Does the U.S. need factories to be an economic power?

[Acanthus]

Every major empire has outsourced the vast majority of its labor shortly before falling.

The only exception is being conquered by a larger empire.

 

[Trianon]

**shakes head at thread**

Everyone can just be doctors, lawyers, computer IT guys and engineers. Problem solved.

Yeah all 300 million will start showing and successfully selling their creativity, even those of below average intelligence

 

[sandorski]

When every American becomes a CEO, they'll be screaming for the Minimum Wage to be raised.

 

[BoberFett]

So much fail not even funny.

All wealth comes from either making something, mining something, or grwing something. Everything else is dependent on those.

Nevermind that apple does manufacture, the only reason we are able to afford iphones is credit which will run out one way or another. Either sudden stop or hyperinflation. Then you will see what a nation looks like that does not produce what it consumes.

BTW USA is still #1 in manufacturing, growing and mining but even so not what we consume which is why we run debt.

Exactly. Without denigrating other value-add professions, all commerce begins with one of those three actions. Sure, lawyers and salesmen and IT and managers all have reasons to exist, but they don't exist without somebody growing, mining, or building something first. They're value-add, not value-create.

I see that and wonder what we are making? I really think that the processed food that we make so much is what propels us in manufacturing vs the rest of the world. That and maybe big ticket items like planes and military (oh and we do make cars here too - for now). What can I buy in 99% of the stores out there that's made in the US? Can you guys name every day items (TV's? PC's, clocks, clothes, shoes, faucets, tools, toothbrushes, hair brushes, monitors, etc x millions). Manufacturing in the US provides much more than just manual labor jobs. There are millions of supporting engineering and R&D jobs that are associated with the very processes that we make stuff here. Move those factories offshore and those jobs go with them. The people who build and work on robot cells, machine tools, industrial sensors and supplies...all gone in one fell swoop.

Not to mention that I read that over 50% of R&D money in the US comes from manufacturers here (can't validate that stat. as I don't know how to quantify it..just passing along).

Step #6....here we come.

I've wondered the same thing. Certain people around here love to talk about how the US is one of the top manufacturers in the world, but I just don't see it. Autos and food must be a massive portion of it.

 

[yllus]

I've wondered the same thing. Certain people around here love to talk about how the US is one of the top manufacturers in the world, but I just don't see it. Autos and food must be a massive portion of it.

Auto definitely is, but you guys are doing well in general. Hell, you're even kicking butt exporting right back to China.

U.S. manufacturing makes quiet comeback

In a remarkable turnaround, the sector is prospering by winning orders from emerging markets, its supposed nemesis.

Consider one unexpected tidbit Mr. Tal uncovered in his statistical sleuthing: He found that one of the fastest growing U.S. export categories consists of selling toys to China – a market the Chinese are supposed to dominate. U.S. sales in this niche are surging, rising from only $14-million (U.S.) in 2008 to $240-million in the first nine months of this year, a staggering 17-fold increase.

...

Merchandise exports from the United States have risen at an annual rate of more than 10 per cent during the first three quarters of this year.

Even more remarkable, sales to emerging markets like China have surged a staggering 45 per cent since the beginning of 2009, more than twice the pace observed in sales to developed countries. Sales to emerging markets have offset weakness in merchandise shipments to Europe, which slipped more than 3 per cent on an annual basis in the third quarter.

“Years from now, when the fog clears, it will become apparent that the big recession gave birth to a profound change in the structure of the U.S. manufacturing sector – a process that is currently in full swing,” Mr. Tal wrote.

U.S. companies have been able to win export orders because they’ve cut costs, introduced innovative products and increased productivity at a faster clip than any other advanced country over the past decade, lagging only South Korea and Taiwan. “The manufacturing sector in the U.S. is now recapturing lost market share in emerging markets, even at the expense of Germany, still the leading exporter to these countries,” Mr. Tal wrote.

 

[Jhhnn]

Righties are sooo lame.

The reason that the incomes of the financial elite have far outstripped those of everybody else in this country is that they're offshoring production for cheaper labor at an incredible rate, leaving americans unemployed. Instead of wages and assets, workers get bigger lines of credit and longer to pay, at every level including the govt.

It'd be a different matter if we were smart enough to tax our wealthy at a rate sufficient to offset the losses by american workers, and to restrain middle class greed.

