I just thought of one "high tech." gizmo that may or may not be so cool. Anti-lock Brakes. When they first came out, cops were running into all kinds of problems when their patrolmen tried to pump them. I guess that's been ironed out by now, but I'd still rather not have them. I'd rather not have air bags or traction control either. Hell, eliminating those three things would knock the price of a vehicle down by well over a grand. I think two airbags are $1,600.00 alone!
definatly detract. Well, some does. I mean, like when I'm driving a car I want to see all the little gauges doing their things instead of a computer in the enginge 'handling it' all for me. I want to be able to adjust everything to my own little liking. Of course, you can't really do that, but you can get a car with lots of stuff . . . instead of the gas/speed/rpm setups that are coming into vouge these days. Maybe I should just go buy a fountain speedboat . . . they have enough technical gauges and stuff to keep me occupied for years.
oh well, what I really want is to keep drving my 1991 Sable forever. It doesn't have tons of little tech info gauges, but it has enough.
oh well, what I really want is to keep drving my 1991 Sable forever. It doesn't have tons of little tech info gauges, but it has enough.
Well, as technology progresses with consumer level cars (not talking race cars because tech in race cars = good) it's bad.
All those gadgets like multichannel ABS, traction control, electronic stability control, auto shifters, steer & throttle-by-wire are great for the average consumer to keep them safe and sound. But for a motorsports enthusiast... it sucks HARD.
ABS? For motorsports? You got to be kidding...
ESP? Well, not if you WANT to get the car sideways on purpose...
Traction control? It slows you down to keep you safe... doesn't help when you're trying to go fast.
Autostick shifters? Nice but if you want the real manual, either get an SMG or something with a real clutch.
Steering-by-wire is Ok, though some people complain that the way it's done by some manufacturers is bad for steering feel as speeds change rapidly up and down, but few get it right.
Throttle/brake-by-wire also mixed bag because a lot of systems do funky things like not allowing full left foot braking or mapping throttle to torque curve. That kinda stuff makes throttle control and brake modulation more difficult than it already is in a lot of cases. Also, if it's just a mirror of mechanicals, then it would be just less weight and complexity to do it the "old" way.
Though I do have to say... some technology is WAY cool... like Valvetronic, electronic differentials, and SMGs. SO overall, more fun for the average joe driver because he/she prolly kill themselves otherwise trying the stuff. But for a true hardcore enthusiast that's into motorsports... worthless.
All those gadgets like multichannel ABS, traction control, electronic stability control, auto shifters, steer & throttle-by-wire are great for the average consumer to keep them safe and sound. But for a motorsports enthusiast... it sucks HARD.
ABS? For motorsports? You got to be kidding...
ESP? Well, not if you WANT to get the car sideways on purpose...
Traction control? It slows you down to keep you safe... doesn't help when you're trying to go fast.
Autostick shifters? Nice but if you want the real manual, either get an SMG or something with a real clutch.
Steering-by-wire is Ok, though some people complain that the way it's done by some manufacturers is bad for steering feel as speeds change rapidly up and down, but few get it right.
Throttle/brake-by-wire also mixed bag because a lot of systems do funky things like not allowing full left foot braking or mapping throttle to torque curve. That kinda stuff makes throttle control and brake modulation more difficult than it already is in a lot of cases. Also, if it's just a mirror of mechanicals, then it would be just less weight and complexity to do it the "old" way.
Though I do have to say... some technology is WAY cool... like Valvetronic, electronic differentials, and SMGs. SO overall, more fun for the average joe driver because he/she prolly kill themselves otherwise trying the stuff. But for a true hardcore enthusiast that's into motorsports... worthless.
What's steering by wire and who uses that?
What I don't understand is hte whole point of -by wire systems. I somewat understand throttle-by-wire since that can improve efficiency of the engine, but why do you need brake-by-wire or steering-by-wire? You have to be able to FEEL the brakes and the steering!! I don't think electronics can convey those feelings, which ultimately can guide the driver.
By wire systems are supposedly the future because they can go beyond just normal mechanical feel... my car mechanically feels kinda "dead", but drive-by-wire, you can change that. Electric motors also don't sap engine power like belt run accessories (power steering) and thus might be more reliable.
So those are some of the reasons... I'm not a big fan so I'm not terribly interested in the benefits. But anywho, BMW (Cooper) and MB are both starting to get into full drive-by-wire in their cars. Steering-by-wire exists in some BMWs & MBs already I think. The idea was being experimented with by Saab, Volvo, VW, and many other manufacturers and will be added in the near future if it hasn't already arrived.
