Does my BIOS version really matter concerning upper-level CPU compatibility?

[BrokenVisage]

I'm upgrading the processor on my MSI K8N Neo4 Platinum mobo and so far had 2 new processors not work on me (computer will not boot with them plugged in). One is the highest Athlon 64 chip my board is compatible with (4000+) and the other is the highest Opteron chip my board is compatible with (Opteron 180). At first, the 180 did get me past the BIOS screens, but then quickly bluescreened before getting to Windows and every subsequent attempt to boot with it in there does not even get me to my BIOS logo screen now. Once I plugged my old chip back in (a 3200+) everything was gravy.

CPU Compatibility chart directly from MSI

The only thing I can think of to fix this is a BIOS update, something I'm not very fond of doing. On the MSI website I notice the "Since BIOS Version 1.D" value which seems to be the latest BIOS version available for my mobo (latest meaning back in 2006 apparently). Should this tell me that the chart being presented here is only compliant with if my mobo has this BIOS installed? I mean, what happens if I bought this board back in the day with a 4000+ instead of a 3200+? I would be screwed, which is why I think it's silly a BIOS update should be needed for CPU compatibility. But anyway, here's a capture of my current BIOS information:

BIOS Version Nvidia - 42302e31
Phoenix - AwardBIOS v6.00PG
Phoenix - AwardBIOS v6.00PG
BIOS Date 09/09/05
BIOS Web Page http://www.award.com
BIOS Vendor Phoenix Technologies, LTD
Version 6.00 PG
Release 09/09/2005
BIOS Size 512 KB
Characteristics - supports booting from ATAPI ZIP drive
- supports booting from LS-120
- supports legacy USB
- supports ACPI
- Multi Processor supported by BIOS
- supports INT 10 CGA/Mono video services
- supports INT 17 printer services
- supports INT 14 serial services
- supports INT 09 and 8042 keyboard services
- supports INT 05 print-screen
- supports INT 13 3.5-inch/2.88M floppy services
- supports INT 13 3.5-inch/720K floppy services
- supports INT 13 5.25-inch/1.2M floppy services
- supports INT 13 5.25-inch/360K floppy services
- supports Enhanced Disk Drive specification
- BIOS ROM is socketed
- supports selectable boot
- supports booting from CD-ROM
- allows BIOS shadowing
- upgradeable (Flash) BIOS
- supports APM
- supports Plug-and-Play
- supports PCI
- supports ISA
DMI Version 2.3 @000F0BE0

Doesn't look like it's the "lastest" BIOS MSI offers, in fact I can't even see a correlation between anything in my BIOS info that matches "Version 1.x". Looking at the BIOS date and comparing it with BIOS version for my board HERE leads me to believe this is the "Version 1.9" BIOS, certainly not the latest and greatest but is at least the 9th update to this family of BIOS(es).

Now, I'm willing to flash my BIOS if I must, but I hate having to fix things that just aren't broken and don't see why a motherboard that is compatible with these chips won't work without an update.

Can somebody shine a light on my situation and tell me what I should do to try and fix this? Is a BIOS flash really necessary for my situation? Am I at the point where it "doesn't hurt to try"?

TIA

 

[crimson117]

If you can post, then most likely your chip is supported by the bios, even if it starts crashing once you load windows. Try testing your other components (like your RAM) before blaming the CPU or motherboard.

If it doesn't post, then know that motherboard BIOS updates are very commonly needed to support newer processor revisions - often that's the only reason for the BIOS upgrade to even be released.

And yes, sometimes retail boards at the store will have too old of a BIOS to support the CPU that's sitting right next to it on the shelf. In that case, your options are either to borrow a friend's older processor just while you upgrade the BIOS, or order a new BIOS chip from your motherboard manufacturer. I actually had to do that (order a new chip) for an early C2D rig that I built.

 

[BrokenVisage]

Originally posted by: crimson117
If you can post, then most likely your chip is supported by the bios, even if it starts crashing once you load windows. Try testing your other components (like your RAM) before blaming the CPU or motherboard.

If it doesn't post, then know that motherboard BIOS updates are very commonly needed to support newer processor revisions - often that's the only reason for the BIOS upgrade to even be released.

And yes, sometimes retail boards at the store will have too old of a BIOS to support the CPU that's sitting right next to it on the shelf. In that case, your options are either to borrow a friend's older processor just while you upgrade the BIOS, or order a new BIOS chip from your motherboard manufacturer. I actually had to do that (order a new chip) for an early C2D rig that I built.

Interesting. Would you say that my Opteron is not supported even though the first time I tried to boot with it I almost got to Windows? Comparatively, the first time I tried to boot with my 4000+ I got nothing, just like what happens now with the Opteron.

