Don't bury AGP just yet

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jiffylube1024

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
7,430
0
71
Originally posted by: DavidL6
I decided to upgrade an older computer I have to use for nothing but distributed computing (World Community Grid), CF2, and FS9. It had a Leadtek A380 - 5950 Ultra video card. I installed a 7800 GS card a few days ago. It's almost UNBELIEVABLE how much difference there is between those two cards!

If you have a pretty good computer (CPU, PSU, RAM, etc.) don't listen to those that tell you to junk it and build a PCI-E system because yours is obsolete. You can upgrade your old video card and see a performance increase right now and upgrade to the latest and greatest DX 10 stuff in a year or so after things settle down a bit.

If you have an Intel P4 system take a look at eBay for good deals on CPU's. The Intel CPU's have dropped in price quite a bit and if you are careful you can get a CPU that would have cost you ~$500 a few months ago for less than half that amount. You can upgrade that old AGP system with a new video card and maybe a CPU for a lot less than a new PCI-E system will cost.

I switched from a 2.8 GHz Northwood to a 3.4 GHz Northwood at the same time I switched the 5950 Ultra for the 7800 GS and my 3DMark06 scores jumped from ~ 500 to ~ 3000. Cost, including shipping, was a tad under $400 and I still have both the 2.8 CPU and the 5950 video card. Haven't decided whether or not I am going to sell them (probably) or keep 'em for spares.

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

For people with good AGP systems, I'd recommend keeping the RAM and picking up a good Socket 939 board (DFI Ultra-D for example) for cheap. (~$60-$80)

You can get a 3000+ for nothing these days ($40 or so) and easily overclock it to 2.4-2.6 GHz. That's about equivalent to a ~3.6 GHz Pentium 4 Northwood. And it feels snappier too.

Get a solid heatsink (like an XP-90) for $25.

Then you get your pick of the litter with PCI-e cards. Honestly I think the main thing keeping AGP alive is obstinance ;) .

So for ~$140 you can upgrade to S939 and then get a $250 X1900XT 256MB, which will absolutely crush the 7900GS. Plus you've got the benefits of a newer chipset (Serial ATA2, more USB 2.0 ports (10!), onboard firewire (just in case your board didn't have it), etc.

Total cost to upgrade: ~$390. Same as yours! You get a faster system, and you still can sell your 2.8C and 5900 video card :) .
 

hans007

Lifer
Feb 1, 2000
20,212
18
81
if you hav ea p4, its probalby worth upgrading.


if you have a athlon 64 754 or 939. maybe you stick with agp, but a cheap mobo is like $40 now. so it still might be worth getting a new board , if you are willing to "repair" windows xp install later.

agp is completely a bad idea at this point if you are oging to buya new card anyway. since every card, the agp version is at least $50 more, (like hte 7600gt agp compared to pcie) that oyu might as well buy a $50 board and not get stuck with yet another AGP card that you'll wanna carry along with you later.
 

Avalon

Diamond Member
Jul 16, 2001
7,571
178
106
I made the switch to PCI-e early on when I saw that PCI-e cards were starting to become cheaper than their AGP counterparts. I didn't gain any immediate benefit (although the DFI Ultra-D I got was a much nicer board than the one I had previously), but I upgrade often and have gone through 7 different GPUs since...made it worth it to me. I'm not in the majority, though :p
 

Dethfrumbelo

Golden Member
Nov 16, 2004
1,499
0
0
Originally posted by: Avalon
I made the switch to PCI-e early on when I saw that PCI-e cards were starting to become cheaper than their AGP counterparts. I didn't gain any immediate benefit (although the DFI Ultra-D I got was a much nicer board than the one I had previously), but I upgrade often and have gone through 7 different GPUs since...made it worth it to me. I'm not in the majority, though :p

Yikes, 7 video cards in less than 2 years. I was feeling guilty about only putting 20 months on this card before I upgrade to G80.


 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,677
6,250
126
AGP is already buried. New AGP cards are merely ATI/Nvidia bringing fresh flowers to the gravesite! ;)

Only if you have a system with AGP and can't afford more than a video card does it make sense to stay with AGP.
 

nitromullet

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2004
9,031
36
91
Where's the OP...? He just wants to preach and run...? I don't really get why someone with two quasi decent gaming rigs that has been using one for only distributed computing is going to talk me about value...

