doing research on Toyota vs European Cars

[Doggiedog]

Well, I guess it's no wonder that they threw Bose away and chose ELS (Panasonic) as new partner, and won the first place in high-end stock stereo system review by Edmunds.

Interesting. I personally have B&W speakers in my home and love them. I'm surprised that they ranked at the bottom. I don't know anything about their auto line though. Maybe it's a new venture for them.

I suppose there are different levels of premium though. My MDX Bose was god awful. The Bose in my G35 was acceptable. The Harmon Kardon Logic7 in my 335i sounds decent though it needs a better subwoofer. Unfortunately, the Logic7 was a free upgrade for 335is but it became a $1000 option starting with my model year.

 

[PricklyPete]

"German Engineering" means it's needlessly complicated. Doesn't matter if it's a car, a medical device, a phone system or a freaking coffee maker. It's like a genius that's tripping on acid designed it. Too many sensors, parts, pieces, ect.

Toyota and Honda take a much more conservative approach and aren't as drunk on tech as ze Germans. Although the latest stuff from their Luxury lines continue to blur that line.

Generally I agree with you...but this really hasn't always been the case.

In my opinion, German "over-engineering" was a great thing when it mostly pertained to mechanical devices. Here they really (and still do) go the extra mile. As electronics and computers have become more and more complex, they have always been pushing the limit on what they use those electronics/computers to do. Early on this was good...but in the last two decades, this has resulted in very complex systems that have too many points of failures.

That being said, my last two car purchases were German and I would certainly not rule them out for future purchases (as I don't rule out cars from any country).

 

[KIAman]

Interesting. I personally have B&W speakers in my home and love them. I'm surprised that they ranked at the bottom. I don't know anything about their auto line though. Maybe it's a new venture for them.

I suppose there are different levels of premium though. My MDX Bose was god awful. The Bose in my G35 was acceptable. The Harmon Kardon Logic7 in my 335i sounds decent though it needs a better subwoofer. Unfortunately, the Logic7 was a free upgrade for 335is but it became a $1000 option starting with my model year.

Have you tuned the Logic7 yet? Somewhere on E90Post.com, someone posted optimal EQ and surround settings. I've tuned it to his recommendation and everything sounds good except for music lower than 100hz. I don't think the 8" floor woofers can handle anything that low. I wish I could mod out those 2 floor woofers for 12". Butt massage!

Edit: My current E90 has over 100k miles on it and no reliability issues *fingers crossed* no electrical gremlins.

 

[Doggiedog]

Have you tuned the Logic7 yet? Somewhere on E90Post.com, someone posted optimal EQ and surround settings. I've tuned it to his recommendation and everything sounds good except for music lower than 100hz. I don't think the 8" floor woofers can handle anything that low. I wish I could mod out those 2 floor woofers for 12". Butt massage!

Edit: My current E90 has over 100k miles on it and no reliability issues *fingers crossed* no electrical gremlins.

I tuned it the way I like it. Sort of a bowl shaped EQ. I have the treble turned up pretty high and the bass maybe about 7. You are right about the woofers but they aren't horrible so I'm not going to replace them.

My car has been nothing but problems since i got it. 2.5K miles first HPFP and new fuel injectors, 5K broken L7, 9K miles #2 HPFP, 10K #3 HPFP. Replaced the adaptive headlight unit at 15K miles. Replaced 5 tires due to bubbling. One of those tires took a week, they lost my car for 4 days, and someone ended up stealing my GPS from my glove box while it was missing and in BMW's care. Not to mention I've gotten rear ended twice. Once when it was snowing the second time it was a hit and run while my car was parked on the street. I've got only 16K miles on my car right now in two years.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Ampacity drops dramatically as the temperature gets lower. It's not uncommon for the cold cranking amp value to be less than half of the battery's ideal output at a nice warm temperature.

This is true of every battery ever made by anyone anywhere. I don't see how it's relevant to the discussion at hand.

