Does God forgive a murder who accepts Jesus in his heart?

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Bachopoet

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: LOLyourFace
Since you asked, Christian God gives us unconditional love. And as long as we repent and accept it, anyone can go to heaven at anytime.

Does that exempt the person from consequences? No, there's a difference between forgiveness of sins and taking the responsibility for it.

Wrong. The Chrisitan God is one of very conditional love. If you don't believe in him, he sends you to burn in hell for all eternity. True unconditional love would be him loving us no matter what we do. Unless his love manifests itself as punishing us for all eternity, I don't buy that uncoditional love crap.

The problem with that theory is the fact that since God loves us unconditionally, he is not willing to force his presence on us. He wants US to want Him before he will bring us into his presence. He has given us free choice, and he loves us enough to let us make the wrong choice, even to our own destruction, so that we can understand unconditional love ourselves. God DOES love us no matter what we do, but he still has to punish us. A loving father punishes his children because he loves them and wants them to grow up into mature, loving and moral people, not because he is angry with them and hates them.
There have been several times when God has been angry with his children and punished them, but he always acted out of love. They never got more punishment than they deserved, and what's more, they always had the option to come back to him. At one point it says in the Bible that God will let out a mighty roar, and his children will return to him, whimpering for his forgiveness, and he will welcome them with open arms.

Well unless this is some big Christian secret, I think when you go to Hell, you are just SOL. Yes, a parent will punish their children if they love them and want them to grow up to be good people, but that is different from what God does. For that to be a correct analogy, the parent would let their kid do whatever they wanted and then, at some random date, whip out a gun and shoot their kid. No warning, no second chances. When you die, if you don't believe that God is the only way to be saved, you are well and truly screwed for all eternity.

Look, if God doesn't like what I'm doing, he should tell me so. I would be happy to listen to Him. But letting me live my life as I want, and I'll only find out I'm wrong when it's far too late sounds a little odd to me.

 

[Bachopoet]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Bachopoet

The problem with that theory is the fact that since God loves us unconditionally, he is not willing to force his presence on us. He wants US to want Him before he will bring us into his presence. He has given us free choice, and he loves us enough to let us make the wrong choice, even to our own destruction, so that we can understand unconditional love ourselves. God DOES love us no matter what we do, but he still has to punish us. A loving father punishes his children because he loves them and wants them to grow up into mature, loving and moral people, not because he is angry with them and hates them.
There have been several times when God has been angry with his children and punished them, but he always acted out of love. They never got more punishment than they deserved, and what's more, they always had the option to come back to him. At one point it says in the Bible that God will let out a mighty roar, and his children will return to him, whimpering for his forgiveness, and he will welcome them with open arms.

Well unless this is some big Christian secret, I think when you go to Hell, you are just SOL. Yes, a parent will punish their children if they love them and want them to grow up to be good people, but that is different from what God does. For that to be a correct analogy, the parent would let their kid do whatever they wanted and then, at some random date, whip out a gun and shoot their kid. No warning, no second chances. When you die, if you don't believe that God is the only way to be saved, you are well and truly screwed for all eternity.

Look, if God doesn't like what I'm doing, he should tell me so. I would be happy to listen to Him. But letting me live my life as I want, and I'll only find out I'm wrong when it's far too late sounds a little odd to me.

Well, it isn't a secret, but I think many Christians unfortunately don't know how to communicate it so people understand.

I think the analogy holds... letting the kid do whatever he wants and then whipping out a deagle and shooting them is not what's going on, no matter how much it may seem like that.
A good parent does not keep his child sheltered his whole life, and does let them do what they want, with supervision and guidance. And if he screws up, the parent corrects him or punishes him. That guidance is available to us in the Bible and in prayer, that supervision is always going on, however creepy you might think that, and that punishment I spoke of does happen proactively DURING life as well to teach us about the world and the consequences for disobedience.
As for going to hell, that punishment is the one that God hates to give out so much so that the main banner of his campaign on this earth is for keeping people from going to hell. He is the only way that hell is avoidable, and he knows it. He's not trying to get as many people as possible to go to hell. He's trying to do the opposite, but if we choose to ignore Him, He's going to do what's right.

When all things pass away and what lasts becomes infinite, there is infinitely in his presence and protection, and infinitely away from his presence and in torture. He's not trying to trick us. He's just showing us that we have no effect on anything in this world except through him. A single mutated cell, and we die. A high energy particle, the smallest thing in the universe, can kill us without a moment. This is our lot. We have earned death, and that is not avoidable. But he has given us the opportunity to reconcile to Him and avoid dying perpetually. Christ did not earn death, but still he died, and in doing so he removed the eternal aspect of death from our fate and paid back the debt we earned. We can choose to align ourselves with that gift, or we can choose to pay it ourselves.

