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Does outsourcing cost us jobs?

sonz70

Banned
Would you consider outsourcing to costs us jobs?

Or, do you consider it a way to force people to gain more skills, and become more educated to find another job? It seems the jobs being sent overseas, and to other countries, are low-skilled, low-education jobs. So does outsourcing actually benefit us as a whole, by forcing us to make sure we are educated enough to survive in todays marketplace?
 
Many jobs going overseas are high skill engineering and programming jobs. What makes all the pro-outsourcing types think that Americans as a whole will always be superior to China or India? The idea smacks of racism at worst or blind ignorance at best. The Asian countries are catching up to us on all fronts and, with our insane religious government, will surpass us in stem cell research. This century will see us marginalized because of our own arrogance.

Plus, not all Americans are capable of higher education or have problems with certain occupations. Americans are a diverse lot. We need a diverse group of jobs for all people to acheive their potential. Its never a good thing when entire industries go overseas.

Also, I should mention that when I compete with a worker in India or China, skills aren't the bulk of the competition. Its price. They can hire two dozen Indians or three dozen Chinese for the price of me. There's no way I can be as effective compared to that, no matter how educated I am.
 
According to Stephen Colbert tonight, it actually saves us from providing funds to Homeland Security to combat illegal immigration.

So, right there, two birds with one stone. All problems solved.😉
 
I had rather we keep even those skills in our own society. Example: Sanding furniture is boring, hard, thankless work. You can't have a really nice piece of furniture without it, even if the master builder is a genius in the trade. Those simple but tedious jobs make society whole.
 
Originally posted by: sonz70
Topic Title: Does outsourcing cost us jobs?
Topic Summary: Or does it cause us to become more educated?

Educated for what when you've outsourced all the jobs??? 😕
 
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: sonz70
Topic Title: Does outsourcing cost us jobs?
Topic Summary: Or does it cause us to become more educated?

Educated for what when you've outsourced all the jobs??? 😕

I remember in the late 1970's when this started. They outsourced a lot of the steel making. A lot ot steel workers lost their jobs. They trained them in real estate or something. In the mid 1990's, they were outsourceing a lot of stuff and then they were training the recently unemployed in IT. Now they have outsourced a lot of that. It worked for the rich though. They overtrained for the market to the degree that they pay scales stabilized instead of going up. Now they are dropping in some areas. Predicted that!

 
Originally posted by: sonz70
Would you consider outsourcing to costs us jobs?

Or, do you consider it a way to force people to gain more skills, and become more educated to find another job? It seems the jobs being sent overseas, and to other countries, are low-skilled, low-education jobs. So does outsourcing actually benefit us as a whole, by forcing us to make sure we are educated enough to survive in todays marketplace?

Umm most of the IT jobs are going over seas, why? You have a 6 or 8 year degree enginers working for about 200 beans a months. Where as tech support guy in the US with a 2 year degree gets paid about 2,000 a month.(more depending on the area).

How would me getting my B.S or Masters help this equasion? It would cost them(the employer) more money to employ the with his Masters in I/T

BTW this will not stop me from getiing my B.S or Masters . I'm just pointing out that having the Masters would not stop the companies from out the job to India.

BTW India is becoming to expensive and they are now looking at Veitnam, and Eastern Europe
 
I agree with your second statement, that outsourcing is good for the country, AS A WHOLE. It might be painful individually for people losing their jobs, but better jobs are being created and primarily low skilled manufactoring jobs are being lost. We've been outsourcing jobs for decades now, and we are doing better now than we were 30 years ago...
 
Originally posted by: ntdz
I agree with your second statement, that outsourcing is good for the country, AS A WHOLE. It might be painful individually for people losing their jobs, but better jobs are being created and primarily low skilled manufactoring jobs are being lost. We've been outsourcing jobs for decades now, and we are doing better now than we were 30 years ago...

Show better jobs being created and factoring out the uber rich that skew the numbers show proof we are doing better than 30 yrs ago.
 