I still have my PCI-E system with a P4 670 and a 7800 GTX if I want to run something that needs a little more horsepower.

So, why not just use the PCI-E rig all the time...? Why bother "upgrading" an old computer to something less than you already have? I could see it if maybe you turned your old PC into an HTPC, but why two gamers? Doesn't sound like a good value to me.

I could also maybe see it of you were strapped for cash, and you just couldn't eek out anything more then an AGP card... Maybe if your in your second or third year of college, and the P4/AGP rig mommy and daddy bought you for school is still fine for homework but not for fun, but that doesn't appear to descibe you either...

I'm also in the process of building a Conroe system

Three rigs...? Why? You already said one of your two current ones was pretty much doing nothing... Again, doesn't sound like a good value to me...
 

KingGheedora

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2006
3,248
1
81
Originally posted by: Ackmed
There is zero chance I would spend $400 on another CPU, and AGP card. I would much rather put the money towards a much faster PCIe card, for the same cash.

But hey, if you're happy thats all that matters. I do disagree with this part of your post, "You can upgrade that old AGP system with a new video card and maybe a CPU for a lot less than a new PCI-E system will cost.". You dont need a new system, you can just get a new mobo/cpu/video card. For the $400 you spent, I can find all three, not much more, and still be faster than what you got. A lot faster. As I said though, as long as you're happy. It looks like you're trying to justify your purchase with this post though.

mobo/cpu/video card isn't always the only thing that needs to be upgraded to move to PCIe. You have to account for other hardware dependencies. For example, I have S754 A64 system , AGP video card. To move to PCIe, I need a PCIe mobo, which means a new CPU, which means new memory (I'm on DDR), plus the new video card. And likely a lot of people upgrading to modern video cards will need a new PSU as well.

vid card/CPU/mobo/RAM/PSU may be the case for some (it is for me).
 

CaiNaM

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 2000
3,718
0
0
Originally posted by: KingGheedora
Originally posted by: Ackmed
There is zero chance I would spend $400 on another CPU, and AGP card. I would much rather put the money towards a much faster PCIe card, for the same cash.

But hey, if you're happy thats all that matters. I do disagree with this part of your post, "You can upgrade that old AGP system with a new video card and maybe a CPU for a lot less than a new PCI-E system will cost.". You dont need a new system, you can just get a new mobo/cpu/video card. For the $400 you spent, I can find all three, not much more, and still be faster than what you got. A lot faster. As I said though, as long as you're happy. It looks like you're trying to justify your purchase with this post though.

mobo/cpu/video card isn't always the only thing that needs to be upgraded to move to PCIe. You have to account for other hardware dependencies. For example, I have S754 A64 system , AGP video card. To move to PCIe, I need a PCIe mobo, which means a new CPU, which means new memory (I'm on DDR), plus the new video card. And likely a lot of people upgrading to modern video cards will need a new PSU as well.

vid card/CPU/mobo/RAM/PSU may be the case for some (it is for me).

you wouldn't need new RAM if you move to an S939 system, which offers an abundance of solid boards @ great prices, not to mention inexpensive cpus..

moving to AM2 (which at this point in time is simply a sidegrade from 939) or Conroe would certainly require that, but for strictly gaming you won't see that much benefit - once you're 2ghz a64 or above, the GPU has by far the largest impact on gaming performance.
 

Auric

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
9,591
2
71
There's more to it than moolah... there's time and timing -ergo, avoiding a dead-end upgrade. For instance, those desperate to upgrade and who do not mind doing so with some frequency may be happy to jump on Core 2 Duo despite the relatively high prices of all the new components besides the GPU (CPU, mem, mobo) and the known limitations of 965 rev C1 and current mobo's VRM & GTLRef where Kentsfield and later are concerned and on top of that knowing that in eight months or so PCIe 2.0 will supplant 1.0a, perhaps compelling high-end GPU enthusiasts to upgrade yet again within a year. I, for one, like my mobo to last a few years. I don't really need more CPU power for everything else as long as the GPU is not significantly limited in games so would likely be content for awhile yet if given a higher performance AGP card.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,522
15,561
146
Here's the thing:
I enjoy gaming
I mainly use the computer for other things however.
I build using quality components.
I'm happy with its performance except for games.

