Does the helicopter take off?

[jdini76]

Originally posted by: ScottSwingleComputers

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: ScottSwingleComputers

Originally posted by: Specop 007
I believe it would. The rotors would have no net speed in relation to the body of the helicopter, but they would have a net speed in relation to the ground and as such to the air around the helicopter. As long as you have air passing over the rotor blades you have lift, regardless of the body of the helicopter.

You got that a bit backwards.

No, I think he got it right. Air passing over the blades of the rotor provide lift, regardless of what's powering the rotation, be it the turntable or the engines.

But the blades would NOT be moving in relation to the air or ground. The turntable would negate the movement of the blades.

What direction is the turntable moving? With or against the blades?

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
Oh yeah, and the pilot will be flying through the windshield.

and puking and so dizzy he will pass out.

stupid question.

 

[swtethan]

Originally posted by: SoulAssassin

Originally posted by: swtethan

Originally posted by: ScottSwingleComputers

Originally posted by: swtethan
Yes, the tail blade has a gyro which compensates for the rotation of the main blade.

And how is a tail blade (remember they are mounted sideways) going to provide VERTICAL lift?

Thats not what will make it lift, it will just make the helicopter steady and pointed in one direction. The tailblade is what makes a helicopter go straight when flying, not spinning out of control. Any spinning movement detected from the gyro inside the helicopter, the computer will compensate for the spin using the tail blade.

If, and this wasn't clarified in the OP, say the turntable was spinning and you were able to use the tail rotor to compensate for the rotation of the turntable to keep the helo in one place effectively you could take off but, again, this was not necessarily allowed in the OP.

You cannot fly a helicopter or will it liftoff without a tail rotor, or a gyro for the tail rotor. the gyro will always automatically compensate for any kind of spin unless you forced it to spin using the controls, anything outside of the controls of the helicopter, it will compensate for.

 

[Phoenix86]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
Oh yeah, and the pilot will be flying through the windshield.

and puking and so dizzy he will pass out.

stupid question.

What if he was in a G suit? :evil:

 

[Injury]

Originally posted by: ScottSwingleComputers

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: ScottSwingleComputers

Originally posted by: Specop 007
I believe it would. The rotors would have no net speed in relation to the body of the helicopter, but they would have a net speed in relation to the ground and as such to the air around the helicopter. As long as you have air passing over the rotor blades you have lift, regardless of the body of the helicopter.

You got that a bit backwards.

No, I think he got it right. Air passing over the blades of the rotor provide lift, regardless of what's powering the rotation, be it the turntable or the engines.

But the blades would NOT be moving in relation to the air or ground. The turntable would negate the movement of the blades.

Negative. The turntable would not change the fact that the blades are turning at a certain speed. The turntable could not match this speed because the turntable is ADDING to it, not catching up to it.

It's just like if you are in a moving car and throw a ball up a few inches... the ball doesn't go flying backwards as if it had suddenly left the car. If you were to throw the ball towards the front of the car, it is moving at it's rate + the rate of the car. We know this, again, because the ball does not go flying backwards. The ball's movement is relative to the car.

Now an even better hypothetical question would be "If you were in a helocopter in a tornado that spun at the exact same speed as the helocopter's blades in the opposite direction, could you maintain lift?"

 

[ThePresence]

This thread needs Grasshopper.

 

[sswingle]

Originally posted by: jdini76

Originally posted by: ScottSwingleComputers

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: ScottSwingleComputers

Originally posted by: Specop 007
I believe it would. The rotors would have no net speed in relation to the body of the helicopter, but they would have a net speed in relation to the ground and as such to the air around the helicopter. As long as you have air passing over the rotor blades you have lift, regardless of the body of the helicopter.

You got that a bit backwards.

No, I think he got it right. Air passing over the blades of the rotor provide lift, regardless of what's powering the rotation, be it the turntable or the engines.

But the blades would NOT be moving in relation to the air or ground. The turntable would negate the movement of the blades.

What direction is the turntable moving? With or against the blades?

Against. Hence the "no net motion" as stated in the OP.

 

[sswingle]

Originally posted by: Injury

Originally posted by: ScottSwingleComputers

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: ScottSwingleComputers

Originally posted by: Specop 007
I believe it would. The rotors would have no net speed in relation to the body of the helicopter, but they would have a net speed in relation to the ground and as such to the air around the helicopter. As long as you have air passing over the rotor blades you have lift, regardless of the body of the helicopter.

