 1 game.....

Just maybe ATI could do for Doom3 what Nvidia did for Far Cry and increase the performance with their drivers....oh dreams .....

Either way, I doubt any card will play this game at 1600x1200 4AA/8AF in the near future. But something tells me Doom 3 will look better than 99% of all games out there even at 800x600 with max details 0aa/0af.

 

[GeneralGrievous]

Just maybe ATI could do for Doom3 what Nvidia did for Far Cry and increase the performance with their drivers....oh dreams .....

You mean increase performance by lowering IQ? No thnx, at least for the x800 cards.

Either way, I doubt any card will play this game at 1600x1200 4AA/8AF in the near future.

Perhaps not. But if I can't pull off 1600x1200 with 16x AF I will be incrediby pissed and id will be getting a nasty email.

 

[Extrarius]

Originally posted by: Alkaline5
[...]So if things in D3 are only moving 60 times a second, drawing more frames than that would be pointless.[...]

Not quite true, because the positions of objects could be interpolated for drawing to make them look more smooth. In other words, if the object is at X=1 physics frame 1, and X=5 in physics frame 2, the display (if it were running at say 120 FPS) could show the object at X=1, X=3, then X=5

Also, what is up with the whole "ATI sucks at opengl" thing? I've never noticed any such thing, nor have I noticed nvidia doing worse at directX. In fact, IME ATI does better at opengl than d3d (or all games that I own that support both don't use directx right or something), so I'd say its not a definite rule at all.

 

[thegimp03]

I played one of the D3 betas on default settings (800x600) and it looked amazing - even though I was managing 20-30 fps. I can only imagine what it looks like with settings cranked up. Now that I see that it's capped at 60 fps, that doesn't make me feel too bad.

 

[ja83]

Originally posted by: thegimp03
I played one of the D3 betas on default settings (800x600) and it looked amazing - even though I was managing 20-30 fps. I can only imagine what it looks like with settings cranked up. Now that I see that it's capped at 60 fps, that doesn't make me feel too bad.

What videocard were you using?

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: Alkaline5

Originally posted by: jrphoenix
Why would a software company cap how fast their game can run? I don't see a reason for doing this?

This has since been patched, but in the Q3 engine Carmack's physics were tied directly to the current framerate. Normally, this wouldn't make any difference, but at certain settings (com_maxfps "85" was one, IIRC) it resulted in rounding errors that allowed players to jump slightly higher, gaining an edge on certain maps (Q3DM13 Mega Health access, for example). There are probably other side effects, but that's the one I'm most familiar with.

Based on that, I've heard it suggested that: regardless of how many frames a card can produce, the D3 engine should never update its physics more than 60 times per second. (If nothing else, this ensures that the game experience is the same for everyone.) So if things in D3 are only moving 60 times a second, drawing more frames than that would be pointless.

No matter the reason for it, the 60-frame constraint shouldn't be necessary when running timedemos so hopefully D3 will still be a useful benchmark. (Similar to the way com_maxfps didn't limit timedemo runs.)

Why not 100 ticks/s? That would even satisfy member of AT

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: TheCadMan
I wonder if Doom 3 will see any benifit from the professional openGl cards like the quadro Fx 4000 as compared to the 6800u. The quadro 4000 already kills the 6800u in all other OpenGL Apps by double. Also the game was designed on the quadro's so i can only wonder.

Doubt it. The Quadros don't do any better than the gamer cards, either. Part of the GPU is not avilable for use, IIRC. However, if those features start getting used in games, they will be enabled for the game cards.

 

[nemesismk2]

Originally posted by: GeneralGrievous

Just maybe ATI could do for Doom3 what Nvidia did for Far Cry and increase the performance with their drivers....oh dreams .....

You mean increase performance by lowering IQ? No thnx, at least for the x800 cards.

Either way, I doubt any card will play this game at 1600x1200 4AA/8AF in the near future.

Perhaps not. But if I can't pull off 1600x1200 with 16x AF I will be incrediby pissed and id will be getting a nasty email.

If your video card can't do 1600x1200 with 16x AF with Doom3 then upgrade to something with 6800 ultra in the title!

 

[PrayForDeath]

Originally posted by: nemesismk2

Originally posted by: GeneralGrievous

Just maybe ATI could do for Doom3 what Nvidia did for Far Cry and increase the performance with their drivers....oh dreams .....

You mean increase performance by lowering IQ? No thnx, at least for the x800 cards.

Either way, I doubt any card will play this game at 1600x1200 4AA/8AF in the near future.

Perhaps not. But if I can't pull off 1600x1200 with 16x AF I will be incrediby pissed and id will be getting a nasty email.

If your video card can't do 1600x1200 with 16x AF with Doom3 then upgrade to something with 6800 ultra in the title!

He already has an XT-PE

As for the 60FPS cap, I guess that's usefull for ATI users (Temporal Anti Aliasing ) if they manage to reach such FPS