I would be happy with X1900GT/7900GT performance as I currently game at 1280x1024.
A card upgrade takes 15 minutes - a new mobo and cpu install takes 5 hours.

When I built my current machine I bought a high end P4, ASUS P4P800 E deluxe, 1G 222 DDR 400, 9600XT with VIVO
If I was to upgrade to PCIe I would buy a Conroe 6600, ASUS 975 or 965 mobo, 2G DDR 800, X1950XTX
Not a cheap S939 mobo with a single core A64 as my P4 3.2 is smoother at multitasking

I'm content to wait until Christmas as it takes me 6 months to get through a game and my 9600XT is adequate for Far Cry. I want a new card/PC however for FEAR and Q4 which I've already bought.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Paratus
Here's the thing:
I enjoy gaming
I mainly use the computer for other things however.
I build using quality components.
I'm happy with its performance except for games.

I would be happy with X1900GT/7900GT performance as I currently game at 1280x1024.
A card upgrade takes 15 minutes - a new mobo and cpu install takes 5 hours.

When I built my current machine I bought a high end P4, ASUS P4P800 E deluxe, 1G 222 DDR 400, 9600XT with VIVO
If I was to upgrade to PCIe I would buy a Conroe 6600, ASUS 975 or 965 mobo, 2G DDR 800, X1950XTX
Not a cheap S939 mobo with a single core A64 as my P4 3.2 is smoother at multitasking

I'm content to wait until Christmas as it takes me 6 months to get through a game and my 9600XT is adequate for Far Cry. I want a new card/PC however for FEAR and Q4 which I've already bought.

FACT: the ONLY thing "lacking" in your rig is your videocard.
. . . tha's the only thing i did different than you . . . and my AGP upgrade options are now over. :p

Anyway . . . when you finally DO upgrade you are gonna wanna play FC all over again . . . believe me even an 9800xt is THAT much "more" nevermind a x850xt or a 7800gs. :)
:thumbsup:

i am looking to build a new rig next year . . . with the 2nd generation of dx10 cards
[next Fall --IF i can wait]
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,522
15,561
146
I was going to upgrade my VC back in May but the wife had us upgrade to a larger house instead :p

That coupled with a crazy work schedule and 2 kids means I only get to game evey so often. So I can wait.

Come Christmas time I'm going to pick up one of the following: X1950PRO, X1650XT, 7800GS, 7600GT or X850.
Hell an X850XT is almost exactly 4X faster than what I've got now! So any of those will be a huge improvement.

I'll probably do a whole new build a year after that.


(I would like to see Farcry with all the eye candy turned up :) )
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
I agree with the OP, although I have a different logic: I got the 99$ S 754 3400+ deal ;) Even to move to a good 939 machines needs a new CPU, and i'm squatting on my current rig for quite a bit of time (atleast 2 more years). So to spend ~180-200 on a card now makes more sense to me (Although i've never spent more than 50 before :eek: Yeah it sucks when you are GPU bound, but if you are used to it there is no difference ;))
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Paratus
I was going to upgrade my VC back in May but the wife had us upgrade to a larger house instead :p

That coupled with a crazy work schedule and 2 kids means I only get to game evey so often. So I can wait.

Come Christmas time I'm going to pick up one of the following: X1950PRO, X1650XT, 7800GS, 7600GT or X850.
Hell an X850XT is almost exactly 4X faster than what I've got now! So any of those will be a huge improvement.

I'll probably do a whole new build a year after that.


(I would like to see Farcry with all the eye candy turned up :) )

that is exactly what i meant.

you will LOVE any new card that you mentioned

. . . and i had to postpone remodeling my house [although i did all the landscaping and repairs this year]. . . . Winter is coming MUCH to fast . . . so it now looks like Spring remodeling [paint/carpet/kitchen] . . . and then a brand new Fall computer build after that . . . :)

"Zero interest" only lasts me for 18 more months :p
:Q

:D

upgrading AGP "makes sense" depending on the individual's circumstances . . . or not ;)

i might upgrade to the x1950p IF it is twice as fast as myt x850xt . . . it would POSTpone my 'scheduled' Fall upgrade to Late Winter '07. ;)
[assuming i get at least $100 for my x850xt]
 

hans007

Lifer
Feb 1, 2000
20,212
18
81
i think upgrading agp really is just a time thing. its almost completely not financially smart (since you'll also be stuck with an agp card that will be very worthless).