The battery in my parents Altima is so shitty that the car won't start if you let it sit for a couple days. It's just barely enough battery to get the car started and that's only if you run the car every single day.

Your parents should have that electrical short fixed instead of blaming the battery. Something somewhere has gone wrong in the electrical system if the parasitic load is high enough to drain a battery in 2-3 days. This has nothing to do with the battery.

Also, batteries are rated in cranking amps, not amp-hours. A battery with more cranking amps does not necessarily have any more amp-hour capacity than one with fewer cranking amps. Higher cranking amps without a correspondingly higher amp-hour capacity won't do a damn thing to prevent the battery from dying when the car is disused.

Tolerances that narrow are unacceptable. I think one should be able to let a car sit for a whole month and the thing should fire up on the first try.

1) Tolerances aren't that narrow (see below).

2) It's not rational to ask that a modern car will sit for a month without needing a jump unless you pull the fuses for the security system and the keyless entry. There's no getting around the parasitic draw from those devices short of disconnecting them. A modern car with keyless entry and security systems will be lucky to manage two to three weeks of non-use.

There is absolutely no excuse for putting a 650A battery in a vehicle that has a 4L engine.

I have yet to see a starter for a gasoline engine that draws more than 300 amps when loaded. The starter for a 4 litre engine (which is, in fact, a relatively small engine) shouldn't really ever exceed 200 amps. A 650 CCA battery should be far more than enough unless it has been poorly maintained and/or is old.

For comparison, Ford does just fine with a 590 CCA battery for a 4.6 litre V8. 650 CCA for a 4.0 litre engine is actually overkill.

ZV

 

[Arkaign]

Toyota will be cheaper to operate than anything German, but they're pretty bland cars really. Go Lexus IS/GS or something if you want a fun well equipped Toyota that compares to BMW/Merc/Audi. Or better yet, go Infiniti and get more for less $. G37 is a sweet deal when you look at all of the specs and the well balanced driving experience.

 

[Doggiedog]

Toyota will be cheaper to operate than anything German, but they're pretty bland cars really. Go Lexus IS/GS or something if you want a fun well equipped Toyota that compares to BMW/Merc/Audi. Or better yet, go Infiniti and get more for less $. G37 is a sweet deal when you look at all of the specs and the well balanced driving experience.

The GS is not a fun car. The IS250 is gutless. I would definitely go for a G35/37 if you want something fun and Japanese. The major drawback there is the mileage.

 

[Arkaign]

The GS is not a fun car. The IS250 is gutless. I would definitely go for a G35/37 if you want something fun and Japanese. The major drawback there is the mileage.

GS430 and IS350 are good, but $$$. G37 is much better value for the bucks for sure. The IS250 is trash.

 

[Ancalagon44]

If you want to compare Toyota with any other auto company, look up the Toyota Way. Their use of "just good enough" parts is just eliminating waste. Their vehicles are still rated as very reliable.

 

[ShawnD1]

2) It's not rational to ask that a modern car will sit for a month without needing a jump unless you pull the fuses for the security system and the keyless entry. There's no getting around the parasitic draw from those devices short of disconnecting them. A modern car with keyless entry and security systems will be lucky to manage two to three weeks of non-use.

I don't think it's that unreasonable. My cell phone has a battery that weighs maybe 50-100 grams and that's enough to transmit and receive messages for more than 1 week before needing a recharge. How on earth could a 20kg car battery have enough parasitic load to die in less than a month? The car isn't even sending and receiving messages like my phone is; it's just sitting idle and waiting for a message.

 

[Bignate603]

I don't think it's that unreasonable. My cell phone has a battery that weighs maybe 50-100 grams and that's enough to transmit and receive messages for more than 1 week before needing a recharge. How on earth could a 20kg car battery have enough parasitic load to die in less than a month? The car isn't even sending and receiving messages like my phone is; it's just sitting idle and waiting for a message.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Sitting there waiting to receive a message uses power. Also, it's looking for a signal from a tiny little transmitter that runs for years off a watch battery. To be able to pick up a smaller signal the receiver in the car will have to use more power.