 

[JackBurton]

Hey, if you pray to the Easter Bunny, will you go to Easter Bunny land? That sounds fun too...and just as far fetched as heaven.

The answer to your question is, NO, the murderer will NOT go to heaven...but then again, neither will anyone else. I can't believe people still believe in "make believe land." :disgust:

 

[Moonbeam]

Well am I confused. First we have to follow God's law and kill killers, right away because God wants us to turn to him more than anything, but wants us to cut short the time available for that for killers as much as possible.

It may be true that we don't understand God, but it's seems rather clear to me that the explanations I've heard here make about as much sense as a three pound note.

It just seems that with everything, you peal back a few layers and you get gibberish or something like it.

I don't think I want to put anybody to death. I'd doubtless be embarassed by my reasons.

 

[Athlon4all]

Look, if God doesn't like what I'm doing, he should tell me so.

He is. The Holy Spirit bears wotmess. amd "the invisible attributes of God are clearly seen" (Romans 1:18-21).

First we have to follow God's law and kill killers, right away because God wants us to turn to him more than anything, but wants us to cut short the time available for that for killers as much as possible.

Wrong. First, you need to accept Jesus Christ into your heart and take the LORD at His Word. Forget following "God's laws." You get to do good works for the LORD when you accept Christ. And He hasn't cut short the time available for anyone. As I've said before, God manifests himself to everyone.

Look at nature. Look mat the complexity of the human cell and body. Anyone (I'm a 10th grade Biology student) can clearly see how incredibly complex the human cell, and every living cell has, and the complexity of so many millions of cells working together in animals, man, and plants to live, and to see how the balance of live is so unique and if one thing drastically changed in the environment (and this applies to the earth as well!)

 

[PistachioByAzul]

That's quite a jump, things are beyond our understanding, therefore they must be attributed to the particular perception of a higher power I happen to subscribe to.

 

[Metalloid]

Look, if God doesn't like what I'm doing, he should tell me so.

He does. Ever heard of something called a guilty conscience?

 

[Metalloid]

Originally posted by: JackBurton
Hey, if you pray to the Easter Bunny, will you go to Easter Bunny land? That sounds fun too...and just as far fetched as heaven.

The answer to your question is, NO, the murderer will NOT go to heaven...but then again, neither will anyone else. I can't believe people still believe in "make believe land." :disgust:

How do you know that there is not a heaven? Have you ever died and not experienced everything.

Here is how I know that there is a heaven. I have died. No my body has not physically perished, but my sinful nature has died, and I was born again. I now experience God's love in my life, and I can feel it. I may not have actually been to heaven, but I am positive it is there. Once you see and feel God in your life, you will know also.

 

[JackBurton]

How do you know that there is not a heaven? Have you ever died and not experienced everything.

Here is how I know that there is a heaven. I have died. No my body has not physically perished, but my sinful nature has died, and I was born again. I now experience God's love in my life, and I can feel it. I may not have actually been to heaven, but I am positive it is there. Once you see and feel God in your life, you will know also.

How do you know there is not an Easter Bunny land? Have you died?

Here is how I know that there is an Easter Bunny land. I have died too. No my body did not physically perish, but I lost all my Easter eggs one day and the Easter Bunny came to me (of course no one else saw him but me) and helped me find them. I now live by the guidance of the Easter Bunny, and he has promised me that if I am good and hide all my eggs on Easter day, I will go to Easter Bunny land after I die. I may not have been to Easter Bunny land, but I am positive it is there. Once you see and feel the Easter Bunny in your life, you will also know.

Sounds just as plausible, right? Notice that I used the EXACT amount of proof in "my experience" as you did. And after what I've told you, I'm sure you now believe in heaven AND Easter Bunny land.

 

[Metalloid]

Originally posted by: JackBurton

How do you know that there is not a heaven? Have you ever died and not experienced everything.

Here is how I know that there is a heaven. I have died. No my body has not physically perished, but my sinful nature has died, and I was born again. I now experience God's love in my life, and I can feel it. I may not have actually been to heaven, but I am positive it is there. Once you see and feel God in your life, you will know also.

How do you know there is not an Easter Bunny land? Have you died?