the price of a cheap motherboard + pci-e card = agp equivalent. basically the only thing different is the 2 hours it'd take to swap board, and do a winxp pro /repair install.

so its basically a difference of 2 hours and thats about it.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: hans007
i think upgrading agp really is just a time thing. its almost completely not financially smart (since you'll also be stuck with an agp card that will be very worthless).

the price of a cheap motherboard + pci-e card = agp equivalent. basically the only thing different is the 2 hours it'd take to swap board, and do a winxp pro /repair install.

so its basically a difference of 2 hours and thats about it.

i think you're forgetting reinstallation of my OS, apps and games . . . big PitA. it just ain't a 'repair'. :p

it's a 'weekend'
:thumbsdown:

and it's no "Cheap MB" for me . . . wth should i SIDEgrade just to get a nicer videocard. i have a very nice O/C on 2.80c @3.31Ghz making it a close equivalent of a stock A64 3200+

otoh

IF there was an AGP x1950p that was twice as fast as as my x850xt for $300-$100 [sale of x850xt] = $200, it'd make sense.

just install the new card and 'go' . . . for ANOTHER year! :)
 

nitromullet

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2004
9,031
36
91
i think you're forgetting reinstallation of my OS, apps and games . . . big PitA. it just ain't a 'repair'.

it's a 'weekend'

I thought AT was a tech forum, not a sewing circle... A rebuild is only as difficult as you make it. When I do a re-build I have a core set up apps that I install, and then I (re)install other apps and games as I feel I need them. I have noticed in doing this that there are A LOT of apps (games especially) that I don't re-install again, Quake4, Prey, and FEAR are good examples of that. However, should I want to play any of those or need, I have the disks about 5' feet away from me.

wth should i SIDEgrade just to get a nicer videocard

You answered your own question... You are 'side' grading one component to be able to UPgrade another, which results in a net upgrade. I don't think that anyone would dispute the fact that having to switch to motherboards to upgrade your video card is less than ideal... By the same token, if you were to hop on that 3400+ deal posted earlier in this thread I think it would be a tad bit more than a "sidegrade" from your OC'ed P4. Even if your P4 came close, you can OC the 3400+ as well...

IF there was an AGP x1950p that was twice as fast as as my x850xt for $300-$100 [sale of x850xt] = $200, it'd make sense.

Don't get me wrong, you got a sweet deal on your X850XT card, and you did the right upgrade at that time. The point here is that there ISN'T an AGP X1950XT that is twice as fast as your X850XT for $300... What you actually do have are $250+ priced 7800GS (16 pipe 375/1200) AGP cards that perform only slighly better than your X850XT and ~$280 7950GT (24 pipe 560/1450) PCI-E cards that blow the doors off of your X850XT...
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
the only part i agree with is that the x1950p is NOT 2x faster than my current card.... and i will stick with my ORIGINAL plan for completely new build next Fall....
but i could always 'hope' like the rest of the dreamers here.
:eek:

YOU might love reinstalling your OS and updates, apps .... and games . . . and updates . . . and patches . . . and then TESTING it thoroughly and TWEAKING it to perfection. . . .

not i . . . i look forward to installing Vista and completely new apps.
:thumbsup:

for me, your 'sidegrade' is a weekend lost and not to be taken lightly as i have a house to remodel.

and there is still ZERO reason for me to upgrade to anything but Conroe. Screw A64 . . . it's old news.
[by your thinking] :p
 

hans007

Lifer
Feb 1, 2000
20,212
18
81
actually, if you do a windows XP install and do a "repair" install you can instantly move any install over to another new motherboard.

so you would not have to reinstall anything as long as you have an XP disk that has whatever service pack you are using. so if you slip stream an XP disk with SP2, do a repair install it will reset the windows XP hives or whatever, forcing all hardware to redetect the new hardware. so you just have to install your new chipset drivers and you should be done.
 

nitromullet

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2004
9,031
36
91
Originally posted by: apoppin
YOU might love reinstalling your OS and updates, apps .... and games . . . and updates . . . and patches . . . and then TESTING it thoroughly and TWEAKING it to perfection. . . .

