Does the next generation value the sacrifice of war?

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
This was written by the former head of the Motion Picture Associate of America. Anyone who watched the Oscars will remember this guy and his usually boring speeches.

I think he makes a good point about the next generation and their indifference to war and the sacrifices made by our soldiers.

Let's see if we can keep this thread on topic and not turn it into yet another bash Bush about Iraq thread. He does make some interesting points.
Highest among them, does the young generation of American appreciate the sacrifices of those who came before them?
Does the next generation value the sacrifice of war?
There is a piece of sadness that the election failed to debate. It is the lamentable detachment by the young among us to freedom's history.
The press has reported that Clint Eastwood's Flags of Our Fathers, his masterly recreation of courage and fidelity to duty and country exhibited by young Marines in the bloodiest battle of World War II, has gone largely unattended by the youngsters of this day.

Watching this movie, watching ordinary young men performing extraordinary feats of heroism, broke my heart. They put to hazard their own lives not to win medals, but because their country was in danger. Why, then, a casual indifference to this story by so many young people? Maybe it's because we have been so benumbed by war, particularly this Iraq war, and because so few youngsters have worn a uniform. A movie about a battle a half a century ago carries no umbilical connection to them. That's understandable. But it ought not to be.

Perhaps some parents might want to do what I did years ago. When my son was about 14, I took him to Omaha Beach and the Normandy American Cemetery and Memorial in France. We stood on the bluff above the beach in the same spot where Nazi troops had dug in. They had poured rifle, mortar and machine gunfire onto the U.S. troops clambering out of their landing crafts. They cut them down on the sand and in the water that seemed to still run red with the blood flowing so wantonly on that invasion day, June 6, 1944.

Remembering bravery

My son was struck with how close it was from the bluff to the beach. I said, "John it was very close, but remember those young boys never turned back, not one of them. They never turned back. They kept coming."

Then we walked a short distance to the American Cemetery. It is on land a grateful France granted to the United States for use in perpetuity. The Stars and Stripes flies over this cathedral of the dead. We turned our gaze to the grave markers, row upon row upon row, as far as the eye could see. There, I told my son, were buried 9,387 young men, many of whom were in between the ages of 18 and their early 20s, "just a few years older than you are right now," I said.

We walked among the markers laid out in serried ranks. I asked my son to read the inscriptions on those grave markers, the bland finalities of a young warrior's life - name, rank, outfit and the day he died - lives ended before they could be lived.

Debt of gratitude

Finally, I stopped and looked full face at my son. "John, I want you to know why I brought you here." He looked puzzled. I said, "I wanted you to understand that these boys, who never knew you, nonetheless gave you the greatest gift one human can give another. They gave you the gift of freedom. They bought and paid for that gift in blood and bravery. They made it possible for you and millions like you to never have to test your own courage to see how you would react when the dagger is at the nation's belly and death stares you right in the face. You owe them a debt you will never be able to repay."

My son seemed genuinely moved. We never spoke about this again until one day years later, he phoned me. "Dad, last night I saw Saving Private Ryan. You were right. They never turned back, not a one. They kept coming." His voice trembled as he spoke.

Somehow, my own voice cracked a bit with gratitude. My son remembered. May God grant that every boy and girl in this free and loving land never forget the gift of young boys so long ago, a gift given to generations of Americans who were yet to be born.

Jack Valenti flew 51 combat missions in World War II as a pilot commander of a B-25 twin-engine attack bomber with the 12th Air Force in Europe. He also is former chairman of the Motion Picture Association of America.
 

jrenz

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
1,788
0
0
It's not cool to respect America and those who died for it. It's cooler to hate America these days.
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,263
202
106
If the cause is a just one, unlike the most of the crap the US has been getting involved with since Vietnam. Just this weekend I was talking with my grandfather who is a WWII Vet, and he feels the same way.

You ask that this not turn in a Bush / Iraq thread, but do you realize this is the biggest reason enlistment numbers are down? Kind of hard to separate the animosity most people have to current events and what the article discusses.

Also, as far as Clint Eastwood's movie, most in my age group and older have seen so many war flicks, to have yet another makes it not so appealing. How many WWII movies have been made? I can point out about 20 or so that I have seen, so why do I need to see another that covers the same subject matter yet again?
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
If the cause is a just one, unlike the most of the crap the US has been getting involved with since Vietnam. Just this weekend I was talking with my grandfather who is a WWII Vet, and he feels the same way.