Here is how I know that there is an Easter Bunny land. I have died too. No my body did not physically perish, but I lost all my Easter eggs one day and the Easter Bunny came to me (of course no one else saw him but me) and helped me find them. I now live by the guidance of the Easter Bunny, and he has promised me that if I am good and hide all my eggs on Easter day, I will go to Easter Bunny land after I die. I may not have been to Easter Bunny land, but I am positive it is there. Once you see and feel the Easter Bunny in your life, you will also know.

Sounds just as plausible, right? Notice that I used the EXACT amount of proof in "my experience" as you did. And after what I've told you, I'm sure you now believe in heaven AND Easter Bunny land.

No it does not sound just as plausible. What it sounds like to me is that you are mocking God, which is very bad my friend. And the reason I don't believe in Easter Bunny Land (even after your wonderful story), is because that didn't really happen to you. But I AM a born again christian, and I do feel God in my life. That my friend, unlike the Easter Bunny, is real.

EDIT: Also there are no written documents of the Easter Bunny dying on a cross.

 

[JackBurton]

You dare question the Easter Bunny? That is VERY bad my friend! I'd like you to know that was my true experience, and I can't believe you'd doubt me (although I'm the only one who can see and talk to the Easter Bunny). It was as real as yours. I am a born again Easter Bunny believer and I feel him in my life every day. And that my friend, unlike fairies, is real. But everyone knows fairies aren't real, that is just ludicrous.

EDIT: Also there are no written documents of the Easter Bunny dying on a cross.

No there isn't but documents DO show A LOT of people have been crucified. If that is your criteria, I guess you have A LOT of Gods. I only have one, the Easter Bunny.

 

[DoNotDisturb]

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: LOLyourFace
just read the title, and the answer is yes. As long as it's genuine

If Hitler was genuine and accepted Jesus as his lord and savior before he died....yup, we would be seeing old Adolph in heaven.

hope that he did then, i want to see Adolph.

 

[Metalloid]

Originally posted by: JackBurton
You dare question the Easter Bunny? That is VERY bad my friend! I'd like you to know that was my true experience, and I can't believe you'd doubt me (although I'm the only one who can see and talk to the Easter Bunny). It was as real as yours. I am a born again Easter Bunny believer and I feel him in my life every day. And that my friend, unlike fairies, is real. But everyone knows fairies aren't real, that is just ludicrous.

EDIT: Also there are no written documents of the Easter Bunny dying on a cross.

No there isn't but documents DO show A LOT of people have been crucified. If that is your criteria, I guess you have A LOT of Gods. I only have one, the Easter Bunny.

It wasn't just being crucified that made Jesus Christ so special. Dying on a cross was the death of a sinner. Jesus Christ was the only person to EVER live a perfect, sinless life. And then he died on a cross, even though that was a sinner's death. All of those people have been crucified for their own sins. Jesus was crucified for our sins. That's what makes it different.

 

[Metalloid]

And yes if Hitler was a christain he would be in heaven. But, there is no way that Hitler was a christian. No true christian would kill his God's chosen people.

 

[JackBurton]

It wasn't just being crucified that made Jesus Christ so special. Dying on a cross was the death of a sinner. Jesus Christ was the only person to EVER live a perfect, sinless life. And then he died on a cross, even though that was a sinner's death. All of those people have been crucified for their own sins. Jesus was crucified for our sins. That's what makes it different.

You're telling me you actually believe this, or do you just like reciting what they told you in Sunday school? I mean, do you actually THINK about what comes out of your mouth? I swear, when I talk to people like you, it is almost like talking to a special ed student! Well you know what, I take that back...special ed students can reason better.

 

[Moonbeam]

To get back to what I was thinking about, Metaloid, if Hitler in his last few days or hours saw the light, what point, after that, would there be in trying to kill him. THE MR. HITLER that we hate would have disappeared in God's love, according to Christianity, right. That's why I can't make any sense of the death penalty and Christian faith. The guilty party, in some cases, has departed and what is left is a real Christian. What kind of nut case puts real Christians to death? I just don't get it. Sorry

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Another, probably better question to ask is, are we depriving those we execute the chance of being saved?

 

[Moonbeam]

I also suggested that.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I also suggested that.

I figured someone would have, I'm just late to the party and didn't want to read through all the previous posts.

 

[Greyd]

Originally posted by: JackBurton

It wasn't just being crucified that made Jesus Christ so special. Dying on a cross was the death of a sinner. Jesus Christ was the only person to EVER live a perfect, sinless life. And then he died on a cross, even though that was a sinner's death. All of those people have been crucified for their own sins. Jesus was crucified for our sins. That's what makes it different.

