CubicZirconia
Diamond Member
- Nov 24, 2001
- 5,193
- 0
- 71
Quake4 is NOT multiplayer Doom3. Did you play both multiplayer Doom2 and multiplayer Quake1? Good, you know the differences. Don't confuse the both of them.
Agree. I'm tired of spending serious cash on my machines just to have it lowered to the lowest common denominator. If id sets the bar high now, then the rest will follow in time. Otherwise, we'll essentially have 1998 games/multiplayer in 2004.
I know nothing about coding, but couldn't they code SP and MP seperately? That would ensure SP had great physics(Because they would code SP for it) and MP had little or "gimped" physics(Because that's how it would be coded for MP). I doubt anyone would mind less-than-stellar physics in MP if it allowed more than 4 players to play AND allowed SP to keep the stellar physics.
I hope that's readable.
Well how much network programming experience do YOU have? Of course accuracy and performance are important - I was saying these two goals usually conflict against each other and you always have to make a compromise. I wasn't complaining about Doom3, I was saying they just opted to focus on accuracy and not performance (as in having 32+ players simultaneously). Maybe you should follow your own advice and read better.
:thumbsup:
Exactly... If there was a way they could make more players workable I'm sure it would've happened sometime over the development period. Instead they focused on making this a great single player experience and I guess we'll see if it was the right decision in less than a week.
Sure wish I had a 6800 to find out though. I want a BFG 6800...
Well anal programming isn't neccesarily a bad thing. It's taking meticulous care and not skipping any details. We end up with a better gaming experience but harsher connection requirements such as broadband and 4 players max.
And to the people who say accuracy is everything I would disagree because you wouldn't even notice. Suppose you have hundreds of bullets going in the same direction. If you use generalized approximations to define their vector velocities then you're essentially compressing information. As a result a few bullets would be off-course by a few degrees but not enough to be noticeable. If you shoot a hundred bullets and a few of them are a pixel off would you notice? If you lob a grenade and instead of a perfect arc it moves in sweeping segments you'd probably blame your computer hardware and not the game engine.
I don't claim I could write the network code any better than the worst programmer at ID - I'm just saying that Doom3 having a 4 player max means their engine must be incredibly accurate.
I have to think things have to be the way they are or they wouldn't have limited it to 4 players. And I'm no expert but I think accuracy on all sides would be important. I mean, if I'm trying to hide behind something on my side and it's not in the same spot as your side how would that be resolved? Say I'm totally hidden on my side but on your side you can see my head sticking up. You are shooting at what doesn't exist. Again, I have no programming experience but I have faith that id did their best with multiplayer. And at least they are including it unlike original releases of Halo and Unreal2.
D3 is supposed to have something like per pixel hit detection, no more huge bounding boxes. Accuracy is more important...if you shoot at someone the bullet can go in between the arm and torso, which is a miss. Under other systems thats a hit.
This is actually kinda intriguing. Imagine the skeleton models people will make!
Originally posted by: Robor
I have to think things have to be the way they are or they wouldn't have limited it to 4 players. And I'm no expert but I think accuracy on all sides would be important. I mean, if I'm trying to hide behind something on my side and it's not in the same spot as your side how would that be resolved? Say I'm totally hidden on my side but on your side you can see my head sticking up. You are shooting at what doesn't exist. Again, I have no programming experience but I have faith that id did their best with multiplayer. And at least they are including it unlike original releases of Halo and Unreal2.
Well that's a little extreme! I'm talking about being off by a few pixels at most. I agree that their code is most likely great and I trust them - I just wish there was a slider/toggle to decrease accuracy by a hair and enable more simultaneous players.
Originally posted by: Alternex
Originally posted by: Robor
I have to think things have to be the way they are or they wouldn't have limited it to 4 players. And I'm no expert but I think accuracy on all sides would be important. I mean, if I'm trying to hide behind something on my side and it's not in the same spot as your side how would that be resolved? Say I'm totally hidden on my side but on your side you can see my head sticking up. You are shooting at what doesn't exist. Again, I have no programming experience but I have faith that id did their best with multiplayer. And at least they are including it unlike original releases of Halo and Unreal2.
Well that's a little extreme! I'm talking about being off by a few pixels at most. I agree that their code is most likely great and I trust them - I just wish there was a slider/toggle to decrease accuracy by a hair and enable more simultaneous players.