MB uses brake-by-wire in it's Eclass, I grilled an MB rep and basically their take is also improved safety. Some people mean to brake hard when they stomp on the brakes but don't depress the pedal fully... the brake-by-wire system takes that and runs with it to give you the "safe" response. As I said before... sucks for motorsport. It's been called electronic brake force distribution iirc.
I think electronic brake distribution is different from braking-by-wire. EBD is offered on a lot of cars (Maximas, Camrys, Accords, etc..) and it just manages the braking power on each wheel depending on the car's dynamic at that instant.
Originally posted by: mAdD INDIAN
Originally posted by: Ornery
Hah! Little by little, it's starting to sink in that you don't get the chance to enjoy what a "fun to drive", econobox, go-kart does best. Handling? Oh brother! What percentage of "driving enthusiasts" get to "tame the twisties" on a regular basis?
Even motorcyclists risk life and limb every minute they're "adventuring". Ever alert of nit-wits in cages or risk becoming another statistic. Sounds really enjoyable!
Face it, technology has brought us safer, longer lasting vehicles, that are faster and more stable. All for a few more bucks and added complexity. Hell, I bet half the added complexity is EPA related anyway. If you want "fun", take up Kart racing. For cruising the boulevard from point to point, I'll take a well equipped, high tech, boulevard cruiser any day.
You should really try to drive a) A Miata b) a CRX one day through your favorite road. There's something to be said about driving a "simple" car thru its paces and having fun.
Don't knock it till you try it.
Yeah, I'll second that. My parents have an old CRX that was intended for my little brother but they don't trust him with a manual for various reasons. That car is slower in every respect than my Accord but it's still 10x more fun to drive.
Yeah, I don't know if they call it that, but MB does have that "feature." It's basically for old ladies who don't have the strength to hold the pedal down. It detects when you're "stomping" the pedal and then automatically applies maximum braking force until you let off the brake. They found that old ladies were hitting the brake hard but then letting off when they meant to keep it down. All of which is a long way of saying, if you are (gasp!) actually capable of piloting a vehicle properly, it's the pits.
There's no way I'm going to give up climate control, the ability to adjust the temperature and fan speed , the radio station and volume from the steeriing wheel. I'm not going five blocks without cruise control, being able to bump the speed up or down also from the wheel. I don't ever again want to have to turn on a head light or turn it off. I love it when you hear machine gun fire if you touch my car. I could never drive again if I had to adjust the mirrors by hand or flip them to dim bright lights. Mine get dark automatically when the light shines on them and they heat to melt the ice. I would never want to have to wipe a rear window to see out of it. I love knowing my instant milage, my average milage, how much gas I've burned, now much I got and how far I can drive on it. I like knowing my average mph, the engine temperature, how much life is left in my oil, when to service what part of the engine, and the rpm. I love the compass directions that glow in my mirror. No more wrong way on the freeway in a whiteout. Who wants to open a trunk or door or gas door with a key or by hand. Horrible. Who wants traction control you can't turn off with a button, a begillion presets on the radio. Who wants to roll a window up or down, or not have memory seats that slide a hundred ways.
I would say it has improved the fun, well for me atleast but not the way you guys are thinking. with all the technology in cars people seem to think that the cars drive themselfs and it is very dangerous for me to be on the road where drivers are no fully aware, in that case technology is bad. Now I plan all my trips through backs roads which adds to my fun cause they are usually hilly and twisty, just the way my bike likes it and there is no one on them. I avoid all major highways and stuff like that. newer cars handle way better than old ones and can go faster which makes the fun but a fun car isnt much without fun roads to drive the on.
After driving my boss' go-cart around tonight through the sand.....more technology is no fun.
15hp go-cart engine upgrade is fun (from the stock 5hp)
15hp go-cart engine upgrade is fun (from the stock 5hp)
Good:
Fuel Injection - A good system can get more power in more dynamic systems
Variable Valve Timing - Low end torque + high end power (flat torque curve)
ABS - A well designed system should actually improve your braking, and there are race cars out there that have ABS.
Climate Control Systems - A thermostat is a simple and very useful device. I've seen very few systems I don't like.
Headlight Bulb/Lens Advancements - More light that doesn't blind other drivers is always appreciated.
Neutral:
Power Steering (must be done right to maintain full feel of road, and can make easier to turn wide front tires)
Plastic. It's lighter for some things, more durable for others, but is a pain to work with (cracks), expensive to repair, and no matter the quality level, just feels cheep.
Automatic Transmissions. For a daily-driver city car, can make life easier, but it has no place in a sports car. There's nothing worse than going around a corner and having the transmission shift on you.