You're telling me you actually believe this, or do you just like reciting what they told you in Sunday school? I mean, do you actually THINK about what comes out of your mouth? I swear, when I talk to people like you, it is almost like talking to a special ed student! Well you know what, I take that back...special ed students can reason better.

Ooo good now then insults start.

So far the discussion has been a good one. People don't agree on certain things, but each is entitled to their opinion. Discussion is good. Insulting people because they don't agree with you....great....

 

[Greyd]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Athlon4all
God will forgive any sin, if the person will accept Jesus' perfect sacrifice for their sin. He forgave David in his terrible sin of Aduletry, Murder, and lies. And even the redeemed, true believers in Jesus Christ, sadly sin. We don't need to, "If anyone is in Christ, He is a new creation, old things have passed away, behold all things have become new" (I Cor 5:17).

If one has truly accepted Jesus Christ into their heart, and not just gotten baptized, not become just a member of some church, then he will have the Holy Spirit in Him, and the believer will be worked in greatly and will see more and more of the LORD.

I would ecnourage all you that read this to seriously, consider accepting Christ into your heart. "Jesus is the way, the truth and the life", and "He came that you might have life, and have it more abundantly." He wants to be in a relationship and be in fellowship with you, thats right you, and every single man that has ever lived on this planet, but He is a Holy God, and cannot tolerate or be in one who is accountable for his sins. If you will let Him into your heart, then in God the Father's eyes, will be cleansed. Will you still sin? Probably, but you don't need to and the LORD will continue to work the sin out of you. Jesus Christ is the prince of Peace. Only through Him will you or anyone find peace, happiness or fulfillment.

I will warn you who have not accepted Christ, that if you continue to refuse Christ, that you will be Judged, you will be held accoutnable for the sins that you have done. Don't think that you're a "good Christian person." "All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God," and see the LORD God is the just judge. He is going to judge all those who have not accepted Jesus Christ, and thus are accountable for their sins. Some of you may be wonderign how this "God of Love" that the Bible talks about can judge and send everyone who doesn't accept Christ to Hell. He has given you every oppertunity to repend. Every second of every day, right now, Jesus is knocking at the door of your heart, and the Holy Spirit is bearing witness to you of Christ, but you choose consciously, to reject Him. If He was this "terrible, impersonal, mean daddy," then He would've had Adam and Eve leave the garden, with no hope for eternal life or fellowship with Him. He would've smoked the Children of Israel riight when they forsook the LORD, not to mention He would've never sent Jesus Christ to this earth, and he wouldn't put up with all those who have accepted Him, who still live in Sin!!!

The LORD is love, and he is giving each and every one of you every oppertunity for you to accept Christ, but I warn you. Judgment is coming! And the only way to salvation is Jesus Christ.

With all due respect to your beliefs, I am not rejecting God, or Jesus. I am rejecting you, and everyone who believes as you do. You say God gives me every opportunity to repent and be saved, but the only ones I hear from are his followers. Now your God may be perfect, but humans are, as you would agree, dishonest people who lie constantly to get what they want. Why in the world should I believe you over anyone else? How can God be just if he is going to punish me for not believing the church, a group of imperfect people if ever there was one? What comes after life is the most important thing to you, yet I am just supposed to take your word for it, and if I don't, I'm damned for all eternity. I doubt God would give me this great, problem solving brain, and just expect me to make the most important decision of my life because you told me to. Now you can say "it's not my word, it's God's" all you want, but while you could be right, you could be making it all up, and I have no way of knowing that. So answer me this question. Why would God want to punish us for thinking for ourselves and not believing in something simply because we are told it is true?

Exaclty, why should you believe someone over someone else? So they key is to look at the Bible. You have to study it intensely to figure out if what is says is true and reliable. If it is indeed the supposed revelation of God. If it is indeed reliable and INERRANT then you can't deny its claims - you can refuse it, but you can't ignore it. There ais much evidence that points to the inerrancy and reliability of the Bible. If you wan't me to, I can post/email just some of the things that point to the inerrancy and reliability of the Bible.

 

[TheShiz]

hmm lets see. God created everything, is all knowing, and all powerful. Thus he created the man that murdered the other man, so the question becomes, does God forgive himself?

Tim

 

[TheShiz]

Originally posted by: Greyd

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Athlon4all
God will forgive any sin, if the person will accept Jesus' perfect sacrifice for their sin. He forgave David in his terrible sin of Aduletry, Murder, and lies. And even the redeemed, true believers in Jesus Christ, sadly sin. We don't need to, "If anyone is in Christ, He is a new creation, old things have passed away, behold all things have become new" (I Cor 5:17).