And how would I go about testing the other components? Is it possible to have memory that works with my current processor model, but not an upper-level brother based on the same architecture? Could there be settings in my BIOS that prevent me from even posting? I'm gonna try everything I can to make this work, if I gotta buy a new BIOS chip from MSI like you did with yours then so be it.

Thanks.

 

[sutahz]

Its just a fact of life. Motherboard manufactures can only make BIOS's that are compatible w/ known microcodes.
Nope, your memory isnt a factor in compatibility.
Flash your bios, worst case you mess up the flash and your ordering a new BIOS anyways (get a chip extractor for best results, or use a bent heavy duty paper clip).

 

[Markfw]

Well, I am running an Opteron 170 on that board (@2.5 ghz), using BIOS V1.6, so bios should not be an issue. What poser supply and memory do you have ? These are all dual-cores, and you currently have a single core. Possibly the extra power drain is too much for your PSU ?

Just an idea...

 

[TheJian]

Update the bios.

Preferably with a chip that is older, but if you can't just use what you got. Get over the fear of the dreaded bios update. It's not a big deal at all. I've done a 1000 probably (pc business for 8yrs). I even do them from floppies...LOL. Despite their warnings. That's what the checksum is for anyway. IF you get a bad one don't shutdown flash it again with a different disk or something (however you choose to do it).

The v6.0PG you see there is what the bios is BASED on and NOT the actual bios of your motherboard. Award/Ami/Pheonix etc sell their bios to motherboard companies who then tweak them to their boards. To find your bios turn on your PC. You first see the black screen identifying the video card in the upper right corner. Not much text here it just usually tells you the name of the card (brand, nvidia etc) then how much memory 128,256mb etc. Then it blinks again to another screen where you get a ton of print on the screen. Hit the PAUSE button here and read the print. Bios version is usually at the bottom or at the top towards left. This is accompanied by the date of the bios.

For clarification I'm talking about the screen where you would hit DEL or F1 to enter the bios (or maybe some other key). Also the screen where it shows how much memory you have, probably the screen where tells you your cpu speed also, perhaps identifies your drives on this screen (unless you have it on raid or something). This should be on your screen in the first 2-8 seconds I'd guess. If you get to any windows screen you've went way past it. Make sure your board version matches what you are downloading for bios also! There are many times when there is a 1.x and a 2.x board etc. They will specifically tell you on their page that 2.x is NOT compatible with 1.x if that is the case. Board version will be somewhere on the PCB. Usually between the WHITE PCI slots, or around the edges of the board somewhere. It's not usually very big print either With MSI I'd say look between the PCI slots.

Hope this helps. I'm tired so ignore any grammer blah...IF it doesn't make sense I'll check in here later...rofl. Need sleep.

 

[BrokenVisage]

Originally posted by: Markfw900
Well, I am running an Opteron 170 on that board (@2.5 ghz), using BIOS V1.6, so bios should not be an issue. What poser supply and memory do you have ? These are all dual-cores, and you currently have a single core. Possibly the extra power drain is too much for your PSU ?

Just an idea...

My PSU manufacturer isn't all that great, but it's 550w model with dual rails. Here is the product page for it

But I doubt that the dual-core is draining too much power from it, as the 4000+ I tried is a single core and was giving me the same problems that the Opteron is giving me.

For memory I have a 2GB pair of dual channel Corsair sticks, part number CMX1024-3200C2, so it's PC3200 RAM. Don't know what trouble my memory could be causing, is it alright that I'm running them both on 1 channel? I had problems early on with spacing the sticks out initially and just decided to have them on same channel DIMMs. It worked so I left them in there, never really got into overclocking my memory so it didn't bother me.

Another stab at trying to figure this out is that both the 4000+ and Opteron 180 chips have steppings that indicate that were part of the last batch that was released and would be considered relatively new. Would "newer" chips like these require a BIOS update normally?

 

[BrokenVisage]

Originally posted by: TheJian
Update the bios.

Preferably with a chip that is older, but if you can't just use what you got. Get over the fear of the dreaded bios update. It's not a big deal at all. I've done a 1000 probably (pc business for 8yrs). I even do them from floppies...LOL. Despite their warnings. That's what the checksum is for anyway. IF you get a bad one don't shutdown flash it again with a different disk or something (however you choose to do it).

The v6.0PG you see there is what the bios is BASED on and NOT the actual bios of your motherboard. Award/Ami/Pheonix etc sell their bios to motherboard companies who then tweak them to their boards. To find your bios turn on your PC. You first see the black screen identifying the video card in the upper right corner. Not much text here it just usually tells you the name of the card (brand, nvidia etc) then how much memory 128,256mb etc. Then it blinks again to another screen where you get a ton of print on the screen. Hit the PAUSE button here and read the print. Bios version is usually at the bottom or at the top towards left. This is accompanied by the date of the bios.