Power door locks/power windows/security systems: Good if very unobtrusive and perform simply and reliably.
Bad:
Traction Control (always manages to mess me up when I'm trying to regain control myself)
Airbags (Expensive, a pain to work with, saftey benefits questionable (a better seatbelt is a better improvement))
Auto-sensing headlights/wipers/mirrors - I can control these fine myself and want to have control over those systems
Integrated stereos. Stereo technology changes quickly and it's nice to be able to change out the stereo without having to rewire the steering wheel and security system. They should even make stereos have a standardized connector to make swapping easier.
Ugly:
Proprietary computer codes that require to you to go to the dealer to get that "Check Engine" light to go out because you started the car once with the gas cap too loose.
Either way it's nice to have technology, just so long as it doesn't cause you to feel disconnected, or worse yet get in the way. The best way I can sum it up is that I get in my mom's 2003 Mazda 6, but I strap on my 1987 Porsche 944. One drives me, the other I take for a ride.
Fuel Injection - A good system can get more power in more dynamic systems
Variable Valve Timing - Low end torque + high end power (flat torque curve)
ABS - A well designed system should actually improve your braking, and there are race cars out there that have ABS.
Climate Control Systems - A thermostat is a simple and very useful device. I've seen very few systems I don't like.
Headlight Bulb/Lens Advancements - More light that doesn't blind other drivers is always appreciated.
Neutral:
Power Steering (must be done right to maintain full feel of road, and can make easier to turn wide front tires)
Plastic. It's lighter for some things, more durable for others, but is a pain to work with (cracks), expensive to repair, and no matter the quality level, just feels cheep.
Automatic Transmissions. For a daily-driver city car, can make life easier, but it has no place in a sports car. There's nothing worse than going around a corner and having the transmission shift on you.
Power door locks/power windows/security systems: Good if very unobtrusive and perform simply and reliably.
Bad:
Traction Control (always manages to mess me up when I'm trying to regain control myself)
Airbags (Expensive, a pain to work with, saftey benefits questionable (a better seatbelt is a better improvement))
Auto-sensing headlights/wipers/mirrors - I can control these fine myself and want to have control over those systems
Integrated stereos. Stereo technology changes quickly and it's nice to be able to change out the stereo without having to rewire the steering wheel and security system. They should even make stereos have a standardized connector to make swapping easier.
Ugly:
Proprietary computer codes that require to you to go to the dealer to get that "Check Engine" light to go out because you started the car once with the gas cap too loose.
Either way it's nice to have technology, just so long as it doesn't cause you to feel disconnected, or worse yet get in the way. The best way I can sum it up is that I get in my mom's 2003 Mazda 6, but I strap on my 1987 Porsche 944. One drives me, the other I take for a ride.
Definatley! I agree with you on that (especially the car comptuer, I love playing with those gadgets!)
But I think this thread was about driving technologies that afffect the actual operation of driving the car (such as electronic dynamic control, *-by-wire) rather than the comfort of the driver & passengers (such as climate control, electronic seats, etc..).
I am all for having these driving-affecting technologies on passenger cars, but for sporty cars, its all about simplicity!
Nearly a rhetoric question.
Technology will improve performance and limits of abilities.
Which means more speed, control, etc, which is more fun.
Technology will improve performance and limits of abilities.
Which means more speed, control, etc, which is more fun.
mAdD, you'd love my Austin Healy Sprite. Unfortunatley somebody stole it. I used to park in tight spaces by putting the front in and lifting the back in after I got out of the car. I was Sailing down the Bayshore one day with my Dad in the car and noticed the my slow lane was stopped ahead. I hit the breaks, made a quick calculation that I'd pull off if I couldn't stop, heard the squeel of brakes behind me, popped the wheel to the right as the guy behind me slammed near full speed into the car that had an instant earlier been in front of me. I even left enough room for him to do the same. Me and my Dad would have been sardines complete with our own oil. It was a fabulously simple car, but first and second gear were too close together in ratio.
It seems to me that technology has place for aggressive drivers as well.
You'd think that the people on this forum (the kind of people who don't raise an eyebrow at the word "carPC") would understand that.
And the reason cars are becoming "less fun" is because most people don't see driving as fun. It's a way to get from place to place. If you've ever spent 3hrs clutching in SF commuter traffic, then you'll know what I'm talking about
You'd think that the people on this forum (the kind of people who don't raise an eyebrow at the word "carPC") would understand that.
And the reason cars are becoming "less fun" is because most people don't see driving as fun. It's a way to get from place to place. If you've ever spent 3hrs clutching in SF commuter traffic, then you'll know what I'm talking about
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