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: ntdz
I agree with your second statement, that outsourcing is good for the country, AS A WHOLE. It might be painful individually for people losing their jobs, but better jobs are being created and primarily low skilled manufactoring jobs are being lost. We've been outsourcing jobs for decades now, and we are doing better now than we were 30 years ago...

Show better jobs being created and factoring out the uber rich that skew the numbers show proof we are doing better than 30 yrs ago.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/histinc/p10ar.html

1974 Median Income = $17,409 (Adjusted for inflation of course)
2003 Median Income = $22,672

Good for a 30% increase in Median Income in the last 30 years.

Owned?
 
Free trade economists will always argue that outsourcing is the best since it allows for countries to specialize in the areas they have advantages in. However, I find it interesting that some countries have selectively chosen what areas they wish to specialize in, despite not necessarily having any advantages to begin with. Japan comes to mind. The outcome of the current phase of outsourcing is still to be determined.

Say what you wish about low skilled jobs, many people in the U.S. relied on them in the past and will continue to rely on them. Sure, you can argue that higher education will make the U.S. more competitive to fend off outsourcing, but the fact remains that those countries to which we are outsourcing are improving their educational systems as well. Eventually, higher skilled jobs will be outsourced as well. Some people even argue that this is currently happening in the tech sector, with tech related jobs going to India. This poses a problem for the US. What sector will replace tech? The service sector? I don't think the service sector can provide the types of salaries once had by those who worked in the tech sector.
 
Originally posted by: ntdz
I agree with your second statement, that outsourcing is good for the country, AS A WHOLE. It might be painful individually for people losing their jobs, but better jobs are being created and primarily low skilled manufactoring jobs are being lost. We've been outsourcing jobs for decades now, and we are doing better now than we were 30 years ago...


Computer porgramming or I/T design is not low skilled and these along with out white collar jobs are being outsourced. With the remove of blue collar jobs people started to enter white collar fields. What will happen when all the white collar jobs are moved over seas because it's cheaper to get labor with the same if not better skill level?

As a I/T Professional with a 2 year degree at 24k a year I'm over priced comparted to a Indian systems enginer with a Masters. If my company wasn't so dedicated to customer service like they are they would outsoruce and same loads of money.
 
Originally posted by: ysperalda


Some people even argue that this is currently happening in the tech sector, with tech related jobs going to India. This poses a problem for the US. What sector will replace tech? The service sector? I don't think the service sector can provide the types of salaries once had by those who worked in the tech sector.


The service sector will never pay what the tech industry did.
Also an entire economey based in service jobs will not survive for long.

Here in VA the 3 biggest employers are state government, the military and service jobs. If the military pulls out the service jobs go bye bye.(Lucky for my i'm involved worldwide I/T company so local problems like a base closure would not effect me. but I'm in danger of being outsoruces if the powers that be changes their attitudes on customer service.)

What do you think would happen if the entire country did nothing but service jobs. It would go to hell very quickly and the forginers would have to easy of a time to destory us.
 
Originally posted by: EatSpam
Many jobs going overseas are high skill engineering and programming jobs. What makes all the pro-outsourcing types think that Americans as a whole will always be superior to China or India? The idea smacks of racism at worst or blind ignorance at best. The Asian countries are catching up to us on all fronts and, with our insane religious government, will surpass us in stem cell research. This century will see us marginalized because of our own arrogance.
1. Most engineering/programming jobs that get outsourced are not of the 'high skilled' variety. This country still produces the best-educated engineers and programmers. China and India simply produce quantity. I am an engineer, and I'm not worried one bit about getting outsourced or not having a job lined up six months before I graduate. Why? Any Indians/Chinese who can compete with my education are getting their education right here. They make up a decent chunk of my department, simply because there aren't enough Americans to fill even the stateside demand for engineers.

2. Ethical considerations don't always stem from religious backing. Simply because you disagree with the current US policy regarding stem cell research doesn't mean only religious nutjobs oppose such research.

For someone whining about ignorance, you have more than your fair share.
 
