Does the USA do enough to recognize its past?

[PlasticJesus]

Is it really a ridiculous statement? I didn't make a statement on who has been wronged and who hasn't.

What is perception, anyway? For most people perception is reality and it would seem anymore that everyone will tell you that they have been wronged.

I even saw a white guy in OT a couple weeks ago claiming that white guys where he lives can't get jobs because of quotas and what-not. With that statement, now everyone has been wronged.

We have Mexicans down here that will tell you that the King Ranch is only as big as it is because those King folks killed an awful lot of Mexicans. A memorial for those Mexicans might be a thought.

I wouldn't begrudge anyone anything. If they can get it done, good for them. At the same time, surely you have to know that for the most part you cannot force people to be sympathetic to anything that does not directly mean anything to them presently or historically.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: PlasticJesus
I'd be awful curious to know just what you think this memorial to the Indians should look like.

There could be tons of designs. For one idea of what this looks like, consider the various holocaust ones that are around he country and the world.

Maybe I shouldn't speak on any of it because I'm not one who's willing to stand in line to kiss the ass of anybody and everybody who perceives that they've somehow been wronged.

Perceived wrong? A native american family being killed by the US army is not a wrong?

You build a memorial and I'm sure that that's still not enough.

Ummm... of course it wouldn't. Do you think the German shrine to the holocaust makes jews just forget about it?

I kind of feel that maybe the best way to honor a people is to educate yourselves about them.

Right, and this is part of the education process. You see a memorial, it makes you think.

Seems to me that a museum does this more nicely than something like that Crazy Horse mountain sculpture mentioned above.

We learn about Lincoln in class and then we also see his monument. The two aren't exclusive.

What did you think of the museum?

I thought it wasn't that great to be honest, but mostly because it seemed so emtpy which I think is due to it being so new. The displays weren't really that interesting.

 

[jammur21]

Memorials, yes.
Reparations, no. Although I do support the reparations received by the living survivors of the WWII Japanese Internment Camps.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: BBond

Yeah, right. America invented freedom. We rescued "primitive tribes" by doing them the favor of enslaving them for a few centuries then denying them basic civil rights for a century or so more.

I'm not racist. I advocate the condept of individualism, actually, and tend to oppose collectivism. In my view the government should be absolutely colorblind towards its own citizens.

Of course America didn't invent freedom, but it was the first Western nation to codify it and to enshrine it in the structure of its government. The U.S. Constitution and its Bill of Rights was a groundbreaking document.

As for the primative tribes--whatever ancestral Americans did was no worse than what they had been doing to themselves for centuries and no worse than what they would have done had the tables been reversed. It isn't even newsworthy because that kind of behavior was so common in the past. Enslaving other people and subjegating other ethnic groups was just normal behavior that had occurred for millenia throughout world history. What is noteworthy is that Americans put an end.

The principles underlying the founding of the country--individual rights, the freedom to pursue your own life, liberty, and happiness free from the government and from the initiation of physical force by others--those American principles led to the end (for the most part) of the kind of government-sanctioned behavior you condemn.

That is what is noteworthy and that is what America should be remembered for. That's why I think building monuments for slavery and for the subjegation of American Indians is an insult. How about building monuments for the black-on-black slavery that occurred in Africa and how about building monuments for the Indian's tribal wars, slavery, and bloody sacrifices? How come no one wants to recognize that? Why is such a great nation that put an end to it the one that should suffer having a monument that states, "You guys were such awful, bad people, you did this!"?

If we need another monument, could we please build a second and more grand Statue of Liberty? How about a beautiful monument for the concept of individual rights? Shouldn't those things take priority over a monument to slavery or the American Indians?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: judasmachine

I don't think most people realize how far this would go with calming a great many ill feelings that still fester within many American Indians, and Blacks. An olive branch that is permanent is something we have not recieved from the likes of the US government who served us salvation from the barrel of a gun.

Being able to live in modern American society where the government protects your individual rights is not enough? Being able to enjoy the kind of wealth and freedom that Americans can enjoy is not enough? Being able to be an individual, free from being forced into having to follow the dictates of a tribal leader and free from being forced into having to live for the good of the collective is not enough?