You got that a bit backwards.

No, I think he got it right. Air passing over the blades of the rotor provide lift, regardless of what's powering the rotation, be it the turntable or the engines.

But the blades would NOT be moving in relation to the air or ground. The turntable would negate the movement of the blades.

Negative. The turntable would not change the fact that the blades are turning at a certain speed. The turntable could not match this speed because the turntable is ADDING to it, not catching up to it.

It's just like if you are in a moving car and throw a ball up a few inches... the ball doesn't go flying backwards as if it had suddenly left the car. If you were to throw the ball towards the front of the car, it is moving at it's rate + the rate of the car. We know this, again, because the ball does not go flying backwards. The ball's movement is relative to the car.

Now an even better hypothetical question would be "If you were in a helocopter in a tornado that spun at the exact same speed as the helocopter's blades in the opposite direction, could you maintain lift?"

Read the freaking OP. The turntable is going in the opposite direction. That does not add to, it negates the motion of the blades.

 

[swtethan]

Originally posted by: ScottSwingleComputers

Originally posted by: Injury

Originally posted by: ScottSwingleComputers

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: ScottSwingleComputers

Originally posted by: Specop 007
I believe it would. The rotors would have no net speed in relation to the body of the helicopter, but they would have a net speed in relation to the ground and as such to the air around the helicopter. As long as you have air passing over the rotor blades you have lift, regardless of the body of the helicopter.

You got that a bit backwards.

No, I think he got it right. Air passing over the blades of the rotor provide lift, regardless of what's powering the rotation, be it the turntable or the engines.

But the blades would NOT be moving in relation to the air or ground. The turntable would negate the movement of the blades.

Negative. The turntable would not change the fact that the blades are turning at a certain speed. The turntable could not match this speed because the turntable is ADDING to it, not catching up to it.

It's just like if you are in a moving car and throw a ball up a few inches... the ball doesn't go flying backwards as if it had suddenly left the car. If you were to throw the ball towards the front of the car, it is moving at it's rate + the rate of the car. We know this, again, because the ball does not go flying backwards. The ball's movement is relative to the car.

Now an even better hypothetical question would be "If you were in a helocopter in a tornado that spun at the exact same speed as the helocopter's blades in the opposite direction, could you maintain lift?"

Read the freaking OP. The turntable is going in the opposite direction. That does not add to, it negates the motion of the blades.

The tail will stop the spinning helicopter body.

 

[BrownTown]

OK, so since this isn't in HT ill just be blunt about it. The helicopter doesn't take off, if it takes you more than 10 seconds to understand that fact that you are mentally handicapped.

 

[jdini76]

Originally posted by: ScottSwingleComputers

Originally posted by: jdini76

Originally posted by: ScottSwingleComputers

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: ScottSwingleComputers

Originally posted by: Specop 007
I believe it would. The rotors would have no net speed in relation to the body of the helicopter, but they would have a net speed in relation to the ground and as such to the air around the helicopter. As long as you have air passing over the rotor blades you have lift, regardless of the body of the helicopter.

You got that a bit backwards.

No, I think he got it right. Air passing over the blades of the rotor provide lift, regardless of what's powering the rotation, be it the turntable or the engines.

But the blades would NOT be moving in relation to the air or ground. The turntable would negate the movement of the blades.

What direction is the turntable moving? With or against the blades?

Against. Hence the "no net motion" as stated in the OP.

Well didn't the OP answer the question in the question. Why are we even discussing it?

 

[mugs]

Is this helicopter African or European?

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: ScottSwingleComputers

Originally posted by: Specop 007
I believe it would. The rotors would have no net speed in relation to the body of the helicopter, but they would have a net speed in relation to the ground and as such to the air around the helicopter. As long as you have air passing over the rotor blades you have lift, regardless of the body of the helicopter.

You got that a bit backwards.

DOH! You're right, I did.

Oops. No, the helicopter would not take off.

