Does the USA do enough to recognize its past?

[Infohawk]

In case you haven't heard, the Chinese are mad at the Japanese for not doign enough to recognize the atrocities committed in China. I agree with the Chinese on this one. However, does China recognize all its wrongdoings? Does the USA? There is a lot of moral superiority in the international scene. I think to take get on a high horse you first admit your own mistakes. I don't think the US does this enough.

We need two new memorials on the national mall (though we're running out of room).

1) The first one should be dedicated to the victims of european and later US genocide: native americans.

2) The second one should be dedicated to those who were enslaved while the US government sat by for so long.

I'm sure some of the nationalists would be angered by this but I think having an open society where we recognize past wrongs makes the US greater and more respectable. Otherwise, we sound like the Chinese casting stones.

Edited to add polls

 

[Infohawk]

Two people don't think the US has any past wrongs... so slavery was cool? LOL.

 

[BBond]

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
-- George Santayana

 

[surreal1221]

yes yes yes and no.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: surreal1221
yes yes yes and no.

why the no?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

I voted Yes, Yes, No, No. If Americans don't do enough to publicize and to acknowledge past wrongs, I don't know of a nation or peoples who do. Heck, the American people themselves put an end to slavery, fighting a war against the slaveholders. I can't think of a nation where the populace is quicker to condemn the government and its society for past wrongs. (Slavery existed for millenia, yet so few people give Americans credit for ultimately ending it and for founding a society based, at least implicitly, no the concept of individual rights which was completely inimical to slavery and led to its undoing.)

As for memorials; I don't think we should dwell on it. As far as I know, there isn't anyone alive today who was legally enslaved, and the attacks on the Indians ended decades ago as well. Secondly, what 19th Century Americans did was no worse than what people in other nations have done nor any worse than what the victims of the actions probably would have done had the tables been reversed.

Did you know that blacks enslaved other blacks in Africa and that it had gone on for centuries? Explorer David Livingstone once commented that 80% of everyone he met in Africa was a slave. Did you know that Indian tribes waged war against other tribes and (presumably) tried to eradicate them? Presumably, the Indians enslaved other Indians as well. SOUPRISE! The Africans and Indians do not have a monopoly on morality nor would they have had one had the tables been reversed.

Could we have a monument for the millions of Africans who were enslaved and killed by other Africans? Heck, even in modern times the Hutus and Tutsis in Rwanda slaughtered each other. Could we have a monument for the victims of the Aztecs? Could we have a momument to recognize the attrocities that some Indian tribes committed against other Indian tribes? Why is it that altruists keep trying to ignore those things and only blame Americans?

I am bothered because so many people want America to appologize for its wealth and for its military power without ever acknowledging that America is by far the greatest and (overall) freest nation in world history. Every nation has attrocities in its past, but America is different because it has greatness and most importantly, the enshrining of the concept of individual rights (and by implication, the notion that reason and not physical force is man's means of survival). America, in terms of its founding and its implicit principles, is monumental.

Instead of an insulting memorial, could we please build a monument to celebrate the concept of individual rights and freedom? I know we already have the Statue of Liberty, but I'd much rather have another one than a momument that condemns America and completely ignores the greater context of the nation.

Today our problems are caused, not by people adhering to those principles, but their having abandonned them.

 

[Zebo]

Need memorials and reparations IMO.

They never have been compensated, or even promised the terms agreed to like drilling rights for indians and 40 acres and mule for blacks. Both groups continue to suffer to this day because of back tracking on deals by the goverment. Group compensation may be the most efficient way to correct mass injustices they have suffered. From mass genocide to blatant state sponsored official discrimination that ended in the 1960s. Not that long ago and plenty of those victims are still alive.

Compensating todays ancestors for past injustices is justified on the grounds that they are still suffering from the crimes of history. See: Jews who the Germans still pay monies to.

 

[Red Dawn]

Isn't the Mountain Carving of Crazy Horse on North Dakato a Memorial to the American Indians?

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

I voted Yes, Yes, No, No. If Americans don't do enough to publicize and to acknowledge past wrongs, I don't know of a nation or peoples who do. Heck, the American people themselves put an end to slavery, fighting a war against the slaveholders. I can't think of a nation where the populace is quicker to condemn the government and its society for past wrongs. (Slavery existed for millenia, yet so few people give Americans credit for ultimately ending it and for founding a society based, at least implicitly, no the concept of individual rights which was completely inimical to slavery and led to its undoing.)

As for memorials; I don't think we should dwell on it. As far as I know, there isn't anyone alive today who was legally enslaved, and the attacks on the Indians ended decades ago as well. Secondly, what 19th Century Americans did was no worse than what people in other nations have done nor any worse than what the victims of the actions probably would have done had the tables been reversed.