Yup, pretty much. Americans were overwhelmingly supportive of the Afghanistan invasion, because intelligence (for what it's worth) told us that's where al Qaeda was hiding. Because Bush decided to use 9/11 as a springboard to invade Iraq under what we now know were false pretenses, people don't see the deaths of Americans soliders as a sacrifice, but a waste.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
I find it extremely interesting (and revealing) that the piece opens with a complaint that not enough attention has been paid to Clint Eastwood's war movie. Clearly a lot of discussion could center around the popularity of that movie, but for an article about the supposed lack of respect for the military exhibited by the next generation, it seems a poor choice. But it's still interesting, as it reveals just where this author and his ilk go off track.

Far from respecting the sacrifice made by men who gave it all for their country, the author and people like him have fetishized military service to be a loose collection of icons and slogans. They are the type that visit the Vietnam memorial and think the point is to look somber at the monument itself, as if the memorial IS the point. While war movies are entertaining and even thought provoking, no one who really "gets it" would think them a respectable stand-in for actual acts of valor and sacrifice. And the people who make the most noise about "respecting military service" seem far more interested in making a rhetorical point and beating their opponents over the head than anything else, if soldiers weren't a convenient method of doing so, something else would be quickly chosen. The irony is that real sacrifices of real heroes are being manipulated by self-important elitists trying to give themselves an ego-stroking pat on the back, hardly a good way to honor the memory of the heroes of Normandy.
 

TheBDB

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2002
3,176
0
0
Young people aren't watching a movie -> they don't appreciate the sacrifices of war.

That seems to be quite a leap. More likely he is idealizing the patriotism of World War 2, which doesn't compare with the current situation.
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
1
76
Invasion of Iraq/Operation Barbarossa - both preemptive wars of aggression

D-Day= valid fight against an aggressive militaristic nation that had started wars of aggression

In other words the invasion of Iraq and D-Day are not comparable in the context of sacrifice of war. As aggressive warfare is the lowest form of barbarism it says much about people who put "value" in such stock.


 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
This was written by the former head of the Motion Picture Associate of America. Anyone who watched the Oscars will remember this guy and his usually boring speeches.

I think he makes a good point about the next generation and their indifference to war and the sacrifices made by our soldiers.

Let's see if we can keep this thread on topic and not turn it into yet another bash Bush about Iraq thread. He does make some interesting points.
Highest among them, does the young generation of American appreciate the sacrifices of those who came before them?
Does the next generation value the sacrifice of war?
There is a piece of sadness that the election failed to debate. It is the lamentable detachment by the young among us to freedom's history.
The press has reported that Clint Eastwood's Flags of Our Fathers, his masterly recreation of courage and fidelity to duty and country exhibited by young Marines in the bloodiest battle of World War II, has gone largely unattended by the youngsters of this day.

Watching this movie, watching ordinary young men performing extraordinary feats of heroism, broke my heart. They put to hazard their own lives not to win medals, but because their country was in danger. Why, then, a casual indifference to this story by so many young people? Maybe it's because we have been so benumbed by war, particularly this Iraq war, and because so few youngsters have worn a uniform. A movie about a battle a half a century ago carries no umbilical connection to them. That's understandable. But it ought not to be.

Perhaps some parents might want to do what I did years ago. When my son was about 14, I took him to Omaha Beach and the Normandy American Cemetery and Memorial in France. We stood on the bluff above the beach in the same spot where Nazi troops had dug in. They had poured rifle, mortar and machine gunfire onto the U.S. troops clambering out of their landing crafts. They cut them down on the sand and in the water that seemed to still run red with the blood flowing so wantonly on that invasion day, June 6, 1944.

Remembering bravery

My son was struck with how close it was from the bluff to the beach. I said, "John it was very close, but remember those young boys never turned back, not one of them. They never turned back. They kept coming."

Then we walked a short distance to the American Cemetery. It is on land a grateful France granted to the United States for use in perpetuity. The Stars and Stripes flies over this cathedral of the dead. We turned our gaze to the grave markers, row upon row upon row, as far as the eye could see. There, I told my son, were buried 9,387 young men, many of whom were in between the ages of 18 and their early 20s, "just a few years older than you are right now," I said.

We walked among the markers laid out in serried ranks. I asked my son to read the inscriptions on those grave markers, the bland finalities of a young warrior's life - name, rank, outfit and the day he died - lives ended before they could be lived.