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: EatSpam
Many jobs going overseas are high skill engineering and programming jobs. What makes all the pro-outsourcing types think that Americans as a whole will always be superior to China or India? The idea smacks of racism at worst or blind ignorance at best. The Asian countries are catching up to us on all fronts and, with our insane religious government, will surpass us in stem cell research. This century will see us marginalized because of our own arrogance.
1. Most engineering/programming jobs that get outsourced are not of the 'high skilled' variety. This country still produces the best-educated engineers and programmers. China and India simply produce quantity. I am an engineer, and I'm not worried one bit about getting outsourced or not having a job lined up six months before I graduate. Why? Any Indians/Chinese who can compete with my education are getting their education right here. They make up a decent chunk of my department, simply because there aren't enough Americans to fill even the stateside demand for engineers.

2. Ethical considerations don't always stem from religious backing. Simply because you disagree with the current US policy regarding stem cell research doesn't mean only religious nutjobs oppose such research.

For someone whining about ignorance, you have more than your fair share.

While I'll agree with the first statement, there is generally a correlation with the issuses. In the case of stem cell research; this issuse has a direct relationship with abortion. Stem Cell research is essentially the same issuse. This in-turn generally attracts a lot of people that would be considered "religious nutjobs".
 
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: ntdz
I agree with your second statement, that outsourcing is good for the country, AS A WHOLE. It might be painful individually for people losing their jobs, but better jobs are being created and primarily low skilled manufactoring jobs are being lost. We've been outsourcing jobs for decades now, and we are doing better now than we were 30 years ago...

Show better jobs being created and factoring out the uber rich that skew the numbers show proof we are doing better than 30 yrs ago.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/histinc/p10ar.html

1974 Median Income = $17,409 (Adjusted for inflation of course)
2003 Median Income = $22,672

Good for a 30% increase in Median Income in the last 30 years.

Owned?

healthcare
housing
college
energy costs

You do realize you are arguing that a 1%/yr (technically less since it's not compounded) increase in the median income is actually progress?
 
From my blog:

The idea of outsourcing is a much politicized issue these days as manufacturing facilities are shifted to other countries. Being a Mechanical Engineer specializing in Manufacturing, I hope to address some of the concerns with outsourcing and how it actually benefits everybody, not just corporations.

The first thing one must realize is the ideal number of manufacturing jobs is zero. Humans are inefficient, inaccurate, weak and slow. Over the history of manufacturing, we have made great strides to reduce the amount of labour needed to manufacture goods. For example: before forklifts, people would have to lift and move goods manually; forklifts alone eliminated many jobs, is this a bad thing? No, it?s the natural progression of the business. We are so technologically advanced these days that we literally don?t need human labour at all for some manufacturing applications. Europe with its extreme protectionist regulation is on the cutting edge of this technology, there are now ?dark factories? (requires no humans to operate) scattered around Europe and continue to be developed. German companies at one point made it company policy to invest $1 million in equipment if it could reduce one human job, saving the labour costs and benefits of employees. (Note the high unemployment in Europe)

Another misconception about outsourcing is the idea that we are losing jobs; nothing could be further from the truth. There has been a shift of jobs from the rich 1st world nations to the poorer 3rd world nations. During this shift, labour costs in the new country tend to be so low, machinery is being used much less, creating many more jobs than we could ever expect from manufacturing domestically. The shutdown of a 100 person plant here is sure to generate many times the number of jobs overseas, and that?s not even considering tertiary business like products and services people buy with their new income. ?We? as a human race are increasing the number of jobs, at the same time, helping the 3rd world build sustainable wealth.

A large concern for people in the 1st world looking in on manufacturing in the 3rd world is working conditions. This is one area I do feel people should be concerned with, as there were many mistakes made in our industrial revolution which should be prevented in the 3rd world as they become industrial powerhouses. There is a progression, and with time, people will gain wealth and demand more from their companies and countries which will give them some of the luxuries we have been accustomed to. The perception of these companies coming into the 3rd world to do business are not looked down upon by locals, they are embraced and loved. I asked this question of a new Vietnamese immigrant whom I worked with last summer. He said that the companies are well liked and they don?t consider the working conditions poor at all. The alternative to working for these companies is struggling to get by on no income whatsoever and slaving away to accomplish basic life tasks. Also, over the many years outsourcing has been practiced, 3rd world wealth has been growing drastically; these countries are gaining wealth faster than the 1st world nations and we are closing the wide gap between the rich and the poor in the world.