Can you say the same for life in Africa? Had the American Indians been left alone, would you be able to say the same? Would you tell that to the Aztecs before they sacrificed you to the sun god or a neighboring tribe before you were executed or enslaved?

If any blacks feel that they would be better off living in Africa, I eagerly encourage them to leave the U.S. and return to Africa--stop complaining and try to put yourself back into the position you would have been in but for the past attrocities. I wish I could give American Indians the same offer.

I wish these people would just shrug off having a collective identity and embrace individualism--your identity is what you make of it and not an accident of your birth. Heck, my ancestry have faced huge amounts of discrimination but I'm not going to dwell on it in today's America. Most people's ancenstry faced large amounts of discrimination. The issue is not "what happened in the past?", the issue is, how much freedom do you have to pursue your own life today? An issue such as whether or not abortion should be legal plays a far greater role in your life than events that occurred over 100 years ago.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Of course America didn't invent freedom, but it was the first Western nation to codify it and to enshrine it in the structure of its government. [/b]

Depends on how you want to define freedom. A lot of european countries instituted similar ideas before the US, even if not to the full extent. And the American freedom was hardly whole-- just look at acceptance of slavery in the orignal US. Other countries outlawed slavery first in Europe.

The U.S. Constitution and its Bill of Rights was a groundbreaking document.

And this somehow negates all the wrongdoigns by the US?

As for the primative tribes--whatever ancestral Americans did was no worse than what they had been doing to themselves for centuries and no worse than what they would have done had the tables been reversed.

What's your evidence for this?

It isn't even newsworthy because that kind of behavior was so common in the past. Enslaving other people and subjegating other ethnic groups was just normal behavior that had occurred for millenia throughout world history.

Here you go again with the two wrongs make a right argument...

That's why I think building monuments for slavery and for the subjegation of American Indians is an insult. How about building monuments for the black-on-black slavery that occurred in Africa and how about building monuments for the Indian's tribal wars, slavery, and bloody sacrifices?

Those have nothing to do with the US government.

How come no one wants to recognize that?

Because nobody is defending those other wrongdoers like you are defending the US?

Why is such a great nation that put an end to it the one that should suffer having a monument that states, "You guys were such awful, bad people, you did this!"?

:roll:

If we need another monument, could we please build a second and more grand Statue of Liberty? How about a beautiful monument for the concept of individual rights?

Go for it.

Shouldn't those things take priority over a monument to slavery or the American Indians?

No, we already have a statue of liberty (made by france by the way). Before another one is made, we can do these.

 

[Emultra]

The Constitution is only ostensibly active. It has been, is and will be violated beyond recognition. Looking at it and then looking at America as a nation, you would think they have almost nothing in common; you'd think you paired the wrong constitution with the wrong country. That's how badly it has been abandoned.

The United States was formed in the context of liberty and independence. For one thing, that meant the British empire no longer had any say as to the affairs of the US.

Alas, imperial Britain has a modern counterpart: the United Nations. Just as your forefathers broke free from British tyranny, you must now leave the parasitical United Nations and honour the original values of independence, liberty and individualism.
Do not let the America become more like the countries of Europe than it already is.

What may very well be the last great bastion of freedom on Earth is under siege by the collectivism from Europe, the terrorism from the East and lastly but perhaps most ominously: the brooding irrationalism from within.

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: judasmachine

I don't think most people realize how far this would go with calming a great many ill feelings that still fester within many American Indians, and Blacks. An olive branch that is permanent is something we have not recieved from the likes of the US government who served us salvation from the barrel of a gun.

Being able to live in modern American society where the government protects your individual rights is not enough? Being able to enjoy the kind of wealth and freedom that Americans can enjoy is not enough? Being able to be an individual, free from being forced into having to follow the dictates of a tribal leader and free from being forced into having to live for the good of the collective is not enough?

Can you say the same for life in Africa? Had the American Indians been left alone, would you be able to say the same? Would you tell that to the Aztecs before they sacrificed you to the sun god or a neighboring tribe before you were executed or enslaved?

If any blacks feel that they would be better off living in Africa, I eagerly encourage them to leave the U.S. and return to Africa--stop complaining and try to put yourself back into the position you would have been in but for the past attrocities. I wish I could give American Indians the same offer.