Are you so sure that decreasing accuracy 'by a hair' WOULD enable more simultaneous players?
If that's the case.. then Doom3, the most graphically advanced game to date, will have multiplayer matches with stick figures running around since they'd be impossible to hit!
Hardcore: nope.. just speculation. Well the logic is that less accuracy -> less info that has to be sent over the network -> better network performance -> more simultaneous players. Large textures, huge models, and complex maps shouldn't affect network performance as much since all that is computed at each client and they're not sent over the network.
In older games where the map is static all you have to send over the network are the player/bullet vectors (position + direction). Doom3 seems to be very dynamic so you now have to send over the network the position of that barrel you knocked over, that bug you stepped on, and a million other things we'll see come aug 5th. So yeah that's a lot of data!
Btw, just because the game requires broadband doesn't mean someone on a 56k connection won't log on and join your game anyways.
Doom3 seems also very interactive.
For instance you can stand on the bodies of dead/dying monters and stuff like that.
It's more then just bullet detection for them.. it's fully interactive enviroment. (a target, not nessicarially a acheivement), so it's important to detect everything.
Maybe you can get to the point were your sliding across the wall and get the barrell of your gun stuck temporarially in a crevis or something like that. Won't know until I play the game.
Stuff like that isn't probably going to work out well in a multiplayer enviroment. Plus alot goes into multiplayer network code then it seems at first. Unless the game engine itself is designed to compinsate for lag and stuff like that your going to be in a crappy way.
Think Quake1 over dialup vs Quakeworld vs Quake3 and how much lag hurts you.
Just my thoughts. I think it's likely that ID will issue a statement that will make this issue more clear when people start wanting to do 20+ people clan matches like they do with Quake3.
For instance you can stand on the bodies of dead/dying monters and stuff like that.
It's more then just bullet detection for them.. it's fully interactive enviroment. (a target, not nessicarially a acheivement), so it's important to detect everything.
Maybe you can get to the point were your sliding across the wall and get the barrell of your gun stuck temporarially in a crevis or something like that. Won't know until I play the game.
Stuff like that isn't probably going to work out well in a multiplayer enviroment. Plus alot goes into multiplayer network code then it seems at first. Unless the game engine itself is designed to compinsate for lag and stuff like that your going to be in a crappy way.
Think Quake1 over dialup vs Quakeworld vs Quake3 and how much lag hurts you.
Just my thoughts. I think it's likely that ID will issue a statement that will make this issue more clear when people start wanting to do 20+ people clan matches like they do with Quake3.
heh...in Q2 there were models that were things like Broom, and Stick. It was an advantage because you couldn't see them easily. I'm sure there will be a pure mode, ala Q3.
I think you read about the per pixel stuff in Todd H's .plan updates. He said at first they thought the code was broken because they couldn't hit anything, then they analyzed something and found most of the shots were going between legs and arms....everything was working they but the detection is a little too perfect.
Do you want them to code seperately?
It's a single player focused game, it's complex, it's done when it's done.
They, IMO, weren't too bothered about multiplayer (wasn't even gonna be in it), be glad it's there at all.
No point in coding it seperately, too much work for something they weren't focused on.
Okay, I was just throwing out ideas. Also, knowing nothing about coding, I thought coding the two different parts wouldn't be too hard, because you would have the base for MP but you would just have to remove physics or cripple them. I guess that creates a ripple effect which makes them change more code in MP, and so on, so I see what you are saying.
Yes exactly.
You see ID had a choice of making a game that had very good single player game, then having a second company (Raven wasn't it?) working on turning it into a very good multiplayer game under their supervision, thus doubling their profits.
Or just making a single multiplayer/single player game that would do neither well and they can loose money on.
Clearly ID was being sellfish in this regard.
Because we all know how simple it is to make a single player game, and then recode it to a multiplayer game and sell it in one retail box. And I suppose by the time they were done doing that then it would be out on time to compete against the likes of Duke Nukem Forever on our multiple-cpu 64bit PC's with 80gigs of RAM running Longhorn.
(that was sarcasm.)
All we need is for the mod community to come up with some maps... preferrably ones that are just a big box with zero objects to interact with. Then we can have our 32 player fragfests.
dfi
dfi
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