Also, you ignored the whole point he made about security systems. Those use power too.

 

[SearchMaster]

If you want to compare Toyota with any other auto company, look up the Toyota Way. Their use of "just good enough" parts is just eliminating waste. Their vehicles are still rated as very reliable.

I came in to say this. My gut feel is that Toyota has somewhat lost the "Toyota Way" in the last decade, that they've become more focused on becoming the #1 manu instead of staying on the course that got them there. The 90s Toyotas were remarkable in their reliability.

After the recent PR debacle resulting from the unintended acceleration issues, the CEO has vowed to return to this core philosophy. We'll see...

 

[ShawnD1]

You're comparing apples and oranges. Sitting there waiting to receive a message uses power. Also, it's looking for a signal from a tiny little transmitter that runs for years off a watch battery. To be able to pick up a smaller signal the receiver in the car will have to use more power.

Also, you ignored the whole point he made about security systems. Those use power too.

Why would the car need to use more power than a cell phone? It's waiting to receive a signal, just like a cell phone. If a heavily used cell phone lasts a week, then a big huge expensive car battery should be able to beat that in every measurable way. Unfortunately it doesn't, so even after a week it doesn't have enough cold cranking amps to start a car. zimmer said something about that being 200. So in 1 week a vehicle goes from 650 amps rated down to less than 200? Absolutely pathetic.

The car in question does not have a security system.

 

[Zenmervolt]

I don't think it's that unreasonable. My cell phone has a battery that weighs maybe 50-100 grams and that's enough to transmit and receive messages for more than 1 week before needing a recharge. How on earth could a 20kg car battery have enough parasitic load to die in less than a month? The car isn't even sending and receiving messages like my phone is; it's just sitting idle and waiting for a message.

And now you've basically admitted that there's an electrical fault (as I said there was) and that the issue is not the battery, despite the amount of space you spent claiming that the problem was the battery.

Glad we agree that you were wrong earlier.

ZV

 

[ShawnD1]

And now you've basically admitted that there's an electrical fault (as I said there was) and that the issue is not the battery, despite the amount of space you spent claiming that the problem was the battery.

Glad we agree that you were wrong earlier.

ZV

So it has an electrical fault when it's -20 but the fault magically fixes itself when it's warm outside. This makes perfect sense 🙄

 

[Zenmervolt]

So it has an electrical fault when it's -20 but the fault magically fixes itself when it's warm outside. This makes perfect sense 🙄

Again, even a loaded starter will draw maybe 300 amps for a large engine. A battery with 650 CCA is more than sufficient assuming it has been kept in good condition. Cold weather does not cause a battery to discharge any faster than normal (in fact, batteries self-discharge faster when its warm).

The plain fact here is that if there's enough drain on the battery that it can't sit for more than a day as you claim, then there's something wrong other than the battery. You admitted as much with your post about your cell phone battery. The only way a car battery could be discharged faster is by a higher load, ergo, if it is being discharged faster, there must be a higher load on it. There's simply no way to get around that.

The short doesn't "fix itself" in warm weather, it is simply masked by the fact that the load on the starter can be as little as half the load from a -20 degree day (i.e. 100-150 amps instead of 200-300 amps). Because the engine is so much easier to turn over in warm weather, a partially-discharged or otherwise marginal (i.e. poorly-maintained or old) battery will often seem OK.

Also, at -20 degrees, a block heater is generally recommended.

ZV

 

[ShawnD1]

Good reply. I'll look into the matter and hopefully find what's up.

 

[Doggiedog]

I came in to say this. My gut feel is that Toyota has somewhat lost the "Toyota Way" in the last decade, that they've become more focused on becoming the #1 manu instead of staying on the course that got them there. The 90s Toyotas were remarkable in their reliability.

After the recent PR debacle resulting from the unintended acceleration issues, the CEO has vowed to return to this core philosophy. We'll see...