Like I said, it's as easy or difficult as you make it, and that depends a lot on how well you plan for it (once you format, it's gone)... It also sounds like I do it more often then you, so to me it's not a very big event.

i look forward to installing Vista and completely new apps.

LOL, and you say that re-installing XP and your apps is a pain in the ass... ? LOL! Have you tried Vista...? If installing XP takes you a weekend, I suggest you take some time off when you get Vista... I've tried Beta 2, RC1, and I have the RC2 iso but I haven't really had the desire to burn it to DVD and install it - that's how much fun Vista is after the fancy interface newness wears off...

for me, your 'sidegrade' is a weekend lost and not to be taken lightly as i have a house to remodel.

Respectable, that takes a lot a time, effort, and money.

and there is still ZERO reason for me to upgrade to anything but Conroe. Screw A64 . . . it's old news.
[by your thinking]

I don't think AGP is old news as a technology. I know that AGP 8x has more than enough bandwidth and as a single card interface it's perfectly fine. However, the people that make motherboards, video cards, and chipsets have all decided that at it's old news and have decided that they would only continue to sell AGP cards at a premium.

Originally posted by: hans007
actually, if you do a windows XP install and do a "repair" install you can instantly move any install over to another new motherboard.

so you would not have to reinstall anything as long as you have an XP disk that has whatever service pack you are using. so if you slip stream an XP disk with SP2, do a repair install it will reset the windows XP hives or whatever, forcing all hardware to redetect the new hardware. so you just have to install your new chipset drivers and you should be done.

http://www.nliteos.com/

nLite is the bomb, lets you easily slipstream drivers, service packs, patches, and even configure an unintended install XP disc.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: nitromullet
Originally posted by: apoppin
YOU might love reinstalling your OS and updates, apps .... and games . . . and updates . . . and patches . . . and then TESTING it thoroughly and TWEAKING it to perfection. . . .

Like I said, it's as easy or difficult as you make it, and that depends a lot on how well you plan for it (once you format, it's gone)... It also sounds like I do it more often then you, so to me it's not a very big event.

i look forward to installing Vista and completely new apps.

LOL, and you say that re-installing XP and your apps is a pain in the ass... ? LOL! Have you tried Vista...? If installing XP takes you a weekend, I suggest you take some time off when you get Vista... I've tried Beta 2, RC1, and I have the RC2 iso but I haven't really had the desire to burn it to DVD and install it - that's how much fun Vista is after the fancy interface newness wears off...

for me, your 'sidegrade' is a weekend lost and not to be taken lightly as i have a house to remodel.

Respectable, that takes a lot a time, effort, and money.

and there is still ZERO reason for me to upgrade to anything but Conroe. Screw A64 . . . it's old news.
[by your thinking]

I don't think AGP is old news as a technology. I know that AGP 8x has more than enough bandwidth and as a single card interface it's perfectly fine. However, the people that make motherboards, video cards, and chipsets have all decided that at it's old news and have decided that they would only continue to sell AGP cards at a premium.

Originally posted by: hans007
actually, if you do a windows XP install and do a "repair" install you can instantly move any install over to another new motherboard.

so you would not have to reinstall anything as long as you have an XP disk that has whatever service pack you are using. so if you slip stream an XP disk with SP2, do a repair install it will reset the windows XP hives or whatever, forcing all hardware to redetect the new hardware. so you just have to install your new chipset drivers and you should be done.

http://www.nliteos.com/

nLite is the bomb, lets you easily slipstream drivers, service packs, patches, and even configure an unintended install XP disc.

first of all, i skipped XP . . . i'm on Win2k and will migrate directly to Vista - probably with the first SP . . . by THEN it should be no more difficult than XP . . .considering i will have ALL new apps [time to give up Office '97] and HW.

i will be 'playing around' with Vista RC2 shortly . . .

i meant A64 is "old news" . . . wth would i "upgrade" to that? :p

it's Conroe or bust
:D

when i finally DO upgrade it will be a long weekend and a brand new system . .. with a PCIe videocard . . . and it will be a significant upgrade . . . unlike a 'sidegrade' now PLUS another upgrade in a year or so.

i really doubt my x850xt will be down to 8x6 by then :p
[probably 10x7 with mid details . . . i'll 'live']