Does thought process have to have a language?

[PeeluckyDuckee]

Just something that came to mind.

When we're raised in a certain language (english for example) we think using that native language. Or let's back track, does intelligence, thought process, have to have a language to begin with?

My native tongue is chinese, and sometimes when I do speak in english, I have to think of what I'm going to say first in chinese and translate it back to english as that thought comes out in speech. Like Divx to SVCD

Say if a person was brought up without human contact and left alone in a enclosed space until 18, what language is his/her thought process in? Would his thoughts and actions be equivalent of that of a primitive human being?

 

[StrangerGuy]

Nope. You already know what you are going to do before you think of the words to describe it.

 

[Gunslinger08]

No, but language does affect what you can think of. Basically, language limits what you can imagine or perceive as reality. This is part of the Sapir Wharf Hypothesis. Here's an interesting link:

http://zimmer.csufresno.edu/~johnca/spch100/4-9-sapir.htm

 

[cavemanmoron]

uh if the person was left in an "enclosed" area till 18
wtf...........

How would they communicate with you, or have learned anything/.??

How would they eat, bathe, use a toilet, etc.



When i think, yes I think in "english". I am American.

I speak very little french/spanish/german/italian.........

I took some of those languages in school,
but did not "learn" them.

 

[alien42]

this question reminds me of the movie 'quest for fire'

 

[KillerCharlie]

My bilingual friends say that dreams have a language since they dream in different languages... kind of weird.

 

[bmacd]

very interesting topic

-=bmacd=-

 

[MustangSVT]

unless you need to write it or describe it to someone, it is done without a language.

at least for me

 

[WhiteKnight]

According to my wife (Developmental Psychology grad student), there are some well founded theories that say that people often lack memories of early childhood because they lacked the language skills to store each memory. For example, rather than having to remember an image from childhood with no description, language skills allow you to remember "A house, a car, a dog" etc.

 

[imported_malcontent]

I would think that language would be a variable that would be called during the thought process. The variable being whatever language the person running the thought process was most familiar and comfortable with. But, I know nothing about programming, so this is a W.A.G.

 

[Caesar]

Yes. I am from India and so when I first came here I used to think trough in Hindi and then translate it in english to say it. Now with time passing by I am starting to think in english more and more and so I reply to questions much faster than I used to before.

 

[dug777]

hmmm, i think in english, and speak it...hmmm

 

[SVT Cobra]

very interesting question. As others said I believe that language has some input to it, almost like a filter or an encoder that allows us to be able to express those thoughts, but without the language we still have the same electronic brain waves and functions...hence why some things we can do without thinking, I mean when you tie your shoe you do not think of the english words and directions to tie your shoe...yet that is a bad example

i think a lot of it has to due with instinct and also a lot of external distractions detected by our sensory system's almost dibilitating(sp) effect on the brain...

 

[Goosemaster]

*eyes tasty mouth-watering oversized glass jar of Gerber Apple Sauce*

GOOGOO GAAGAAA

IMHO, some sort of identification and sorting is required. In this case the audible is an undiscernable mess with real context behind it. Behind the scenes, physical needs are modified for indulgence in the form of an object that provides pleasure.
The thoughts take place without language but with the most basic human instincts....

Developed thought, with computed results and conscious decision making requires knowledge of such abilites, so language, or rather, a medium by which to learn how to do this, is required.


So for developed thought that can be restrained and kept as thought without immediate action or reaction, language, or some sort of mental database, beyond what instincts provide, is needed


[/*cough Bullsh!t*]

 

[WobbleWobble]

I have no scientific proof, but my thoughts on this that the more languages you know, the more paths your brain has to use to "think".

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: joshsquall
No, but language does affect what you can think of. Basically, language limits what you can imagine or perceive as reality. This is part of the Sapir Wharf Hypothesis. Here's an interesting link:

http://zimmer.csufresno.edu/~johnca/spch100/4-9-sapir.htm

wow...even before clicking on the link I find your psot most intriguing.


It makes perfect sense. Language simply helps us organize but thought, unabaded thought is what makes humanity really shine.

Some people call it 'thinking' out of the box, but they are yet again relegating this ability to some languistic concept.

For example, visualization is what really interests me.

It is not exactly simple to explain vizualization. It's as if a temporal plane is created in mental space whereby one can place objects or words or anything really and have compelte control over them.

For example, when I am driving, I always have a mental 2d plane in use that always keeps track of wher cars are. I constantly have to 'update ' it by lookign around and such, but when somethign bad happens, I don't even have to rely on my vision as the whole topology is in my head and physics-based assumptions take care of the rest.

<-----almost got sideswipped @ 70mph on route 66 and

a) saw the car coming from the left well before the time of impact.
b)swired out to the right to avoid the swipe
c) car was goign to hit railing so swwred back to let back swing out and change direction
d) regain control somehow

that is the best way I can put it, but in my head it was rather simple....

move right, keep track of my momentum's vetor and my cars positional vector....


well, you get the point.....the mental version is much simpler and is 'isntant' in its actualization

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: WobbleWobble
I have no scientific proof, but my thoughts on this that the more languages you know, the more paths your brain has to use to "think".

I agree. Certain concepts are hard to translate, especially using limited vocabularies, exposign the person to the reality that language is a limiting factor in thought, not only i regards to expressing somethign to others, but doing such to oneself.