I wish these people would just shrug off having a collective identity and embrace individualism--your identity is what you make of it and not an accident of your birth. Heck, my ancestry have faced huge amounts of discrimination but I'm not going to dwell on it in today's America. Most people's ancenstry faced large amounts of discrimination. The issue is not "what happened in the past?", the issue is, how much freedom do you have to pursue your own life today? An issue such as whether or not abortion should be legal plays a far greater role in your life than events that occurred over 100 years ago.

Modern america respects our rights less then the way we were living before you came with your cannons, and rifles. You can wash your hands, but it doesn't make them clean. Your kind are still massing on our borders with your books, and crosses trying to destroy the remnents of our culture. We are still not free to live the way we wish to live.

As far as what this continent would look like today... We will never know thanks to a more successful genocide than the 'Final Solution.'

 

[imported_Tango]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper


Could we have a monument for the millions of Africans who were enslaved and killed by other Africans? Heck, even in modern times the Hutus and Tutsis in Rwanda slaughtered each other. Could we have a monument for the victims of the Aztecs? Could we have a momument to recognize the attrocities that some Indian tribes committed against other Indian tribes? Why is it that altruists keep trying to ignore those things and only blame Americans?

The Hutu and Tutsi were created by the Belgians. There wasn't any Hutu/Tutsi dinstinction before the white man arrived in Rwanda.

 

[glenn1]

Go ahead and build it, but when you do give it the proper name, "guilty white man's monument." This isn't about honoring those groups, it's about being a sop to your egos that you did something "good" for them. We could build a dozen monuments and it would do nothing to "make the U.S. greater and more respectable" except in your own mind.

 

[beyoku]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: judasmachine

I don't think most people realize how far this would go with calming a great many ill feelings that still fester within many American Indians, and Blacks. An olive branch that is permanent is something we have not recieved from the likes of the US government who served us salvation from the barrel of a gun.

Being able to live in modern American society where the government protects your individual rights is not enough? Being able to enjoy the kind of wealth and freedom that Americans can enjoy is not enough? Being able to be an individual, free from being forced into having to follow the dictates of a tribal leader and free from being forced into having to live for the good of the collective is not enough?

Can you say the same for life in Africa? Had the American Indians been left alone, would you be able to say the same? Would you tell that to the Aztecs before they sacrificed you to the sun god or a neighboring tribe before you were executed or enslaved?

If any blacks feel that they would be better off living in Africa, I eagerly encourage them to leave the U.S. and return to Africa--stop complaining and try to put yourself back into the position you would have been in but for the past attrocities. I wish I could give American Indians the same offer.

I wish these people would just shrug off having a collective identity and embrace individualism--your identity is what you make of it and not an accident of your birth. Heck, my ancestry have faced huge amounts of discrimination but I'm not going to dwell on it in today's America. Most people's ancenstry faced large amounts of discrimination. The issue is not "what happened in the past?", the issue is, how much freedom do you have to pursue your own life today? An issue such as whether or not abortion should be legal plays a far greater role in your life than events that occurred over 100 years ago.

You do realize that all those "good things" and individual rights etc...Did not even apply to Blacks when it was created. Aslo "Slavery" was different in america as it was in Africa. Just because YOU and other people want to use the same word doesnt make it the same action. Read about a "Slave" in the bible and just maybe you would see what they meant...the right to own property and learn, own other "slaves," be married etc.

 

[filterxg]

I really don't think any country does enough to recognize its past wrongs, because it isn't in our best interests (nationalism). USA is better than most, we aren't in denial like say Japan or the Catholic Church. It would be nice to see more in schools on Native Americans (not just the Indian wars), and at least a blurb on our rounding up of Japanese-Americans during WWII.

Slavery is a different story. We do enough here. From History Class, to national landmarks, to current events (think reparations), and Jessie Jackson. This has not left the public conscious.

 

[Infohawk]

What are the national landmarks to slavery?

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
What are the national landmarks to slavery?

There are about half a million of them. They are kind of small, white stones with some writing on them. You just have to know where to look.

