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Does steaming a lobster to death cause it pain?

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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: mmallern2000
The screaming they produce while being boiled to death indicates pain IMHO.
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😕 How exactly would they go about screaming without, say, lungs? 😕
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Hissing from escaping vapor from rapidly increasing temperature?

I remember sitting around a campfire built with unseasoned wood and a few logs were oozing sap out the end started whistling and making noises you'd swear had to be coming from a mammal! :shocked:
 
Originally posted by: Alone
Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
People != lobsters. The analogy is nontransferable. The Nazi's ran a hate campaign against other human beings and murdered in the name of racial cleansing. Do I hate lobsters? Nope. Are they sentient? Nope. Do they provide nutrition? Yes. Do they feel pain? A majority of research seems to say nope.

Why even try to compare when the things aren't even on the same playing field? That's like trying to compare anything even slightly negative with the holocaust or any genocide. It simply does not match in magnitude.
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Yet another person who missed my point. I'm not saying they're equal. I made a drastic comparison as to whether or not anyone cared, not whether they should care, that's a persons personal motif.

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Also, I'd like to see a research article saying that lobsters maintain the nervous system function to feel pain if you have one handy.
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I'm no biologist, I can't say with first hand knowledge whether or not they do feel pain, but these people seem to think so. Then again, there are numerous results saying they don't. The conclusion is simple: we don't really know.
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Don't make the drastic comparison. It's called false analogy and even in the manner you're trying to use it, it fails. I don't understand how you're trying to put people down for disregarding your argument that fails the rules of composing an argument.

Also that experiment fails to show much. It doesn't test to see if the lobster releases any explicit pain-related chemical response. For all we know, the prawns could be rubbing the antenna due to temperature difference. When I touch something much warmer or much colder than my skin, I rub it to equalize the temperature. Who's to say that the prawns are doing anything different?

It also seems that Prof. Elwood may need to rethink some things. He/She wants us to believe that just because they have a different response doesn't mean that it's not pain. It applies the exact same for the opposite argument. Plants have a chemical response, yet everyone claims it's not pain. Why should you claim that it IS pain for prawns?
 
Originally posted by: Rubycon
Hissing from escaping vapor from rapidly increasing temperature?

I remember sitting around a campfire built with unseasoned wood and a few logs were oozing sap out the end started whistling and making noises you'd swear had to be coming from a mammal! :shocked:
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Not the same as a scream - that's my point. A lobster has no lungs and, therefore, cannot store gases in its lungs and, therefore, can't force those gases past vocal folds in order to scream. I like animals more than the average person, but I also know that the lower animals do not perceive reality in the same way that humans do. At the extreme lower end (invertebrates), it's not even close. It gets a little hazy as one approaches the upper echelons of the evolutionary ladder, but the lobster is pretty far from that.
 
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Obviously they feel pain, otherwise they wouldn't be able to move away from things that are hurting them.
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They can sense temperature differences. That is not the same thing as sensing pain. Not even in the same ballpark.
They're able to move around to find food, find mates, reproduce, fight other animals, etc. People need to wake up and realize that other animals do in fact have consciousness. Now that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be eaten, I'm no militant vegan.
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You need to wake up and read a neurophysiology textbook. You've so far conflated temperature, chemical, and optical sensation with consciousness and the ability to detect pain. Please, stop the fail. I can actually make a piece of metal tell me what the temperature is - does it have consciousness? I can make a plastic film detect the same chemicals that a lobster uses to find food - does it have consciousness? I can trick a lobster into mating with any object that has the same approximate dimensions as a potential mate, as well as write a computer program that will accurately model its movements based on its visual inputs. Does it have consciousness?
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I cannot believe just how incredibly stupid many of the people on this forum are. Most are clueless noobs still in school yet they try to act like they know what they're talking about.

A lobster isn't much more than a big undersea bug but at least take it for what it is. It's a living creature that senses its surroundings. It's able to feel differences in temperature, pressure, light, etc. Most animals have the ability to sense stimuli that are hazardous to their life and remove themselves from those conditions. Nobody is saying that they're putting much thought into it but they're doing what they've evolved to do. If you drop them on a hot plate they're going to run off until they're somewhere that's hospitable.
 