We voted that down when we elected Ronnie, and we've been living in a fools' paradise ever since. The 2010 US balance of payments deficit will total ~$500B for 2010, and our wealthiest citizens take a big cut off the top of that. They love it, because govt borrowing holds up the value of the dollar, enabling more offshoring, and because that deficit represents increased profits for them.

they're now holding what's left of the economy hostage to ongoing taxcuts for themselves, and the longer we let that continue, the greater their power becomes. Before it's over, we'll probably be happy to be abused, just so we'll get something, anything, from the power elite. Rank and file Righties are already there, begging for it, but some of the rest of us remain uppity- we think this is still a democracy, despite all the evidence to the contrary...

 

[Engineer]

Auto definitely is, but you guys are doing well in general. Hell, you're even kicking butt exporting right back to China.

U.S. manufacturing makes quiet comeback

butt kicking?

Edit: Nice jump to around 250 million in exports of toys to China. To that note, China exported 16.1 Billion in toys to the US in 2003.

300 million people import 16.1 billion (in 2003 no less) vs 1.3 billion people importing 250 million.

Just like Fox News....Fair..balanced.

 

[Zorkorist]

Yes, we absolutely need manufacturing, and we need to abolish the minimum wage and get rid of regulations on business.

-John

 

[1prophet]

No, we don't need factories, and factories in a general sense aren't even that desirable. They are dirty, dangerous places for people to work that cause environmental damage and burden our health system.

Of course there will always be factories in the US, and you could make the case for a national security issue if we lost too much of our base, but seriously, factories suck.

So Americans can enjoy their favorite cheap product at the expense of someone else's health and environmental damage, and make sure that there is some strong authoritarian union busting type in charge, we don't need them little brown or yellow people getting uppity and asking for anything similar to OSHA, EPA, or Labor rights like we have here since it's bad for profits.

 

[Zorkorist]

Don't know if ya'll have seen this spread...

Article...

http://www.zoriah.net/blog/2009/04/guest-photographerphotojournalist-gmb-akash-child-labor.html

-John

 

[Zebo]

Righties are sooo lame.

The reason that the incomes of the financial elite have far outstripped those of everybody else in this country is that they're offshoring production for cheaper labor at an incredible rate, leaving americans unemployed. Instead of wages and assets, workers get bigger lines of credit and longer to pay, at every level including the govt.

It'd be a different matter if we were smart enough to tax our wealthy at a rate sufficient to offset the losses by american workers, and to restrain middle class greed.

We voted that down when we elected Ronnie, and we've been living in a fools' paradise ever since. The 2010 US balance of payments deficit will total ~$500B for 2010, and our wealthiest citizens take a big cut off the top of that. They love it, because govt borrowing holds up the value of the dollar, enabling more offshoring, and because that deficit represents increased profits for them.

they're now holding what's left of the economy hostage to ongoing taxcuts for themselves, and the longer we let that continue, the greater their power becomes. Before it's over, we'll probably be happy to be abused, just so we'll get something, anything, from the power elite. Rank and file Righties are already there, begging for it, but some of the rest of us remain uppity- we think this is still a democracy, despite all the evidence to the contrary...

Credit is not doing anyone a favor. I often chuckle at people who say "I GOT APPROVED"!!! They even advertise this theme on bank commercials.

People are generally stupid I'm convinced. I used to be open minded until I saw that.

Rest of your post is more of same stupid actions.

This credit below won't be able to continue forever, then the pain starts for stupid.

 

[Zorkorist]

The point is, obviously that if fathers and mothers are making money, then children won't be forced to make money.

-John

 

[manimal]

I've said many times a country that cannot provide for itself is no longer a country.

Ah yes the US is basically a dead beat dad with baby mamma drama...

 

[Zorkorist]

It sure as hell isn't providing for itself. Witness the National Debt.

-John

 

[Zebo]

Exactly. Without denigrating other value-add professions, all commerce begins with one of those three actions. Sure, lawyers and salesmen and IT and managers all have reasons to exist, but they don't exist without somebody growing, mining, or building something first. They're value-add, not value-create.



I've wondered the same thing. Certain people around here love to talk about how the US is one of the top manufacturers in the world, but I just don't see it. Autos and food must be a massive portion of it.

You don't need engineers, accountants, marketers, or even bankers without product. None generate wealth they strip off real wealth which is consumption goods and assets.


We are #1 manufacturing but won't be for long. Defense goodies are about 250 Billion of it. There is CAT, MS, Intel, Boeing, Pharma, Autos and a bunch of other stuff.

USA is about 1.5T
China about 1.2T
Germany about 0.8T

Thing is China went from peanuts just 15 years ago. Germany was half. We were higher....stay tuned.