 

[brikis98]

i am not an expert on helicopters by any means, so i'm humbly guessing. but, wouldn't the main rotor of a helicopter be "free spinning" wrt (with respect to) the helicopter's body? if so, let's imagine looking at the helicopter from ABOVE:

1. the main rotors is spinning clockwise and the turntable spins the body of the helicopter counterclockwise. wrt the body of the helicopter, the main rotor is now spinning twice as fast. however, wrt the ground, the rotor is still spinning at the normal rate and therefore generating lift. helicopter takes off.
2. the main rotor is spinning clockwise and the turntable spins the body of the helicopter clockwise (the OP's intent, i believe). wrt the body of the helicopter, the main rotor is not spinning at all. wrt to the ground... it's still spinning at it's normal rate, generating lift and the helicopter takes off.

for the above analysis, i'm ignoring the tail rotor (although at most, i believe it would only affect the body of the helicopter) and the effects of torque of a entire helicopter body spinning around (which would probably throw it off the platform).

now, if the main rotor is not free spinning wrt the helicopter body... then the only way the OP makes sense "no net motion" is if both the turntable and main rotor are at a standstill, which seems like a trivial case.

please comment/correct me, esp. on the mechanics of a chopper

 

[sswingle]

Originally posted by: brikis98
i am not an expert on helicopters by any means, so i'm humbly guessing. but, wouldn't the main rotor of a helicopter be "free spinning" wrt (with respect to) the helicopter's body? if so, let's imagine looking at the helicopter from ABOVE:

1. the main rotors is spinning clockwise and the turntable spins the body of the helicopter counterclockwise. wrt the body of the helicopter, the main rotor is now spinning twice as fast. however, wrt the ground, the rotor is still spinning at the normal rate and therefore generating lift. helicopter takes off.
2. the main rotor is spinning clockwise and the turntable spins the body of the helicopter clockwise (the OP's intent, i believe). wrt the body of the helicopter, the main rotor is not spinning at all. wrt to the ground... it's still spinning at it's normal rate, generating lift and the helicopter takes off.

for the above analysis, i'm ignoring the tail rotor (although at most, i believe it would only affect the body of the helicopter) and the effects of torque of a entire helicopter body spinning around (which would probably throw it off the platform).

now, if the main rotor is not free spinning wrt the helicopter body... then the only way the OP makes sense "no net motion" is if both the turntable and main rotor are at a standstill, which seems like a trivial case.

please comment/correct me, esp. on the mechanics of a chopper

Both dont make sense. Neither situation would change the blade speed in relation to the body. Think about it a bit more.

I wish I knew how to make a simple animation.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: ScottSwingleComputers

Originally posted by: brikis98
i am not an expert on helicopters by any means, so i'm humbly guessing. but, wouldn't the main rotor of a helicopter be "free spinning" wrt (with respect to) the helicopter's body? if so, let's imagine looking at the helicopter from ABOVE:

1. the main rotors is spinning clockwise and the turntable spins the body of the helicopter counterclockwise. wrt the body of the helicopter, the main rotor is now spinning twice as fast. however, wrt the ground, the rotor is still spinning at the normal rate and therefore generating lift. helicopter takes off.
2. the main rotor is spinning clockwise and the turntable spins the body of the helicopter clockwise (the OP's intent, i believe). wrt the body of the helicopter, the main rotor is not spinning at all. wrt to the ground... it's still spinning at it's normal rate, generating lift and the helicopter takes off.

for the above analysis, i'm ignoring the tail rotor (although at most, i believe it would only affect the body of the helicopter) and the effects of torque of a entire helicopter body spinning around (which would probably throw it off the platform).

now, if the main rotor is not free spinning wrt the helicopter body... then the only way the OP makes sense "no net motion" is if both the turntable and main rotor are at a standstill, which seems like a trivial case.

please comment/correct me, esp. on the mechanics of a chopper

Both dont make sense. Neither situation would change the blade speed in relation to the body. Think about it a bit more.

I wish I knew how to make a simple animation.

not sure what you're trying to say... it's the blade speed wrt the ground that matters, right? so if the rotor is free spinning, spinning the body of the helicopter has no impact on this... right?