For clarification I'm talking about the screen where you would hit DEL or F1 to enter the bios (or maybe some other key). Also the screen where it shows how much memory you have, probably the screen where tells you your cpu speed also, perhaps identifies your drives on this screen (unless you have it on raid or something). This should be on your screen in the first 2-8 seconds I'd guess. If you get to any windows screen you've went way past it. Make sure your board version matches what you are downloading for bios also! There are many times when there is a 1.x and a 2.x board etc. They will specifically tell you on their page that 2.x is NOT compatible with 1.x if that is the case. Board version will be somewhere on the PCB. Usually between the WHITE PCI slots, or around the edges of the board somewhere. It's not usually very big print either With MSI I'd say look between the PCI slots.

Hope this helps. I'm tired so ignore any grammer blah...IF it doesn't make sense I'll check in here later...rofl. Need sleep.

Yes you indeed helped me, thanks for clarifying that my BIOS info was wrong/misleading in this case. I have confirmed my boards model number and have downloaded the 1.D version from MSI's site for it and the numbers match. I will pause the BIOS screen and read into what you said as well just to make sure though and most likely I will flash when I get home tonight, but I do know exactly where you're talking about. Thanks for sharing your experience with this.

 

[Markfw]

Originally posted by: BrokenVisage

Originally posted by: Markfw900
Well, I am running an Opteron 170 on that board (@2.5 ghz), using BIOS V1.6, so bios should not be an issue. What poser supply and memory do you have ? These are all dual-cores, and you currently have a single core. Possibly the extra power drain is too much for your PSU ?

Just an idea...

My PSU manufacturer isn't all that great, but it's 550w model with dual rails. Here is the product page for it

But I doubt that the dual-core is draining too much power from it, as the 4000+ I tried is a single core and was giving me the same problems that the Opteron is giving me.

For memory I have a 2GB pair of dual channel Corsair sticks, part number CMX1024-3200C2, so it's PC3200 RAM. Don't know what trouble my memory could be causing, is it alright that I'm running them both on 1 channel? I had problems early on with spacing the sticks out initially and just decided to have them on same channel DIMMs. It worked so I left them in there, never really got into overclocking my memory so it didn't bother me.

Another stab at trying to figure this out is that both the 4000+ and Opteron 180 chips have steppings that indicate that were part of the last batch that was released and would be considered relatively new. Would "newer" chips like these require a BIOS update normally?

Well, when in doubt, try changing bios...I see you are headed that direction, I was just throwing out ideas, since my older bios works fine.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Did you try the ""MSI Live Update"" with the 'Live Monitor' - auto-detects and suggests the latest BIOS/Driver/Utilities information.

??

 

[BrokenVisage]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Did you try the ""MSI Live Update"" with the 'Live Monitor' - auto-detects and suggests the latest BIOS/Driver/Utilities information.

??

I remember using their Live Update utility when I first got the board, but after my first format I never got around to putting it back on. I downloaded it just now and performed a search, it does say my BIOS is 1.9 and suggests upgrading to 1.D, but is flashing the BIOS using this thing safe enough?

 

[TheJian]

Originally posted by: BrokenVisage

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Did you try the ""MSI Live Update"" with the 'Live Monitor' - auto-detects and suggests the latest BIOS/Driver/Utilities information.

??

I remember using their Live Update utility when I first got the board, but after my first format I never got around to putting it back on. I downloaded it just now and performed a search, it does say my BIOS is 1.9 and suggests upgrading to 1.D, but is flashing the BIOS using this thing safe enough?

Please avoid this. Nobody ever seems to quite get live updates right. Unless you have no other way to do it forget the live way on any board. I think they should just drop this idea personally. It is too easy to end up with a board you can't recover. Doing it manually is absolutely safe though (barring a power outage in the middle of your flash... ).

Your system is merely having problems talking to the new kid on the block, thats all. Flash and have fun. Forgot to address your previous statement. Yes you could get close to windows and still crash because of the bios. I've seen it a lot of times. Due to seeing this many times over 8yrs as a PC business owner (A+ certified etc) I instantly realize I didn't flash, and think "hmm...must be an old bios even though it's a new shipment of boards". They often don't bother to update at the factory and just keep running them even on a new rev (that always ticked me off - I assumed it was up to date, and crashed often on new rev's). Lazy mobo makers. OF course they assumed the buyers were oem's like I was back then. Nowadays more and more people are DIY'ers. They should think about that.