Debt of gratitude

Finally, I stopped and looked full face at my son. "John, I want you to know why I brought you here." He looked puzzled. I said, "I wanted you to understand that these boys, who never knew you, nonetheless gave you the greatest gift one human can give another. They gave you the gift of freedom. They bought and paid for that gift in blood and bravery. They made it possible for you and millions like you to never have to test your own courage to see how you would react when the dagger is at the nation's belly and death stares you right in the face. You owe them a debt you will never be able to repay."

My son seemed genuinely moved. We never spoke about this again until one day years later, he phoned me. "Dad, last night I saw Saving Private Ryan. You were right. They never turned back, not a one. They kept coming." His voice trembled as he spoke.

Somehow, my own voice cracked a bit with gratitude. My son remembered. May God grant that every boy and girl in this free and loving land never forget the gift of young boys so long ago, a gift given to generations of Americans who were yet to be born.

Jack Valenti flew 51 combat missions in World War II as a pilot commander of a B-25 twin-engine attack bomber with the 12th Air Force in Europe. He also is former chairman of the Motion Picture Association of America.

"Highest among them, does the young generation of American appreciate the sacrifices of those who came before them?
Does the next generation value the sacrifice of war? "

I don't think it is the younger generation with the problem...

The same people around for Vietnam have allowed the Iraqi war. They learned nothing about the sacrifices of war and the consequences of starting a war for political agenda.

The young people aren't enlisting(hopefully) because they understand that you are likely to die in a war. Seems like they get it to me!


Most important from your quote, "They gave you the gift of freedom. They bought and paid for that gift in blood and bravery.." This is what the Patriot Act, NSA spying WITHOUT FISA WARRANTS, etc. have TAKEN AWAY in the name of "freedom." How do you take away freedom to give freedom!? It isn't the young people doing this! It is the older generation! You know.. the ones messing up this country through their rule.
 

HombrePequeno

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
4,657
0
0
Because younguns aren't flocking to one WWII movie, they don't value the sacrifice of war? I recall Saving Private Ryan being pretty popular back in the day and Band of Brothers was quite the hit mini-series.

Could it possibly have been because of poor advertising? This thread is actually the first time I've heard of the movie.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: jrenz
It's not cool to respect America and those who died for it. It's cooler to hate America these days.

whats the basis for this. Patriotism is not blind servitude, especially where the leadership is lost.
 
Aug 1, 2006
1,308
0
0
Unjust, unnecessary wars based on personal vendettas will do that to a generation. I hope people really do turn their backs on the Bush doctrine of war based on school yard idiocy and electing idiots into the Presidency. What could possibly be wrong with that.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
This whole thread is balderdash.
Americans signed up for the military in droves after 9-11.
Americans are willing to fight and die to protect our country.
It is not surprising that Eastwoods films are not getting the box office they were expected to get. Americans are disgusted by the lead up to the Iraq war, and an administration that has repeatedly lied about its reasons. Americans are disgusted by the totally inept leadership we have in fighting in Iraq. And Americans are disgusted by the cavalier attitude towards American deaths by the rich and privileged.
No, Americans fully understand the value of sacrifice of war. And they are willing to make sacrifices. For anything resembling the right reasons. Its just that Iraq is the wrong reason.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
If anyone has truly lost their way and no longer seem to value the sacrifice of war, it's our so-called leaders, who since WWII have never seen a hopeless quagmire they didn't see fit to sink America deeper into. And pre-emptive war? That's the cherry of stupidity that sits on the last 50 years of the U.S. and its various idiotic conflicts. Here's something today's youth could get behind: How about no war? How about spending less on our military so we can take care of our citizens better, educate our young people better and make America a truly great place? You'll never stop terrorism with 100 million dollar fighter jets, or several billion dollar aircraft carriers. Yes, of course we need a military to defend ourselves, but let's not pretend to be "world cop" anymore and spend that money building something up rather than tearing something down.
 
Feb 9, 2005
79
0
0
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
If anyone has truly lost their way and no longer seem to value the sacrifice of war, it's our so-called leaders, who since WWII have never seen a hopeless quagmire they didn't see fit to sink America deeper into. And pre-emptive war? That's the cherry of stupidity that sits on the last 50 years of the U.S. and its various idiotic conflicts. Here's something today's youth could get behind: How about no war? How about spending less on our military so we can take care of our citizens better, educate our young people better and make America a truly great place? You'll never stop terrorism with 100 million dollar fighter jets, or several billion dollar aircraft carriers. Yes, of course we need a military to defend ourselves, but let's not pretend to be "world cop" anymore and spend that money building something up rather than tearing something down.

http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182

 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I find it extremely interesting (and revealing) that the piece opens with a complaint that not enough attention has been paid to Clint Eastwood's war movie. Clearly a lot of discussion could center around the popularity of that movie, but for an article about the supposed lack of respect for the military exhibited by the next generation, it seems a poor choice. But it's still interesting, as it reveals just where this author and his ilk go off track.