Outsourcing has been practiced since the 70?s and was accelerated in the 90?s; throughout this time period we were ?losing? jobs to outsourcing. The result of this was not higher unemployment and lower income jobs as some advocate, but a steady and declining unemployment rate and increasing income, well above inflation. The median (middle income, not weighted to the rich) American income since the 1990 has increased 61%, outpacing inflation by over 15%. If outsourcing is the culprit of high income job loss, it has had little to no effect on the progression of domestic wealth in a country that staunchly supports free trade and outsourcing of production. With the introduction of outsourcing, comes cheaper products, instead of buying a shirt made in the US for $30, people are now able to buy a shirt for $5; freeing up $25 in capital to invest in more products and services, raising people?s standard of living and livelihood. Cheaper goods will always be better for consumers as they are not confined to spending all their money on core essential items, but an opportunity to spend money on education and the like.

In conclusion, outsourcing is not something to be afraid of, but something to accept and embrace. The future in manufacturing is no jobs; outsourcing is not causing the loss of these jobs but allowing a transfer of effectively dead jobs to the poor of the world. The decline in domestic manufacturing has had little to no effect on our ability to generate and increase our wealth, and at the same time given the 3rd world a chance to bring themselves up out of poverty and generate wealth much faster than the richer 1st world. Leftists feel trade barriers, tariffs, and regulation is the way to save jobs; the opposite is true, this does not save jobs, but allows the jobs to die off slowly and restricts the 3rd world from benefiting from this natural progression. Where you are born should not be an issue in today?s world, restricting the good jobs for the 1st world and our own countrymen at the expense of those who actually need jobs and wealth is just wrong. If you cannot see how outsourcing benefits us domestically, try to understand how it helps those in other countries and do what is best for the human race, not just for our own chunk of the planet. To borrow a concept from the movie ?The Corporation?, the bread maker does not work to feed people, but to earn money to feed his own family. Similarly with outsourcing, companies are there for financial reasons, but in the end benefits the 3rd world more than any other form of aid ever could.
 
Originally posted by: Stunt
From my blog:

With the introduction of outsourcing, comes cheaper products, instead of buying a shirt made in the US for $30, people are now able to buy a shirt for $5; freeing up $25 in capital to invest in more products and services, raising people?s standard of living and livelihood.

Cheaper goods will always be better for consumers as they are not confined to spending all their money on core essential items, but an opportunity to spend money on education and the like.

In conclusion, outsourcing is not something to be afraid of, but something to accept and embrace.

Congratulations on the ownership of your new Bridge.

Economy 101, an Island does a Country make.
 
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Stunt
From my blog:

With the introduction of outsourcing, comes cheaper products, instead of buying a shirt made in the US for $30, people are now able to buy a shirt for $5; freeing up $25 in capital to invest in more products and services, raising people?s standard of living and livelihood.

Cheaper goods will always be better for consumers as they are not confined to spending all their money on core essential items, but an opportunity to spend money on education and the like.

In conclusion, outsourcing is not something to be afraid of, but something to accept and embrace.

You don't metnion the lost jobs that the outsourcing causes. Which causes the worker who buys shirts to either lose wages or even his job. As more people become unemployed or work for far less money in a country that outsources the worker who is now saving 25.00 on a shirt pays more for that countries defense, health care, etc, as well as earning less or losing his job.

You're argument is almost totally false.
 
Outsourcing doesn't cost us jobs; it creates jobs and prosperity. Of course the democrats will line up in this thread to disagree, but it has been publicly known for a long time that none of them on this forum know anything about economics.

Each and every one of us is a prime example of how outsourcing is beneficial. If it wasn't, we'd all be living on a farm and manufacturing our own goods. Instead, we find it beneficial to specialize in a trade, which makes us money that we can use to buy goods from other people who specialize in what we need. It's cheaper and more efficient.

Ever since we started outsourcing, many, many years ago, our country has benefited greatly from it.
 
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