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
I like animals more than the average person, but I also know that the lower animals do not perceive reality in the same way that humans do.
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Nobody claimed that they do.
 
Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Also that experiment fails to show much. It doesn't test to see if the lobster releases any explicit pain-related chemical response. For all we know, the prawns could be rubbing the antenna due to temperature difference. When I touch something much warmer or much colder than my skin, I rub it to equalize the temperature. Who's to say that the prawns are doing anything different?
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So me comparing jews (people) to lobsters (not people) is ridiculous, but you...just did the same thing?

Also, and again, I'll say I'm not well versed in this subject...but if you can "feel" in the physical sense, doesn't that mean you can feel pain as well? So if they can sense a temperature change, can't they sense a temperature change while, say, in a boiling pot?
 
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
I cannot believe just how incredibly stupid many of the people on this forum are. Most are clueless noobs still in school yet they try to act like they know what they're talking about.

A lobster isn't much more than a big undersea bug but at least take it for what it is. It's a living creature that senses its surroundings. It's able to feel differences in temperature, pressure, light, etc. Most animals have the ability to sense stimuli that are hazardous to their life and remove themselves from those conditions. Nobody is saying that they're putting much thought into it but they're doing what they've evolved to do.
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I am stupid? Why am I stupid? YOU are the one that stated, and I quote, "Obviously they feel pain, otherwise they wouldn't be able to move away from things that are hurting them," and, "They're able to move around to find food, find mates, reproduce, fight other animals, etc. People need to wake up and realize that other animals do in fact have consciousness." I am well aware that they can sense their environment - I clearly stated as much in the post that you quoted. You are the "clueless noob" who equates sensation with pain and consciousness, which is pure fail since I also gave examples of cases where inanimate objects can sense things.
 
Originally posted by: Alone
Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Also that experiment fails to show much. It doesn't test to see if the lobster releases any explicit pain-related chemical response. For all we know, the prawns could be rubbing the antenna due to temperature difference. When I touch something much warmer or much colder than my skin, I rub it to equalize the temperature. Who's to say that the prawns are doing anything different?
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So me comparing jews (people) to lobsters (not people) is ridiculous, but you...just did the same thing?
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Your comparison was utterly stupid. Unfortunately it's the same comparison that idiots all over the place use to describe thing that they feel strongly about. It's a bad comparison, it's a dumb comparison, and it's a worn out comparison. Give it up.
 
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Your comparison was utterly stupid. Unfortunately it's the same comparison that idiots all over the place use to describe thing that they feel strongly about. It's a bad comparison, it's a dumb comparison, and it's a worn out comparison. Give it up.
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I don't feel strongly about it. I'm playing the devils advocate because no one else will. I must have hit some nerves, oops?
 
Originally posted by: CycloWizard

I am stupid? Why am I stupid? YOU are the one that stated, and I quote, "Obviously they feel pain, otherwise they wouldn't be able to move away from things that are hurting them," and, "They're able to move around to find food, find mates, reproduce, fight other animals, etc. People need to wake up and realize that other animals do in fact have consciousness." I am well aware that they can sense their environment - I clearly stated as much in the post that you quoted. You are the "clueless noob" who equates sensation with pain and consciousness, which is pure fail since I also gave examples of cases where inanimate objects can sense things.
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To be completely honest with you, you come off as a smug bitch.

Your arguments seem to be as bad as those that religious people use (that no animal can be similar to a human), which really are nothing more than thinly veiled attempts to justify their religion.

I really don't have enough respect for you to carry on a conversation, so your next reply will fall on deaf ears.

 
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
To be completely honest with you, you come off as a smug bitch.
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In other words, you can't rebut anything I said, so you will henceforth resort to cheap insults.
Your arguments seem to be as bad as those that religious people use (that no animal can be similar to a human), which really are nothing more than thinly veiled attempts to justify their religion.

I really don't have enough respect for you to carry on a conversation, so your next reply will fall on deaf ears.
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And I rest my case. Don't let the facts get in the way of your opinion. :laugh:
 
Define pain.