Far from respecting the sacrifice made by men who gave it all for their country, the author and people like him have fetishized military service to be a loose collection of icons and slogans. They are the type that visit the Vietnam memorial and think the point is to look somber at the monument itself, as if the memorial IS the point. While war movies are entertaining and even thought provoking, no one who really "gets it" would think them a respectable stand-in for actual acts of valor and sacrifice. And the people who make the most noise about "respecting military service" seem far more interested in making a rhetorical point and beating their opponents over the head than anything else, if soldiers weren't a convenient method of doing so, something else would be quickly chosen. The irony is that real sacrifices of real heroes are being manipulated by self-important elitists trying to give themselves an ego-stroking pat on the back, hardly a good way to honor the memory of the heroes of Normandy.

I think the label you are going for is jingoist.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
Lets sum up the Bush doctrines of Gov'ment,; To Preserve Our Freedoms, We Must Restrict Them; To Save The Country, We Must First Destroy It;, It's Just A Piece Of Paper;, Never Admit To making A Mistake;, If Reality Doesn't Serve your Purpose, Make Somethong Up;, Etc. Etc. Etc.
 

Termagant

Senior member
Mar 10, 2006
765
0
0
People will defiantly be "indifferent" to the "glorious" sacrifices of war when our wars are not related to our defense and are more related to pipe dreams fed by imperialists to a bumbling ignoramus.
 

GroundedSailor

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2001
2,502
0
76
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
This was written by the former head of the Motion Picture Associate of America. Anyone who watched the Oscars will remember this guy and his usually boring speeches.

I think he makes a good point about the next generation and their indifference to war and the sacrifices made by our soldiers.

Let's see if we can keep this thread on topic and not turn it into yet another bash Bush about Iraq thread. He does make some interesting points.
Highest among them, does the young generation of American appreciate the sacrifices of those who came before them?
Does the next generation value the sacrifice of war?
There is a piece of sadness that the election failed to debate. It is the lamentable detachment by the young among us to freedom's history.
The press has reported that Clint Eastwood's Flags of Our Fathers, his masterly recreation of courage and fidelity to duty and country exhibited by young Marines in the bloodiest battle of World War II, has gone largely unattended by the youngsters of this day.

Watching this movie, watching ordinary young men performing extraordinary feats of heroism, broke my heart. They put to hazard their own lives not to win medals, but because their country was in danger. Why, then, a casual indifference to this story by so many young people? Maybe it's because we have been so benumbed by war, particularly this Iraq war, and because so few youngsters have worn a uniform. A movie about a battle a half a century ago carries no umbilical connection to them. That's understandable. But it ought not to be.

Perhaps some parents might want to do what I did years ago. When my son was about 14, I took him to Omaha Beach and the Normandy American Cemetery and Memorial in France. We stood on the bluff above the beach in the same spot where Nazi troops had dug in. They had poured rifle, mortar and machine gunfire onto the U.S. troops clambering out of their landing crafts. They cut them down on the sand and in the water that seemed to still run red with the blood flowing so wantonly on that invasion day, June 6, 1944.

Remembering bravery

My son was struck with how close it was from the bluff to the beach. I said, "John it was very close, but remember those young boys never turned back, not one of them. They never turned back. They kept coming."

Then we walked a short distance to the American Cemetery. It is on land a grateful France granted to the United States for use in perpetuity. The Stars and Stripes flies over this cathedral of the dead. We turned our gaze to the grave markers, row upon row upon row, as far as the eye could see. There, I told my son, were buried 9,387 young men, many of whom were in between the ages of 18 and their early 20s, "just a few years older than you are right now," I said.

We walked among the markers laid out in serried ranks. I asked my son to read the inscriptions on those grave markers, the bland finalities of a young warrior's life - name, rank, outfit and the day he died - lives ended before they could be lived.