I checked you have the right version 1.D. I'm about to face the same thing with my Xeon3110 (E8400 in disguise which is NOT a problem on my board though being the same chip as the Xeon 3110). The lastest bios for my board calls out that CPU exactly! It's the only fix mentioned for the P35-DS3R. I'll flash now that I know it's on the way (YAY made it just in time...they're out of stock now and I got it for $209 at eWIZ!). I should be good to go when it gets here. Nobody has these or the 8400's in stock now. Well not for less than $270. I think eWiz didn't know what these were. I ordered at 5am, the price changed by noon and said limit 1 all of the sudden. Should have bought a few more for friends...

There are a few instances where your board maker may have EARLY info from Intel/AMD so that if you buy that board you can get a chip that comes out a week or two later that will work out of the box but its rare. Usually if the chip came after you bought the board, count on updating the bios. The board just doesn't know how to work with this new guy. Does he show up late, is he always early, does he take lunch at noon or 1pm? Once the board is told all this everyone is happy (and so are you...LOL). AMD/Intel both release later chips with enhancements that make up for, say, halving the cache etc. Your board might have worked with some old rev 4000+ that was say 2.4ghz with 1mb cache. Then they come along way later and release another 4000+ but with 512K cache but instead running faster at 2.6ghz to make up for the cache but they're both 4000+ models. So the old bios is confused. I'm not factually correct on this model (and too lazy to look up your situation) so I'm just giving an example of how you can have two same model#'s but not the same chips (I think if memory serves Winchester had larger cache then Newcastle came later with 1/2 cache and more speed but my brain is foggy today, they had a few over laps in there). I think that all makes sense

Oh yeah, if you can't see the screen I was talking about earlier for pause, go into the bios and turn off something like FULL SCREEN LOGO (depending on brand, but usually it's full screen logo). Because that logo crap covers the POST process and you can't see all the text that tells you what's going on etc. I'll check back later. Let us know how it goes. Maybe the next guy can google this thread...LOL (I love google).

You're welcome Good luck.

 

[BrokenVisage]

Sweet, that did the trick! Flashing went perfect and she booted up fine with the Opty in there.

I don't know why I didn't just flash it without asking (I can be a pussy with these kinda things) but at least now I know more about the process then ever, and I feel a little bit wiser to boot.

Thanks guys for help, and props to you TheJian for bringing a little levity to the situation along with your explanations! :thumbsup:

 

[TheJian]

Thanks...Glad to hear it worked out.

Everyone was a pussy at some point Then one day we think we can "afford a new chip/motherboard/videocard" if it dies from our abuse so why not try to overclock the crap out of it and blow it up...ROFL. Once success is tasted, from then on we all slowly go crazy.

Don't tell any of my friends...But I still believe in voltage limits...

BTW you should be able to hit 2.8+ on that chip if memory serves. Just google opteron 180 overclocking. extremeoverlocking.com and ocforums are good places to look also. That chips was really popular a while back! Of course, if you don't think its slow yet, no need to go "CRAZY"...YET...ROFL. Just don't go over the 10% voltage rule and you should be fine. Intel/AMD build that in so it's perfectly safe in most instances barring a really bad cpu. But heat will let you know quick if you got a crappy chip. Temps will soar with little to no voltage increase and just upping the mhz.

Here's a good guide:
http://icrontic.com/articles/o...ing_on_754939_platform

and

http://wiki.extremeoverclockin..._64_Overclocking_Guide

You can also search for Opteron 180 stepping which should pull up a bunch (this works for any cpu model for that matter). Have fun. Might want to just bookmark the above until you think your new chip is slow

 

[BrokenVisage]

Thanks again man, today is the day I planned to read up on how best to overclock it and you saved me a couple potential Google searches with those links. So far it idles at 30C and only got as high as 37C under load, and thats with a fresh coating of AC5 that still needs time to settle in. I'm hoping to get as close to 3.0 as possible on air, so 2.8+ would be fine with me.

Will let ya know what it caps out at once I find the sweet-spot and put it through Prime95 overnight once or twice.

 

[TheJian]

You're welcome.

Great temps, the heatsink doing well to keep it under 38 at load. I'd guess you have a pretty easy 2.8 there. Depending on your heatsink maybe more.

Jeez, just realized you have 17K+ posts...LOL. I lost mine when I hadn't posted in a while and couldn't remember what email I had when I originally signed up (Must be old age man...LOL). But I don't think I had 2000. No wonder you're on the right track. Overclocking a day after normal testing, AC5, prime95. You got it down already

Enjoy your new toy. LOL...That rhymes.