I am bothered because so many people want America to appologize for its wealth and for its military power without ever acknowledging that America is by far the greatest and (overall) freest nation in world history. Every nation has attrocities in its past, but America is different because it has greatness and most importantly, the enshrining of the concept of individual rights (and by implication, the notion that reason and not physical force is man's means of survival). America, in terms of its founding and its implicit principles, is monumental.

Instead of an insulting memorial, could we please build a monument to celebrate the concept of individual rights and freedom? I know we already have the Statue of Liberty, but I'd much rather have another one than a momument that condemns America and completely ignores the greater context of the nation.



Today are problems are caused, not by people adhering to those principles, but their having abandonned.

Your ignorance of American history is as breathtaking as your acceptance of patriotic dogma.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

You seem to want to make a right out of two wrongs. Africans need to deal with their own history if they enslaved each other. That doesn't mean we can ignore our history.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Need memorials and reparations IMO.

They never have been compensated, or even promised the terms agreed to like drilling rights for indians and 40 acres and mule for blacks. Both groups continue to suffer to this day because of back tracking on deals by the goverment. Group compensation may be the most efficient way to correct mass injustices they have suffered. From mass genocide to blatant state sponsored official discrimination that ended in the 1960s. Not that long ago and plenty of those victims are still alive.

Why don't we offer to put volunteers who want reparations back in the position they would have been in but for the attrocities and everything else related to them?

After we pay out some reparations, could we take back all of the benefits that the descendants of these people received from having lived in a modern day free society? Could we sacrifice some of the Indian volunteers to the Aztec gods? Could we enslave some of the Africans just as they would have been enslaved had they remained in an untouched Africa? What if we executed some of the Africans since modern day Africans still slaughter each other (see Rwanda)?

Can we take back all of the benefits of modern day medicine that the volunteers received over the years? I mean, presumably many have benefited from cures and treatments for diseases that their primative cultures never could have conceived of. (Remember...presumably these vounteers, whose tribal ancestors' lives hadn't advanced or changed for centuries...would still be living the way they did five hundred years ago today.)

With that in mind, what would be the nature of the reparations? For the American Indians I suppose we could take a chunk of arable land, build a wall around it, remove all forms of technology from it, and just deposit the volunteers there with knives, bows, and arrows and tell them that they are free to farm the land, hunt and gather, and congregate into groups and kill each other. For the Africans I suppose we could take a piece of land in Africa, build a wall around it, give them spears and mud huts and tell them that they are free to kill and enslave each other.

Sadly, real reparations--really putting people back into the place they would have been but for the attrocities--are impossible and also undesirable.

My advice to those who feel victimized--be happy--be happy that you live in modern America where the government does recognize the concept of individual rights and where other members of your ethnic and racial group are not trying to enslave you or kill you. Be happy that you can partake of the medical technology that comes from Western philosophy. Be happy that you have been introduced to Western philosophy--the notion that reality exists as an objective absolute, that reason is man's means of knowledge, that the world is knowable, and that individualism and individual rights are good and should be protected.

Almost every other nation and culture in world history has committed similar attrocities. America is unique because it led the way in opposing such attrocities. Those who call out for reparations and monuments want to ignore the truth. They want to spit on the nation's heritage as standing for civilization, humanitarianism, and individual rights. Yes, mistakes have been made and continue to be made, but by far the nation's overwhelming character is one of humanitarianism and individual rights. Heck, I cannot believe how charitable and altruistic Americans are.

Someone had to come out and say it and set the record straight. The world has suffered enough from an orgy of irrationality, religious mysticism, and altruism (and it will continue to do so).

America is not just another country nor another collection of savages. Rather, it is the nation of the Enlightenment--it is the nation that led the way in bringing reason and freedom the world. Never--never forget.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: BBond

Your ignorance of American history is as breathtaking as your acceptance of patriotic dogma.

What specifically do you find dogmatic and ignorant? Are you suggesting that it was not America that brought freedom to the world, but Soviet Russia or primative tribes? Our freedom came from Africa and American Indians in your view? It was Africans and American Indians who helped to spread the concept of individual rights, freeing hundreds of millions of people around the world?

No where in any of my posts have I denied that Americans have committed attrocities and wrongs in the past. To the degree that they had done so, they were unAmerican.

 

[Emultra]

Americans need to go back to their foundations, restore and reinstate the constitution and complete the American Revolution.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Emultra
Americans need to go back to their foundations, restore and reinstate the constitution and complete the American Revolution.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Emultra
Americans need to go back to their foundations, restore and reinstate the constitution and complete the American Revolution.

I agree that our nation has a great many problems and that changes are needed, but what specifically do you think we need to do to "complete the American Revolution"? What you say sounds good, but its so ambiguous it has little meaning. Isn't our Constitution currently "instated"? Heck, the original Constitution allowed for slavery.