One of my good friends works as a mechanic at Lexus. He tells me that nearly all of his bays are filled with cars that have quality issues like rattling and squeaking. The only car that doesn't come in for it is the LS. He says he has seen the build quality come down significantly over the last few years as Toyota/Lexus has tried to cut costs and increase production. They really don't build them like they used to.

 

[JulesMaximus]

GS430 and IS350 are good, but $$$. G37 is much better value for the bucks for sure. The IS250 is trash.

It's not trash. It's the exact same car as the IS350, just with a smaller engine. Great brakes, great chassis, same quality interior, just less power.

 

[Arkaign]

It's not trash. It's the exact same car as the IS350, just with a smaller engine. Great brakes, great chassis, same quality interior, just less power.

Hahaha we've had this discussion before, and I agree that for your wife's purposes (she's a real estate person right?) it's alright. It's just awfully expensive for what it is, being priced right there with G37s and such. Around here it's the generic little asian lady car. I also tend to think the fun/advantages of RWD just disappear when power/weight is so low that you never feel it.

Trash is a strong word, it's really just my personal feelings on the thing, it's a nice car, but incredibly slow and expensive. Same $ gets you a relatively loaded Fusion sport which drives even smoother imho, though probably a bit closer to ES350 than IS350 level.

 

[KDKPSJ]

It's not trash. It's the exact same car as the IS350, just with a smaller engine. Great brakes, great chassis, same quality interior, just less power.

It's is trash for those people who only care about 0-60 and HP, the symbol of masculine 🙂 Just like claiming buying *28i BMW is buying badge, despite *28i makes descent power and still drives like BMW.

 

[Bignate603]

Why would the car need to use more power than a cell phone? It's waiting to receive a signal, just like a cell phone. If a heavily used cell phone lasts a week, then a big huge expensive car battery should be able to beat that in every measurable way. Unfortunately it doesn't, so even after a week it doesn't have enough cold cranking amps to start a car. zimmer said something about that being 200. So in 1 week a vehicle goes from 650 amps rated down to less than 200? Absolutely pathetic.

The car in question does not have a security system.

I was going to type out a well thought reply about the power consumption of devices that were designed to look for weak signals as opposed to strong ones but I decided that you wouldn't care and/or understand.

The fact of the matter is though that your car shouldn't go dead that fast. The remote starter does drain power off your battery and can eventually make the car fail to start but parking it for 1 week shouldn't be an issue. Either your battery isn't as good as you think it is, your car has a slow drain on its electrical system, or your alternator isn't working correctly so the battery never gets a full charge. Most auto parts stores can hook up to you your electrical system and do a quick check to help you make sure that the battery and alternator are working ok. Its worth stopping by if the problem is recurring.

 

[ShawnD1]

Apparently it's not just me. A fuckload of people are making the exact same complaints about Nissan Altimas. The one I've had to deal with is a 2005 model

http://autoforum.classifieds1000.com/Nissan-Altima/Battery_Starting_Problems
http://www.cargurus.com/Cars/Discussion-t8405_ds474432

2005 Altima with 40,000 Miles 2.5 S. Having dead battery if the car sits for three or dour days. Changed battery twice in the last year. Dealer could not find any problems. Stated draw on battery is normal. Can't believe that since it keeps going dead. I can't afford the labor rates for them to tear the car apart. Any ideas from pat experiences like this.

So it's not the horrible OEM batteries that are the problem, it's something closer to what zemmer was saying about it having major problems with parasitic loads. Even the people who buy top quality high capacity batteries are having problems with them.


They also had a recall on Xterras for similar issues
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...000-vehicles-for-steering-battery-issues.html

Nissan is set to recall 605,000 vehicles over defects with the steering system and vehicle batteries. The recall will comprise of 303,000 Frontiers, 283,000 Xterras and 18,500 Sentras from the year 2000 to the year 2010.
...
The steering defect can result in a cracked steering shaft due to possible corrosion, while the battery problem exists in the positive cable on Sentras, can can lead to difficulties starting the car or driving at low speeds