Debt of gratitude

Finally, I stopped and looked full face at my son. "John, I want you to know why I brought you here." He looked puzzled. I said, "I wanted you to understand that these boys, who never knew you, nonetheless gave you the greatest gift one human can give another. They gave you the gift of freedom. They bought and paid for that gift in blood and bravery. They made it possible for you and millions like you to never have to test your own courage to see how you would react when the dagger is at the nation's belly and death stares you right in the face. You owe them a debt you will never be able to repay."

My son seemed genuinely moved. We never spoke about this again until one day years later, he phoned me. "Dad, last night I saw Saving Private Ryan. You were right. They never turned back, not a one. They kept coming." His voice trembled as he spoke.

Somehow, my own voice cracked a bit with gratitude. My son remembered. May God grant that every boy and girl in this free and loving land never forget the gift of young boys so long ago, a gift given to generations of Americans who were yet to be born.

Jack Valenti flew 51 combat missions in World War II as a pilot commander of a B-25 twin-engine attack bomber with the 12th Air Force in Europe. He also is former chairman of the Motion Picture Association of America.

Can we stop feeding the troll?



 

BarneyFife

Diamond Member
Aug 12, 2001
3,875
0
76
America of 50 years ago was Bush fanboys *infinity. They followed everything the government said as truth. Now that we have the internet and all these other options, we can see that the majority of these wars are for profit. Nobody who dies in Iraq is a hero or a person who is fighting for my rights. They are a mercenary for the Bush/Cheney war-profit machine.
 

jrenz

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
1,788
0
0
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: jrenz
It's not cool to respect America and those who died for it. It's cooler to hate America these days.

whats the basis for this. Patriotism is not blind servitude, especially where the leadership is lost.

You're not around young people enough to know that they don't need a reason, as long as everyone else is doing it.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: jrenz
It's not cool to respect America and those who died for it. It's cooler to hate America these days.

whats the basis for this. Patriotism is not blind servitude, especially where the leadership is lost.

You're not around young people enough to know that they don't need a reason, as long as everyone else is doing it.


Says you? I am young... I have always done things for a reason... A lot of people do dumb things for no reason, IRREGARDLESS of age.

 

jrenz

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
1,788
0
0
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: jrenz
It's not cool to respect America and those who died for it. It's cooler to hate America these days.

whats the basis for this. Patriotism is not blind servitude, especially where the leadership is lost.

You're not around young people enough to know that they don't need a reason, as long as everyone else is doing it.


Says you? I am young... I have always done things for a reason... A lot of people do dumb things for no reason, IRREGARDLESS of age.

Ok... do I need to include the assumed "most" or "large numbers of"?
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: jrenz
It's not cool to respect America and those who died for it. It's cooler to hate America these days.

whats the basis for this. Patriotism is not blind servitude, especially where the leadership is lost.

You're not around young people enough to know that they don't need a reason, as long as everyone else is doing it.


Says you? I am young... I have always done things for a reason... A lot of people do dumb things for no reason, IRREGARDLESS of age.

Ok... do I need to include the assumed "most" or "large numbers of"?


Well, that could make you feel like you are right.. but as I said, people of ALL ages do things without a reason... why limit it to young people? If anything, young people are more likely to go AGAINST trends, in order to be "unique." Do you think that the viewers of "reality" shows are mostly young?

The older you are, the harder it is for you to adapt your way of thinking.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Nice sig shadow, are you some how implying that because you came from New Jersey and New York that you are superior to the guys from the south?

Since you don?t know, but I to have a ?northern? education. Went to school in Maine. And yet I share many of the same values of the southerners you mention in your signature.

Just because you come from NJ or NY doesn?t mean your ideas a right or better, just different.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Nice sig shadow, are you some how implying that because you came from New Jersey and New York that you are superior to the guys from the south?

Since you don?t know, but I to have a ?northern? education. Went to school in Maine. And yet I share many of the same values of the southerners you mention in your signature.

Just because you come from NJ or NY doesn?t mean your ideas a right or better, just different.


Thank you for your appreciation of my sig. I think it is important, when debating with people, to know where they are coming from in terms of perspective. Believe it or not, location has a huge effect on what your perspective is. Do you deny this?

Btw, I do not believe that "education" from public schools really has much effect on people.. most people learn very little from school besides learning to hate what is forced upon them(often is- Shakespeare, "classics", etc.). Schooling(not counting medical schools and other specialty schools) really are used to weed out those unwilling to put in effort into their work. It is laughable how easy it is to graduate from high school/college.