 

[ahurtt]

If it will get people to stop living in the past, STFU, and move on with their lives then fine, I am all for monuments. It is good to remember the wrongs of the past so that we do not repeat them but I can't stand people who think they should get some kind of entitlement because of something somebody did to their ancestors 200 or more years ago. The best thing you can do to right a wrong is to stop doing the wrong and start doing right. We did that. Just be glad it is over and you don't have to live through it. Remember their sacrifice but keep in mind that you are alive and well and enjoying the benefits of todays America. Let the past be the past, put it behind. Let it go already. But I suspect that erecting monuments on the national mall will still not be enough for some people and the bitching will continue. Some people think they are entitled to live a life of luxury because past mistakes were made. Not so. Erect your monuments and these are the people who will be first in line missing the spirit of the gesture and complaining about how the monument is somehow offensive to them. Grow up children. Didn't your mothers ever tell you the world does not revolve around you?

 

[StageLeft]

Yes on wrongs and memorials, yes on recognizing its past too much, yes on the question you didn't ask in that does it often recognize them TOO much.

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Yes on wrongs and memorials, yes on recognizing its past too much, yes on the question you didn't ask in that does it often recognize them TOO much.

Agreed. We really all need to stop dwelling on the past and move on. Remembering your wrongs is one thing so you don't do it again. But getting hung up on them is unhealthy. If you focus too much on sore memories of the past you will miss out on all life has to offer TODAY.

 

[piasabird]

How are you going to memorialize slavery?

Wouldnt this be a memorial against slavery?

There have been a lot of movies and documentaries about the evils of slavery. Any good documentary about the civil war tends to discuss this subject.

Let me ask you this about slavery. If in Mississippi, or say Atlanta Georgia they put up a memorial that praised the achievements of slaves would that be seen as glorifying the white man's institution of Slavery or somehow glorifying the achievements of the Black Race in America. If you think about this, you may rather see monuments to people that did some good or were positive role models for their fellow Black or African Americans.

Of course you could make a museum to the mistreatment of African Americans like a holocaust memorial. Both may be needed.

I work at a community college that was originally a school for young ladies. A fairly afluent man, Benjamin Godfrey, founded the original school because he had some daughters and he thought they needed to go to school just as much as men needed to go to school. When the community college was established in the 70's the charter purchased the property and converted it to a community college. We still tell students that the archway that is now part of a building and has a glass door at both ends was originally a place for the carriages to drop off the students which were young ladies. We named the community college the Lewis & Clark Community College, because we are close to the point where Lewis & Clark started their expedition. A couple years ago we dedicated a beautiful statue of Sacagewea (Spell). The Sculpture is a work by Glenna Goodacre, and the model for the sculpture was a member of the Dakota Sue Tribe. She stands upon the edge of our old cental courtyard and looks down upon the lower elevations of the college like she is guiding the way. There are monuments to Indians in the United States but there could be more. However, they tend to be on reservations like the monument to the Wounded Knee massacre. It takes a long time to add any monument in the nation's capital, but perhaps that is a place of Honor that deserves a statue or a monument to the American Natives.

In illinois there is a museum at Cohokia Mounds which is very near St Louis, MO. There is a Pow Wow held there annually, and I have been to one before. We dont really have a reservation here but the Native Americans show up there from wherever they may be living at the present. Monks Mound is quite tall and was built by some group of Native Americans that may have disappeared long ago. However, Cahokia Mounds is considered to be a special place by many Native Americans. There is a Museum dedicated to the Native Americans that were thought to have originally built it at the site that is quite modern. It is a very interesting exhibit. The museum tries to maintain the dignity of Native Americans. I have been to the top of Monks Mound several times and have always paused to wonder what the original people must have been like that built that place. There are mounds that other Indians use to visit in different places in North America. As an example, George Washington Recorded that Indians use to visit a mound that was located on his plantation.

In Alton, IL there is a monument to an abolitionist (Lovejoy) that was killed for standing up for the rights of African Americans. It is not the same as a monument to an actual slave or African American, but the ideal is still maintained by the people that live here.

Native Americans Honor their ancestors in different ways one way they do this is by participating in a Pow Wow. I dont know how they would feel about a statue or a monument or what they would like to see in a monument. Different tribes may have quite different ideas about a monument. Most likely it would not be what most americans would think a monument should be like.