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: ScottSwingleComputers

Originally posted by: brikis98
i am not an expert on helicopters by any means, so i'm humbly guessing. but, wouldn't the main rotor of a helicopter be "free spinning" wrt (with respect to) the helicopter's body? if so, let's imagine looking at the helicopter from ABOVE:

1. the main rotors is spinning clockwise and the turntable spins the body of the helicopter counterclockwise. wrt the body of the helicopter, the main rotor is now spinning twice as fast. however, wrt the ground, the rotor is still spinning at the normal rate and therefore generating lift. helicopter takes off.
2. the main rotor is spinning clockwise and the turntable spins the body of the helicopter clockwise (the OP's intent, i believe). wrt the body of the helicopter, the main rotor is not spinning at all. wrt to the ground... it's still spinning at it's normal rate, generating lift and the helicopter takes off.

for the above analysis, i'm ignoring the tail rotor (although at most, i believe it would only affect the body of the helicopter) and the effects of torque of a entire helicopter body spinning around (which would probably throw it off the platform).

now, if the main rotor is not free spinning wrt the helicopter body... then the only way the OP makes sense "no net motion" is if both the turntable and main rotor are at a standstill, which seems like a trivial case.

please comment/correct me, esp. on the mechanics of a chopper

Both dont make sense. Neither situation would change the blade speed in relation to the body. Think about it a bit more.

I wish I knew how to make a simple animation.

Just use a dyno as an example.
A car travelling on a road at 60 MPH has the tire spinning at X rotation.
A dyno acts as "movable ground", moving at the same rate as the tire.
Net effect is the car doesnt move.

Same principle here, exepct instead of keeping a car body from moving we're keeping helicopter blades from moving.

Not the best example obviously, but might work.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: ScottSwingleComputers

Originally posted by: brikis98
i am not an expert on helicopters by any means, so i'm humbly guessing. but, wouldn't the main rotor of a helicopter be "free spinning" wrt (with respect to) the helicopter's body? if so, let's imagine looking at the helicopter from ABOVE:

1. the main rotors is spinning clockwise and the turntable spins the body of the helicopter counterclockwise. wrt the body of the helicopter, the main rotor is now spinning twice as fast. however, wrt the ground, the rotor is still spinning at the normal rate and therefore generating lift. helicopter takes off.
2. the main rotor is spinning clockwise and the turntable spins the body of the helicopter clockwise (the OP's intent, i believe). wrt the body of the helicopter, the main rotor is not spinning at all. wrt to the ground... it's still spinning at it's normal rate, generating lift and the helicopter takes off.

for the above analysis, i'm ignoring the tail rotor (although at most, i believe it would only affect the body of the helicopter) and the effects of torque of a entire helicopter body spinning around (which would probably throw it off the platform).

now, if the main rotor is not free spinning wrt the helicopter body... then the only way the OP makes sense "no net motion" is if both the turntable and main rotor are at a standstill, which seems like a trivial case.

please comment/correct me, esp. on the mechanics of a chopper

Both dont make sense. Neither situation would change the blade speed in relation to the body. Think about it a bit more.

I wish I knew how to make a simple animation.

Just use a dyno as an example.
A car travelling on a road at 60 MPH has the tire spinning at X rotation.
A dyno acts as "movable ground", moving at the same rate as the tire.
Net effect is the car doesnt move.

Same principle here, exepct instead of keeping a car body from moving we're keeping helicopter blades from moving.

Not the best example obviously, but might work.

car tires aren't free spinning... afaik, a helicopter's rotors are... or else, how would it spin (around it's vertical axis) in place during normal flight?

 

[swtethan]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: ScottSwingleComputers

Originally posted by: brikis98
i am not an expert on helicopters by any means, so i'm humbly guessing. but, wouldn't the main rotor of a helicopter be "free spinning" wrt (with respect to) the helicopter's body? if so, let's imagine looking at the helicopter from ABOVE:

1. the main rotors is spinning clockwise and the turntable spins the body of the helicopter counterclockwise. wrt the body of the helicopter, the main rotor is now spinning twice as fast. however, wrt the ground, the rotor is still spinning at the normal rate and therefore generating lift. helicopter takes off.
2. the main rotor is spinning clockwise and the turntable spins the body of the helicopter clockwise (the OP's intent, i believe). wrt the body of the helicopter, the main rotor is not spinning at all. wrt to the ground... it's still spinning at it's normal rate, generating lift and the helicopter takes off.

for the above analysis, i'm ignoring the tail rotor (although at most, i believe it would only affect the body of the helicopter) and the effects of torque of a entire helicopter body spinning around (which would probably throw it off the platform).

now, if the main rotor is not free spinning wrt the helicopter body... then the only way the OP makes sense "no net motion" is if both the turntable and main rotor are at a standstill, which seems like a trivial case.

please comment/correct me, esp. on the mechanics of a chopper

Both dont make sense. Neither situation would change the blade speed in relation to the body. Think about it a bit more.

I wish I knew how to make a simple animation.