I want us to be more like Germany per capita, a net exporter, and envy of Europe. Not Spain or other deadbeats. Afraid we are going wrong direction.

As an American I am greedy want the best to be #1 by miles and miles and off-shoring wealth production is not the way to do it. Most people understand that, especially China.

 

[irwincur]

I would note that the main reason it seems that the US is producing less, is simply because less of the workforce is needed to produce. Over just the last 20 year efficiency in production has shot through the roof.

It is the old phrase, work smarter not harder. Let China work hard, for low profits, and poor conditions, they require many more people to do the work of one empowered American industrial worker. I see factories every day that used to employ hundreds or thousands that are producing as much or more with what would be considered a skeleton crew.

Sadly, there really isn't a way around this. The world needs ditch diggers, but in this century that may not be the case. Within the next 50 years it is reasonable to expect that most industrial jobs in the US will be totally automated. Shortly after the rest of the world will follow. The crisis then becomes, what to do with those who have no skills or do not want to have the skills. Unfortuantely, there are a lot of people with ZERO ambition, and they are staring down the barrel of a gun.

 

[Zorkorist]

I won't even begin to beliieve you, irwin, as Detroit, and car production is gone.

You may have been able to argue that we are producing things, but when Detroit is gone, it is easy to see we are not.

-John

 

[manimal]

You don't need engineers, accountants, marketers, or even bankers without product. None generate wealth they strip off real wealth which is consumption goods and assets.


We are #1 manufacturing but won't be for long. Defense goodies are about 250 Billion of it. There is CAT, MS, Intel, Pharma, Autos and a bunch of other stuff.

USA is about 1.5T
China about 1.2T
Germany about 0.8T

Thing is China went from peanuts just 15 years ago. Germany was half. We were higher....stay tuned.

I want us to be more like Germany, a net exporter, and envy of Europe. Not Spain or other deadbeats. Afraid we are going wrong direction.

Not really, the thing about Germany is that the engineering they do is high precision-high quality. Their workers are payed a fair wage and they for the most part live good lives. The poor are taken care of and the health care is acceptable by most countries standards.

The engineering and production base is still relatively strong by your own metrics and the rebirth of the auto companies should offset at least some of the losses in mfg...

Wages are rising in China and Germany alike and even places like Taiwan , Vietnam, Korea and the Bric all getting huge standard of living increases.

The cynic in me and the conservative wants to see the system break down and reinvent itself in a blaze of innovation and change but the other side thinks the poor and elderly will bear the biggest burden. Socially what has separated the US from the rest of the world has been the humane and caring aspect of their social policy. If you look at the time since SS started the standard of living has only improved or remained consistent for the elderly as a result of SS and UE..Standards for poor people improved for generations...

Mfg has to stay important for the long term health of our economy. Losing a large part of the middle class base would seriously wound the countries ability to consume since raw consumption and little else frankly is the largest metric to judge our economy by.


Is capitalism really about the sellers or is it about the buyers? Who advocates for the sellers and who advocates for the buyers?

 

[Zebo]

irwin When there is a s500 in every driveway you can talk about automation in meantime there is unlimited demand (always will be). When we have balanced trade you can talk about automation. This is nothing more than profit taking at lower/middle class Americans expense. Only an idiot does not see that.

 

[Zorkorist]

It's nothing more than Government stopping Americans from succeeding.

Execisve regulation, execisve, taxarion, killed Detroit.

-John

 

[Zebo]

Not really, the thing about Germany is that the engineering they do is high precision-high quality. Their workers are payed a fair wage and they for the most part live good lives. The poor are taken care of and the health care is acceptable by most countries standards.

The engineering and production base is still relatively strong by your own metrics and the rebirth of the auto companies should offset at least some of the losses in mfg...

Wages are rising in China and Germany alike and even places like Taiwan , Vietnam, Korea and the Bric all getting huge standard of living increases.

The cynic in me and the conservative wants to see the system break down and reinvent itself in a blaze of innovation and change but the other side thinks the poor and elderly will bear the biggest burden. Socially what has separated the US from the rest of the world has been the humane and caring aspect of their social policy. If you look at the time since SS started the standard of living has only improved or remained consistent for the elderly as a result of SS and UE..Standards for poor people improved for generations...

Mfg has to stay important for the long term health of our economy. Losing a large part of the middle class base would seriously wound the countries ability to consume since raw consumption and little else frankly is the largest metric to judge our economy by.


Is capitalism really about the sellers or is it about the buyers? Who advocates for the sellers and who advocates for the buyers?