Stimulus/response does not mean that they have the brain capacity for suffering.
 
Have you guys ever steamed, boiled or chopped up a lobster? They obviously do not feel pain and nor do fish. I've ripped off their tales alive and they really don't seem to care.
 
Originally posted by: Alone
Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Also that experiment fails to show much. It doesn't test to see if the lobster releases any explicit pain-related chemical response. For all we know, the prawns could be rubbing the antenna due to temperature difference. When I touch something much warmer or much colder than my skin, I rub it to equalize the temperature. Who's to say that the prawns are doing anything different?
Click to expand...

So me comparing jews (people) to lobsters (not people) is ridiculous, but you...just did the same thing?

Also, and again, I'll say I'm not well versed in this subject...but if you can "feel" in the physical sense, doesn't that mean you can feel pain as well? So if they can sense a temperature change, can't they sense a temperature change while, say, in a boiling pot?
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You were comparing a societal hate and empathy of humans to that of caring for lobsters. I compared a physical phenomenon seen in many mammals and perhaps other species.

And no, feeling != pain. Nociception is a type of feeling. There are nociceptors, chemireceptors, thermoreceptors, etc, etc. Some animals can be aware of something that may damage them, but not feel pain. Pain is a evolutionary trait developed to get a rapid response. There were things before that that did the same basic thing, but in a less urgent manner.

I could imagine they feel temperature change, however you are applying the trait that very hot is pain. Hot can be separated from pain in those who do not have the nervous system ability to feel pain, but do have the ability to feel temperature change.
 
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: CycloWizard

I am stupid? Why am I stupid? YOU are the one that stated, and I quote, "Obviously they feel pain, otherwise they wouldn't be able to move away from things that are hurting them," and, "They're able to move around to find food, find mates, reproduce, fight other animals, etc. People need to wake up and realize that other animals do in fact have consciousness." I am well aware that they can sense their environment - I clearly stated as much in the post that you quoted. You are the "clueless noob" who equates sensation with pain and consciousness, which is pure fail since I also gave examples of cases where inanimate objects can sense things.
Click to expand...

To be completely honest with you, you come off as a smug bitch.

Your arguments seem to be as bad as those that religious people use (that no animal can be similar to a human), which really are nothing more than thinly veiled attempts to justify their religion.

I really don't have enough respect for you to carry on a conversation, so your next reply will fall on deaf ears.
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Funny. You just come off as a BITCH.

 
Originally posted by: Alone
Originally posted by: JulesFunny. You just come off as a BITCH.
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Jeez. People in here are extremely crabby. (Yes, I know crab != lobster, let me have my funny).
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Well, to be fair - real men fish for crab. Pussified crybabies fish for lobster.
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
Have you guys ever steamed, boiled or chopped up a lobster? They obviously do not feel pain and nor do fish. I've ripped off their tales alive and they really don't seem to care.
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I will believe you after you've completed a mind meld with the sea creature while butchering it.

Honestly, I don't know if they feel pain, but I run with the assumption that they do. I will kill my lobsters/fish before cooking them for 10 minutes... Or be a pussy and buy them pre-killed.
 
Originally posted by: Jules
Originally posted by: Alone
Originally posted by: JulesFunny. You just come off as a BITCH.
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Jeez. People in here are extremely crabby. (Yes, I know crab != lobster, let me have my funny).
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Heh i wasn't even talking about you.
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I know. I just saw an opportunity for a bad pun and jumped. 😛
 
Originally posted by: Imp
Originally posted by: spidey07
Have you guys ever steamed, boiled or chopped up a lobster? They obviously do not feel pain and nor do fish. I've ripped off their tales alive and they really don't seem to care.
Click to expand...

I will believe you after you've completed a mind meld with the sea creature while butchering it.

Honestly, I don't know if they feel pain, but I run with the assumption that they do. I will kill my lobsters/fish before cooking them for 10 minutes... Or be a pussy and buy them pre-killed.
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I looked deep into their eyes when dispatching them. They told me it was thinking "something smells good! When do we eat?" not "ouch".
 
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