Just use a dyno as an example.
A car travelling on a road at 60 MPH has the tire spinning at X rotation.
A dyno acts as "movable ground", moving at the same rate as the tire.
Net effect is the car doesnt move.

Same principle here, exepct instead of keeping a car body from moving we're keeping helicopter blades from moving.

Not the best example obviously, but might work.

A helicopter is a whole helicopter, not just a main rotor. The computer will never let a helicopter spin out of control, it will always try to counteract any kind of spin that is not input by the pilot.

is this question so hard to answer?

 

[Leros]

We dont care about the relation of the blades with resepct to the ground. We care about the relation of the blades with respect to the air around the blades. Since the blades are not spinning relative to the air around them, there is no lift generated.


And to get technical:

The rotating body of the helicoptor would move some air around, so there would be a small amount of movement in the blades relative the surrounding air, but nowhere near enough to lift the helicoptor.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: Leros
We dont care about the relation of the blades with resepct to the ground. We care about the relation of the blades with respect to the air around the blades. Since the blades are not spinning relative to the air around them, there is no lift generated.

fair enough. except i believe that if the rotors are spinning wrt the ground, they are likewise spinning wrt the air.

 

[Leros]

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: Leros
We dont care about the relation of the blades with resepct to the ground. We care about the relation of the blades with respect to the air around the blades. Since the blades are not spinning relative to the air around them, there is no lift generated.

fair enough. except i believe that if the rotors are spinning wrt the ground, they are likewise spinning wrt the air.

The problem that some people are having is that they are seeing the rotating platter as the ground.

And if we call the the "ground" the stationary ground around the rotating platter, then the blades are still not moving wrt to the ground.

 

[GasX]

As long as the rotors are spinning in relation to the cockpit, lift will be generated, so yes, it will fly.

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: swtethan

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: ScottSwingleComputers

Originally posted by: brikis98
i am not an expert on helicopters by any means, so i'm humbly guessing. but, wouldn't the main rotor of a helicopter be "free spinning" wrt (with respect to) the helicopter's body? if so, let's imagine looking at the helicopter from ABOVE:

1. the main rotors is spinning clockwise and the turntable spins the body of the helicopter counterclockwise. wrt the body of the helicopter, the main rotor is now spinning twice as fast. however, wrt the ground, the rotor is still spinning at the normal rate and therefore generating lift. helicopter takes off.
2. the main rotor is spinning clockwise and the turntable spins the body of the helicopter clockwise (the OP's intent, i believe). wrt the body of the helicopter, the main rotor is not spinning at all. wrt to the ground... it's still spinning at it's normal rate, generating lift and the helicopter takes off.

for the above analysis, i'm ignoring the tail rotor (although at most, i believe it would only affect the body of the helicopter) and the effects of torque of a entire helicopter body spinning around (which would probably throw it off the platform).

now, if the main rotor is not free spinning wrt the helicopter body... then the only way the OP makes sense "no net motion" is if both the turntable and main rotor are at a standstill, which seems like a trivial case.

please comment/correct me, esp. on the mechanics of a chopper

Both dont make sense. Neither situation would change the blade speed in relation to the body. Think about it a bit more.

I wish I knew how to make a simple animation.

Just use a dyno as an example.
A car travelling on a road at 60 MPH has the tire spinning at X rotation.
A dyno acts as "movable ground", moving at the same rate as the tire.
Net effect is the car doesnt move.

Same principle here, exepct instead of keeping a car body from moving we're keeping helicopter blades from moving.

Not the best example obviously, but might work.

A helicopter is a whole helicopter, not just a main rotor. The computer will never let a helicopter spin out of control, it will always try to counteract any kind of spin that is not input by the pilot.

is this question so hard to answer?

I call BS. Your going to have to provifr links that helicopters have computers doing the flying.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: Leros

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: Leros
We dont care about the relation of the blades with resepct to the ground. We care about the relation of the blades with respect to the air around the blades. Since the blades are not spinning relative to the air around them, there is no lift generated.

fair enough. except i believe that if the rotors are spinning wrt the ground, they are likewise spinning wrt the air.

The problem that some people are having is that they are seeing the rotating platter as the ground.

And if we call the the "ground" the stationary ground around the rotating platter, then the blades are still not moving wrt to the ground.

i agree, the ground != the rotating platter. but i still argue that if the helicopter blades are free spinning, then they spin at their normal speed wrt the ground.