I'd like to see a change to increase the strength of personal liberties. I'd like to see the Constitution amended to make it impossible for the government to fund or to promote religion and philosophy in general (goodbye to most government funded public service ads). I'd like to see the Constitution amended to completely eradicate consentual "crimes" that do not constitute a direct or even indirect initiation of physical force against other people, such as adult prostitution, voluntary drug use, and voluntary assisted suicide. A balanced budget amendment, with an exception for extreme wartime conditions (such as for WWII, not the current conflict) would also be good. I'd also like to see the Constitution amended to say that it should be interpreted in light of the purpose of the government being "the promotion and protection of the rational self interest of the American people."

Also, the decision in Gideon v. Wainwright (sp?) where the Supreme Court held that indigent defendants should be provided legal counsel should be enshrined in the Constitution, with the added provision that defendants should be afforded adequate and properly financed legal counsel, and also that courts need to consider new evidence if it would be compelling enough to overturn a verdict of guilt. (Prosecutors fighting against convicts requests for DNA testing when the results could prove their innocence is just attrocious.)

 

[PatboyX]

symbols dont resonate with me very strongly so it is hard for me to judge if it would actually matter to people.

 

[PlasticJesus]

Running out of room on the national mall?

I'm sure you must know that there are a few less acres now than there was this time last year, what with the opening of the National Museum of the American Indian.

Heard a good piece about this on NPR last year. Apparently this is not another white man's museum, but was an effort undertaken by representatives of the apparently hundreds of Indian tribes we have here in the United States. Thousands of artifacts apparently.

This is on the mall. Did you know it was there? Who knew it was there? Who didn't know it was there?

 

[Infohawk]

I have been to the native americna meuseum. It's on the side of the mall. I don't think it quite serves the same purpose as a traditional monument.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: BBond

Your ignorance of American history is as breathtaking as your acceptance of patriotic dogma.

What specifically do you find dogmatic and ignorant? Are you suggesting that it was not America that brought freedom to the world, but Soviet Russia or primative tribes? Our freedom came from Africa and American Indians in your view? It was Africans and American Indians who helped to spread the concept of individual rights, freeing hundreds of millions of people around the world?

No where in any of my posts have I denied that Americans have committed attrocities and wrongs in the past. To the degree that they had done so, they were unAmerican.

Yeah, right. America invented freedom. We rescued "primitive tribes" by doing them the favor of enslaving them for a few centuries then denying them basic civil rights for a century or so more.

You're a brainwashed racist moron and no amount of edification is ever going to change that. So if you don't mind, I won't waste my time with the likes of you.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

I personally think you're missing the point of a memorial. They are monuments to past achievement and sacrafices; they aren't appologies to people that have been wronged.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu
I personally think you're missing the point of a memorial. They are monuments to past achievement and sacrafices; they aren't appologies to people that have been wronged.

No, they can also recognize past traumas. Hence the holocaust memorial.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu
I personally think you're missing the point of a memorial. They are monuments to past achievement and sacrafices; they aren't appologies to people that have been wronged.

No, they can also recognize past traumas. Hence the holocaust memorial.

As if slavery and genocide weren't sacrifices.

:roll:

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Isn't the Mountain Carving of Crazy Horse on North Dakato a Memorial to the American Indians?

It is a memorial to American Indians BY American Indians. The US government isn't involved. Or at least they didn't condone or condemn it.

I don't think most people realize how far this would go with calming a great many ill feelings that still fester within many American Indians, and Blacks. An olive branch that is permanent is something we have not recieved from the likes of the US government who served us salvation from the barrel of a gun.

Besides those who do not know the past are condemned to repeat it.

 

[PlasticJesus]

I'd be awful curious to know just what you think this memorial to the Indians should look like. Do memorials that recognize past traumas look different than say the Lincoln Memorial? Do we have white guys on horseback shooting Indians or something like that?

Maybe I shouldn't speak on any of it because I'm not one who's willing to stand in line to kiss the ass of anybody and everybody who perceives that they've somehow been wronged. I can't imagine that you could truly satisfy those folks. You build a memorial and I'm sure that that's still not enough.

I kind of feel that maybe the best way to honor a people is to educate yourselves about them. Seems to me that a museum does this more nicely than something like that Crazy Horse mountain sculpture mentioned above.

Are you American Indian? What did you think of the museum?

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: PlasticJesus


Maybe I shouldn't speak on any of it because I'm not one who's willing to stand in line to kiss the ass of anybody and everybody who perceives that they've somehow been wronged.

...

I kind of feel that maybe the best way to honor a people is to educate yourselves about them.

Perceived wrong???

You have the nerve to make that ridiculous statement then follow it by advising people to educate themselves???

Unbelievable.

:roll: