Played ME3 recently, with the Leviathan DLC and the extended cut, the ending didn't really bother me.
Think people had some unrealistic expectations. A story that branches off in vastly different ways based on your choices would be awesome, but I personally never had this expectation of ME. The cost and dev time for something like that in a AAA-title would be immense, never going to happen with an EA game.
Think people had some unrealistic expectations. A story that branches off in vastly different ways based on your choices would be awesome, but I personally never had this expectation of ME. The cost and dev time for something like that in a AAA-title would be immense, never going to happen with an EA game.
irishScott
Lifer
- Oct 10, 2006
- 21,568
- 3
- 0
Well I didn't know they promised anything.
But I don't read sales talks, they'll promise anything to get the hype going. Hell you can't even trust gameplay footage anymore (Aliens: CM).
How so? The reapers are machines. Every machine in the ME universe is controlled by a computer [program]. The catalyst is the computer that drives the reapers, it's that simple. Just like Edi drives the Normandy and the geth programs drive their "bodies". Just because you didn't see it coming doesn't mean it doesn't fit (a la Keyser Soze, Tyler Durden, The Sixth Sense, etc).
That's your interpretation, which is kind of the point. Personally I think you'd have more than enough resources for survival from scavenging the Earth and Citadel for a while at least. But on the other hand just how long interstellar travel takes without using the Relays isn't really known (iirc) so each system could become an independent shard for some undetermined amount of time too.
Abandoned how? The immediate conflict is resolved, the Reaper cycle has been broken; there's no mystery there. But part of what made Mass Effect engrossing was it's scale; even at the height of the Reaper War there was at least some lingering concern about "what comes next?" What's left open is the future of the galaxy which I think is satisfying, because each Sheperd (player) will ultimately want something different to happen (and will have acted as such); whereas I don't think anyone wanted the Reapers to win. Essentially the war can only one of three outcomes, win lose or draw. But the possibilities for the galaxy after the war are vast.
I felt the opposite. 1 was the easiest and had the simplest gameplay and classes, mostly because of the overly restrictive weapon proficiencies and healing and the unrefined cover movements which really limited what you felt like you could do. 2 went too much in the other direction, streamlining the equipment and inventory too much but I felt 3 finally struck a pretty good balance. 3 also finally introduced some actually dangerous enemies and some improved AI imo. But they're all shooters at heart.
I thought the game was exceptional. The multiplayer portion of it has proven pretty popular as well. There have been like 4 free DLC's for multiplayer and another one is set to be released soon.
On the single player, I thought the original ending wasn't bad and the extended cut was even better. Considering I've spent several hundred hours playing the single player/multiplayer I think it was well worth it.
On the single player, I thought the original ending wasn't bad and the extended cut was even better. Considering I've spent several hundred hours playing the single player/multiplayer I think it was well worth it.
The biggest problem for me was that your choices, prior to the "fixed ending", had NO consequences whatsoever in the ending.
Through out the whole entire series you are presented with a sense of choice and how you influence the direction of the universe based on your decisions, then in the last 20 minutes they just say "fuck it, all endings are the same."
That's just plain and simply laziness. Maybe if it was a high school kid writing a story you can forgive him for not tying up some major loose ends, but you expect a lot more from bioware.
Through out the whole entire series you are presented with a sense of choice and how you influence the direction of the universe based on your decisions, then in the last 20 minutes they just say "fuck it, all endings are the same."
You have no idea what happens to your comrades who fought with you through everything, no clue what happens to your lovers, no clue how the fuck the normandy even ended up through the mass effect gate. You can only assume the allied fleet managed to survive because they don't tell you what happened to them. If there was no player outcry, they wouldn't have told you ANY of these things. What the fuck happened to the quarians? Or the krogans? Or the turians? Hell, what happens to everyone? YOU DON'T KNOW. Here are some colorful explosions to make up for it. (?????)
That's just plain and simply laziness. Maybe if it was a high school kid writing a story you can forgive him for not tying up some major loose ends, but you expect a lot more from bioware.
akahoovy
Golden Member
- May 1, 2011
- 1,336
- 1
- 0
I'll probably never play ME3 because 2 was such cheesy, lazy crap. The only thing to do in that game is to probe for resources and pick the order you want to do the levels, just like fucking Mega Man. The levels were the WORST! Once you entered the combat zone, it was damn near a straight path from one fire zone to the next until you got to the boss. I hated the lack of equipment customization as well.
I agree. The shooter gameplay improved dramatically over the course of the game. Most importantly, the maps opened up (multiple paths of attack) which allowed for far more dynamic gameplay. It's really pretty amazing how big the multiplayer component of this game still is, even a year after release. For people who own the game and have barely scratched the multiplayer, you really owe it to yourselves to check it out. ME:3 was, shockingly enough, the only game to ever replace TF2 in my regular gaming rotation. Not bad for a component that was first seen as a cheesy "tack on".
IMHO the ending was not even close to the worst thing about ME:3. Origin and all the crappy DRM was. I mean, 2 minutes from launching the game just to get into some of the menus? REALLY?!?!??!
irishScott
Lifer
- Oct 10, 2006
- 21,568
- 3
- 0
Alright, since you're so liberal in your interpretations and love mystery, here's my ending that fits your criteria for satisfaction:
The reapers are controlled by a brilliant, immortal clown named bombizato, who's playing one big repeated cynical joke on the galaxy. Just because you didn't see it coming doesn't mean it doesn't fit.
The galaxy is extremely co-dependent, especially the major population centers. Imagine if every interstate road in the United States suddenly blew up. People in Boston would be starving for want of food from Iowa. Now apply a similar model to the galaxy.
Yes, the immediate conflict is resolved in one of 3 very dumb ways that all depend on space-magic. Mind control, reaper kill switch that Star Kid just let's you have access to on a lark, and fusing every living being with reaper tech.
Those aren't mind-blowing or inspiring to me, they're just lazy. I can take any amount of sci-fi technobabble and make a dozen endings that are just as "good". Especially if we're just letting space magic explain anything.
And you're oversimplifying war. There are many, MANY ways a war can end. There are many degrees of win, lose, and draw. Just look at WWII. The British, US, and Soviets "won", and then went in vastly different directions.
Bad writing aside, my primary hatred of the game stems from the fact that we were lied to. I spent 100 hours building up several playthroughs of the first two games, with the direct and explicit promise that each playthrough would result in a relatively distinct ending. IIRC Casey Hudson promised 16 distinct endings at one point. I thought at least the major choices I made at the end of each game would matter. Guess what? I was cheated out of 100 hours. Mass Effect 3 is the only game that has done that, no others even come close.
Your choices don't matter outside of side quests, it might as well be as linear as Half Life 2.
Imagine if you're playing a soccer tournament, you reach the championship, and then in the last two minutes they wipe all team records, and every team that made the playoffs gets to shoot penalty kicks to decide the winner. Bull. Shit.
If you think Mass Effect 3 is the best thing since sliced bread, fine. If being told "yeah, the story ended and shit. Now use your imagination and buy DLC!" doesn't piss you off, fine. If false advertising doesn't make your skin crawl, fine. I think you need to get your mind right.
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So. Much. Rage.
You realize that your statement actually agrees 100% with dark waffles if you include his part about "what comes after" right?The DLC that "fixed" the ending was free. I, personally, have not bought any of the DLC's, but, from what I've heard, the paid dlc's don't change the ending of the game at all.
I'm sure you would agree that suspension of disbelief is part and parcel with any science fiction game. In terms of actual science, any "space war" would involve annihilating planets/system from the vast reaches of space using extremely long range technology. Why fight a ground war at all when you can just toss a couple of meteors? Hell, if a powerful "laser gun" can be shot from light seconds away at pin point accuracy by computers (it is the vacuum of space after all) how would you ever even get close to a space ship?
My point is, complaining about the "realness" of the game is really not a good point. As a "real" game would be boring as heck. For the most part, Mass Effect created its world rules in terms of their science/world mechanics and stuck to them. That's about all you can ask for in any game/story.
Anyhow, when it comes down to your opinion that the ending was unsatisfying you certainly have valid points. There's a bit of a sense of "Deus Ex Machina" to the ending (hey, it even matches that game too) that, after such a long and involved game, can leave a person unsatisfied. Waffles has his valid points too. When you have a game as massive and epic scale as Mass Effect the ending has to be somewhat open ended. I think it's reasonable to simply say that you disagree on whether that open ending was satisfying or unsatisfying. Neither one of you is going to convince the other.
irishScott
Lifer
- Oct 10, 2006
- 21,568
- 3
- 0
So. Much. Rage.
The DLC that "fixed" the ending was free. I, personally, have not bought any of the DLC's, but, from what I've heard, the paid dlc's don't change the ending of the game at all.
I'm sure you would agree that suspension of disbelief is part and parcel with any science fiction game. In terms of actual science, any "space war" would involve annihilating planets/system from the vast reaches of space using extremely long range technology. Why fight a ground war at all when you can just toss a couple of meteors? Hell, if a powerful "laser gun" can be shot from light seconds away at pin point accuracy by computers (it is the vacuum of space after all) how would you ever even get close to a space ship?
My point is, complaining about the "realness" of the game is really not a good point. As a "real" game would be boring as heck. For the most part, Mass Effect created its world rules in terms of their science/world mechanics and stuck to them. That's about all you can ask for in any game/story.
Anyhow, when it comes down to your opinion that the ending was unsatisfying you certainly have valid points. There's a bit of a sense of "Deus Ex Machina" to the ending (hey, it even matches that game too) that, after such a long and involved game, can leave a person unsatisfied. Waffles has his valid points too. When you have a game as massive and epic scale as Mass Effect the ending has to be somewhat open ended. I think it's reasonable to simply say that you disagree on whether that open ending was satisfying or unsatisfying. Neither one of you is going to convince the other.
I get pretty pissed at anything that wastes 100 hours of my time.
Suspension of disbelief has its limits. Science fiction being the genre is not an excuse to shoe-horn shit into the plot out of thin air in an already thoroughly established Universe.
Would you suspend disbelief if at the end of Return of the Jedi an Ewok randomly used the force to grow larger than the Death Star, then used a giant stick to smash it and the entire imperial fleet? Oh and this happened while Luke and Vader were dueling, Han and Leia are still fighting, Han having been shot, and Lando was flying around inside the death star. You never see what happens to them, and then the movie ends.
No, you wouldn't. There would be hordes of people demanding their money back, and a few people like Darkwaffle who would see it as a satisfying, creative work.
I get pretty pissed at anything that wastes 100 hours of my time.
Suspension of disbelief has its limits. Science fiction being the genre is not an excuse to shoe-horn shit into the plot out of thin air in an already thoroughly established Universe.
Would you suspend disbelief if at the end of Return of the Jedi an Ewok randomly used the force to grow larger than the Death Star, then used a giant stick to smash it and the entire imperial fleet? Oh and this happened while Luke and Vader were dueling, Han and Leia are still fighting, Han having been shot, and Lando was flying around inside the death star. You never see what happens to them, and then the movie ends.
No, you wouldn't. There would be hordes of people demanding their money back, and a few people like Darkwaffle who would see it as a satisfying, creative work.
Actually I saw Star Wars as pretty crappy the whole way through. Just goes to show people can have far differing opinions on what makes a good story.
Let me amend that, I thought eps. 4-6 were okay.
Eps. 1-3 were laughably bad to me. Bad writing, poor acting, all set pieces with no substance and paper thin characters. Horribly SIMPLE plot compared to even a game like ME:3. I mean on the first Anakin/Padme falling in love scene I expected "the hills are alive to the sound of music" to start playing. Ugh, so hackneyed! For me, it wasn't until KOTOR that I gained any sort of liking to the Star Wars universe.
Even if you were to chop off the ending of ME:3 I'd put it head and shoulders above Star Wars. I cared for the characters in ME:3. I didn't give a darn about Anakin. Whiny, angry teenager goes to the dark side? Oh noes, the galaxy is going to suffer! Not to say ME:3 was perfect by any means. There are many books/movies that I'd put far above ME:3.
Back on topic. Story is a fascinating subject and everyone has different views on what makes a good tale.
Red Hawk
Diamond Member
- Jan 1, 2011
- 3,266
- 169
- 106
I've been replaying ME3 recently and I noticed that at the end of the Thessia level, where you
recover the Prothean VI in an attempt to identify the Catalyst, it tells you that there is probably some force in control of the Reapers.
Better was in the Leviathan DLC, where you
meet the race that created the Catalyst AI, and they tell you about it (but not its location), why they made it, and why the Reapers were created.
So I agree that they way it was done in the main game was not acceptable. DLC should always be supplementary to a game, not necessary to properly experience the story. A good example was ME2's Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC, which was not necessary for the main game's story but told its own engaging story.
It's been established since the first game that Mass Effect races are unable to get far around the galaxy without the mass relays. Without the mass relays, there was virtually no chance that Tali would ever see Rannoch again or that Wrex would ever see Tuchanka again. Destroying the mass relays was a pretty big "F you" to the players, intended or unintended, which essentially undid a lot of what you had worked toward in the game. It was one of the biggest things the Extended Cut fixed.
I agree. 1 had a lot of problems in its RPG mechanics, with too many weapons with little difference between them, overly complicated leveling up with little depth, and an inventory that quickly got clogged up and bloated. ME2 improved by differentiating between classes more, with powers like the Vanguard's Biotic Charge, the Infiltrator's Cloak, Engineer's Drone, etc., and differentiated between weapons more, but it oversimplified leveling up and upgrades. ME3 brought more depth to leveling up and restored ME1's weapons upgrades without bringing back the bloated inventory.
Level and battle design improved between the games also; ME1 never really had tense combat moments. ME2 and ME3 had plenty. I found myself strategizing constantly, with different enemies calling for different tactics; for example, against a cluster of Reaper Cannibals I would use Singularity to yank them out of cover and Warp to detonate a biotic explosion. Against a Cerberus Atlas Mech, I would have my squad focus fire on it and use squadmate tech powers to drain its shields, then hit its armor with Warp and use Throw to detonate the Warp into a Biotic Explosion. Enemy AI improved between the games; ME3 was the most challenging strategically, as enemies would roll to avoid attacks, throw grenades to flush you out of cover, and actively try to flank you.
And it may seem like ME1 had more conversation options than ME2 or ME3, but it really didn't. It just gave you the illusion of choice. Often you would be presented with three conversation options...all of which resulted in Shepard saying the same exact thing. ME2 and ME3 set aside that illusion of choice, which allowed cinematics to have a little more flexibility in the moments that Shepard talked. The interrupt system introduced in ME2 was a welcome innovation, as it gave conversations a bit more of a dynamic feeling. Also, Shepard got a lot more characterization in ME3 than he ever did in ME1 and ME2.
At least with regards to the war with the Reapers, there weren't very many ways it could end. They were an alien force whose only need, only goal, was to wipe out advanced civilization. There could be no negotiation, it was either they win and we all die or we win and they all die.
Casey's "promise" of "16 different endings" ultimately proved untrue, but choices from previous games did effect the state of the galaxy at the end (or at least, was intended to). Sparing Wrex on Virmire, saving the Maelon's genophage research, and choosing whether or not to listen to the salarian Dalatross all effected the outcome of the events on Tuchanka (there is one outcome where, if Wrex is dead and Maelon's data was not saved, you can actually convince Mordin to not go up to the tower and instead join the Crucible project). Rewriting or destroying the geth Heretics and clearing the charges against Tali effect the outcome of the events on Rannoch. Saving Miranda's sister and giving her Alliance resources effects events on Sanctuary, saving the Rachni Queen and getting Grunt through his rite of passage effects events on Aralakh, helping Jack work through her issues effects events at Grissom Academy, etc., etc.
They don't all necessarily tie into the ending, and the fact that none of the specific "war assets" really tie into cinematics or gameplay in the final battle is a lamentable missed opportunity. But the circumstances of the galaxy are different in various ways by the end, depending on your choices, and this is reflected in the slides shown during the Extended Cut ending.
(of course, a lot of this is fundamentally undone by the mass relays being destroyed. Which is why I am glad they weren't destroyed in the Extended Cut).
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Nice reply, Red Hawk. Well thought out. Hey, if you ever plan on picking up multiplayer hit me up. Origin name is Mopbucket0. Currently maxed manifest and play regularly on Gold+.
exar333
Diamond Member
- Feb 7, 2004
- 8,518
- 8
- 91
thejunglegod
Golden Member
- Feb 12, 2012
- 1,358
- 36
- 91
I just wanted to see a cut scene on which Wrex and his krogans pawn a group of Brutes, Garrus sniping a few Collectors, Edi using her bionic powers on some banshees, Anderson and his group of marines strategically taking out husks, the rachni queen and her minions on a one on one with Harbinger. All this while shephard went ahead with the star kid rendezvous.
I would've been happy if they would've just put in that cut scene.
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I would've been happy if they would've just put in that cut scene.
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Red Hawk
Diamond Member
- Jan 1, 2011
- 3,266
- 169
- 106
If you don't like twitch-based shooters in general, then fine, that's an ok reason not to enjoy Mass Effect. But when it comes to stuff like story structure, character customization, etc.? Mass Effect 3 is nothing like Call of Duty, Gears of War, or their ilk. The only thing Mass Effect really borrowed from them as the games progressed was how fluidly they controlled (which was a good thing).
Pfft, Garrus was at my side putting Black Widow slugs through the skulls of whatever I told him, he ain't got time for cutscenes!
thejunglegod
Golden Member
- Feb 12, 2012
- 1,358
- 36
- 91
Red Hawk said:
AFAIK, he lay dead on the ground thanks to Harbingers laser in the final push towards the catalyst/citadel.
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Red Hawk
Diamond Member
- Jan 1, 2011
- 3,266
- 169
- 106
TallBill
Lifer
- Apr 29, 2001
- 46,044
- 62
- 91
Red Hawk
Diamond Member
- Jan 1, 2011
- 3,266
- 169
- 106
Well anyone who didn't get all the squad members' loyalty at the end of 2 was just lazy and deserved that.
TallBill
Lifer
- Apr 29, 2001
- 46,044
- 62
- 91
Well anyone who didn't get all the squad members' loyalty at the end of 2 was just lazy and deserved that.
Not true. I had full loyalty and lost it with Tali because of my decisions. Then lost her.
Red Hawk
Diamond Member
- Jan 1, 2011
- 3,266
- 169
- 106
Then either you made a stupid decision or you were too lazy to keep your options open.
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