Tell me what you do and I'll prove you are just stripping off one of the three. I sell booze. I don't make the booze or cut the crops r the bottles or the cardboard but I'm just a cog in getting something that was grown and manufactured to market. Problem is it all starts there without which you look like chad. Not too many jobs in chad.

 

[irwincur]

irwin When there is a s500 in every driveway you can talk about automation in meantime there is unlimited demand (always will be). When we have balanced trade you can talk about automation. This is nothing more than profit taking at lower/middle class Americans expense. Only an idiot does not see that.

How do you explain actual real world numbers in regards to how much is being produced by how many people? Every year, workers become more efficient, mostly due to the expansion of technology into the industrial workplace.

Only an idiot would miss the fact that the average worker today can produce a hell of a lot more than an average worker 20 or 30 years ago. It is common sense, and this has been the case since the start of the industrial revolution.

 

[manimal]

Tell me what you do and I'll prove you are just stripping off one of the three. I sell booze. I don't make the booze or cut the crops r the bottles or the cardboard but I'm just a cog in getting something that was grown and manufactured to market. Problem is it all starts there without which you look like chad. Not too many jobs in chad.

I am an Opera Singer so I create Art and I have side businesses where I own parts of a Granite importer and part of a wine shop. I also consult on the side and direct from time to time. I partially agree with your stark definition of wealth but services in my opinion are generators of wealth as well.

If you look at the different periods that we have been trough the transition from farming to the industrial revolution created more wealth and hope than any before it. The 50s and beyond brought services to the forefront of innovation and change. The next big period has already been started with the experiences revolution. Look at the world around us, its interactive, changing before our eyes with innovation coming in the forms of expression and the mediums they reside on. The coming bubble with be private sector technological mash ups from pure scienctific advances or vice versa. For instance scientists at MIT created a "Minority Report" style controller using a Kinect...ya saw that on DT..

Disney is a perfect example of a Experience generator...they had a focused singular message with near perfect execution and total market penetration. When they began to lose their way they began to made R-rated movies with varying levels of quality and over saturation with parks going up in China etc and Miramar making sexy movies...

If we dont embrace technology and create a innovation framework for advancement of private sector and government funded ideas and entities we will surely be lost. Look at what Singapore and Vietnam have done in bringing talent and their ideas to their countries with delicate intervention and support of private companies.

We also have to realize that every other country like China gives their businesses advantages in many different forms and being completely laissez faire leaves our corporations out on an island unable to compete in a fixed field....

I do complete agree with you Zebo on the erosion of the mfg base and its effect on our future. Until we have robust economy driven by big healthy demand we are doomed. the problem is we arent going to get that demand the way things are going now..

demand will bring jobs..

 

[ShawnD1]

**shakes head at thread**

Everyone can just be doctors, lawyers, computer IT guys and engineers. Problem solved.

Totally. Then we'll make up the trade deficit by selling law services overseas to.... hmmmm wait a second :hmm:


I know Engineer is joking, but seriously the rest of you guys need to ask what creates trade surpluses and what creates trade deficits. Why is China getting so powerful? Because they make things and have a trade surplus. Why is Canada doing well? They make things and have a trade surplus. Why is Germany doing good? They make things and have a trade surplus. What is potential problem that Warren Buffet has warned about numerous times? The US imports way more than it produces and the current standard of living relies on debt. It's basically like borrowing a million dollars form the bank then throwing it around because "weee it's free money". Sorry but no it's not.

Here's Warren Buffet's cute little story about thriftville vs squanderville.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DvuyvuHmJI

 

[Jhhnn]

How do you explain actual real world numbers in regards to how much is being produced by how many people? Every year, workers become more efficient, mostly due to the expansion of technology into the industrial workplace.

Only an idiot would miss the fact that the average worker today can produce a hell of a lot more than an average worker 20 or 30 years ago. It is common sense, and this has been the case since the start of the industrial revolution.

All of which changes nothing wrt the need for people to have jobs to participate in the economy. No job, no participation, unless you're a member of the investor class.

All of this would be peachy if people shared in the fruits of automation and offshoring, but they don't. They don't own the company or the profits except in terms of wages received. When it's Chinese receiving much lower wages instead of Americans, and American capitalists taking a higher and higher percentage of national income as a result, it'll ultimately tear us apart as a society, actually destroy our ability to consume and support the economy as we know it.

Grover Norquist & Co won't give a damn- they'll have their chauffeur park the armored limousine on your face if it's convenient...