For example that car thing I decribed with a 2d place sounds weird, but to me it is normal....and I still feel that I cannot adaquately explain it with writing a term a paper...


*imagines himself under a hot lamp at 5am in the morning on the day that the paper is due castigating himself for waiting so long and getting distracted by the fatigue*

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Originally posted by: Goosemaster

Originally posted by: joshsquall
No, but language does affect what you can think of. Basically, language limits what you can imagine or perceive as reality. This is part of the Sapir Wharf Hypothesis. Here's an interesting link:

http://zimmer.csufresno.edu/~johnca/spch100/4-9-sapir.htm

wow...even before clicking on the link I find your psot most intriguing.


It makes perfect sense. Language simply helps us organize but thought, unabaded thought is what makes humanity really shine.

Some people call it 'thinking' out of the box, but they are yet again relegating this ability to some languistic concept.

For example, visualization is what really interests me.

It is not exactly simple to explain vizualization. It's as if a temporal plane is created in mental space whereby one can place objects or words or anything really and have compelte control over them.

For example, when I am driving, I always have a mental 2d plane in use that always keeps track of wher cars are. I constantly have to 'update ' it by lookign around and such, but when somethign bad happens, I don't even have to rely on my vision as the whole topology is in my head and physics-based assumptions take care of the rest.

<-----almost got sideswipped @ 70mph on route 66 and

a) saw the car coming from the left well before the time of impact.
b)swired out to the right to avoid the swipe
c) car was goign to hit railing so swwred back to let back swing out and change direction
d) regain control somehow

that is the best way I can put it, but in my head it was rather simple....

move right, keep track of my momentum's vetor and my cars positional vector....


well, you get the point.....the mental version is much simpler and is 'isntant' in its actualization

We really need to get you a spell checker for your birthday :laugh:

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: sheik124

Originally posted by: Goosemaster

Originally posted by: joshsquall
No, but language does affect what you can think of. Basically, language limits what you can imagine or perceive as reality. This is part of the Sapir Wharf Hypothesis. Here's an interesting link:

http://zimmer.csufresno.edu/~johnca/spch100/4-9-sapir.htm

wow...even before clicking on the link I find your psot most intriguing.


It makes perfect sense. Language simply helps us organize but thought, unabaded thought is what makes humanity really shine.

Some people call it 'thinking' out of the box, but they are yet again relegating this ability to some languistic concept.

For example, visualization is what really interests me.

It is not exactly simple to explain vizualization. It's as if a temporal plane is created in mental space whereby one can place objects or words or anything really and have compelte control over them.

For example, when I am driving, I always have a mental 2d plane in use that always keeps track of wher cars are. I constantly have to 'update ' it by lookign around and such, but when somethign bad happens, I don't even have to rely on my vision as the whole topology is in my head and physics-based assumptions take care of the rest.

<-----almost got sideswipped @ 70mph on route 66 and

a) saw the car coming from the left well before the time of impact.
b)swired out to the right to avoid the swipe
c) car was goign to hit railing so swwred back to let back swing out and change direction
d) regain control somehow

that is the best way I can put it, but in my head it was rather simple....

move right, keep track of my momentum's vetor and my cars positional vector....


well, you get the point.....the mental version is much simpler and is 'isntant' in its actualization

We really need to get you a spell checker for your birthday :laugh:

In my mind, it's the thought, and not the pecking of my chicken scrathing that matters

 

[PeeluckyDuckee]

Interesting that language is actually a limiting factor to one's natural learning about, being not as pure learning experience.

How does one explain why people don't retain thought/memory until maybe 2yrs of age? Putting a word to a picture helps better with memory? Doesn't seem so, at least not in my case.

I'm sure by the age of 6 I was able to speak, yet I really don't recall anything in my life until 7yrs old when I came to Canada. In my mind there are random images that I've seen in my childhood between 0 - 6 yrs of age. Between 0 and 6 I don't recall anything anybody said to me or what I've said or done myself.

 

[swai]

what happens when u think of a musical note?

as a musician my mind is always thinking of music, and it is in no way related to language

 

[Circlenaut]

Originally posted by: swai
what happens when u think of a musical note?

as a musician my mind is always thinking of music, and it is in no way related to language

Couldn't music be considered a form of language? Though I know not everybody can "communicate" using it

 

[swai]

music is a form of communication, hence people call it a "language"

C++ is also a language too

but we're clearly not talking about those kind of languages

 

[clickynext]

Well, no one really knows for sure on this topic so it's up to debate, for the psychologists as well. But thought process in my opinion, as in intention and actions, don't have to have language. For example, when you're reaching over and lifting up a pencil, you don't necessarily think anything to do it. However, everything that you conciously think about, and are aware of thinking about, has to have a language. For example, when you think "is that pencil white?" you are always thinking in a language, and basically talking to yourself. As for music, it expresses different things than a language does. It's not something you can use to express thought processes. But when you think of musical notes themselves, you are thinking of audible sounds which mean something, which fits within the description for "language".

 

[RGN]

Originally posted by: WobbleWobble
I have no scientific proof, but my thoughts on this that the more languages you know, the more paths your brain has to use to "think".

Yeah, that would make sense. I know that when I was studying Japanese I had gotten to the point of thinking in the other language. It was wierd, I'd be doing things, work/school/playing and realizing that I was using another approach to the world around me.