If one has truly accepted Jesus Christ into their heart, and not just gotten baptized, not become just a member of some church, then he will have the Holy Spirit in Him, and the believer will be worked in greatly and will see more and more of the LORD.

I would ecnourage all you that read this to seriously, consider accepting Christ into your heart. "Jesus is the way, the truth and the life", and "He came that you might have life, and have it more abundantly." He wants to be in a relationship and be in fellowship with you, thats right you, and every single man that has ever lived on this planet, but He is a Holy God, and cannot tolerate or be in one who is accountable for his sins. If you will let Him into your heart, then in God the Father's eyes, will be cleansed. Will you still sin? Probably, but you don't need to and the LORD will continue to work the sin out of you. Jesus Christ is the prince of Peace. Only through Him will you or anyone find peace, happiness or fulfillment.

I will warn you who have not accepted Christ, that if you continue to refuse Christ, that you will be Judged, you will be held accoutnable for the sins that you have done. Don't think that you're a "good Christian person." "All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God," and see the LORD God is the just judge. He is going to judge all those who have not accepted Jesus Christ, and thus are accountable for their sins. Some of you may be wonderign how this "God of Love" that the Bible talks about can judge and send everyone who doesn't accept Christ to Hell. He has given you every oppertunity to repend. Every second of every day, right now, Jesus is knocking at the door of your heart, and the Holy Spirit is bearing witness to you of Christ, but you choose consciously, to reject Him. If He was this "terrible, impersonal, mean daddy," then He would've had Adam and Eve leave the garden, with no hope for eternal life or fellowship with Him. He would've smoked the Children of Israel riight when they forsook the LORD, not to mention He would've never sent Jesus Christ to this earth, and he wouldn't put up with all those who have accepted Him, who still live in Sin!!!

The LORD is love, and he is giving each and every one of you every oppertunity for you to accept Christ, but I warn you. Judgment is coming! And the only way to salvation is Jesus Christ.

With all due respect to your beliefs, I am not rejecting God, or Jesus. I am rejecting you, and everyone who believes as you do. You say God gives me every opportunity to repent and be saved, but the only ones I hear from are his followers. Now your God may be perfect, but humans are, as you would agree, dishonest people who lie constantly to get what they want. Why in the world should I believe you over anyone else? How can God be just if he is going to punish me for not believing the church, a group of imperfect people if ever there was one? What comes after life is the most important thing to you, yet I am just supposed to take your word for it, and if I don't, I'm damned for all eternity. I doubt God would give me this great, problem solving brain, and just expect me to make the most important decision of my life because you told me to. Now you can say "it's not my word, it's God's" all you want, but while you could be right, you could be making it all up, and I have no way of knowing that. So answer me this question. Why would God want to punish us for thinking for ourselves and not believing in something simply because we are told it is true?

Exaclty, why should you believe someone over someone else? So they key is to look at the Bible. You have to study it intensely to figure out if what is says is true and reliable. If it is indeed the supposed revelation of God. If it is indeed reliable and INERRANT then you can't deny its claims - you can refuse it, but you can't ignore it. There ais much evidence that points to the inerrancy and reliability of the Bible. If you wan't me to, I can post/email just some of the things that point to the inerrancy and reliability of the Bible.

uh, the bible says that the sun stood still for a period of time, who believes that? The bible says the earth is only thousands of years old. These things are very understandable considering they were written by MAN thousands of years ago. To hold on to such ancient writings is obviously going to be very flawed, just ask 99% of scientists. Christian scientists don't count because all they do is attempt to prove worthwhile science wrong. Religion has seriously slowed the development of the human race, take for instance the destruction of the library of alexandria. What gets me is people trying to force it on others. Thank goodness we have moved beyond that in the world we live in today, where thinking people can live in peace.

Tim

 

[Greyd]

Originally posted by: TheShiz
hmm lets see. God created everything, is all knowing, and all powerful. Thus he created the man that murdered the other man, so the question becomes, does God forgive himself?

Tim

Question has already been answered/debated.....read the previous posts.

 

[Greyd]

Originally posted by: TheShiz

Originally posted by: Greyd

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Athlon4all
God will forgive any sin, if the person will accept Jesus' perfect sacrifice for their sin. He forgave David in his terrible sin of Aduletry, Murder, and lies. And even the redeemed, true believers in Jesus Christ, sadly sin. We don't need to, "If anyone is in Christ, He is a new creation, old things have passed away, behold all things have become new" (I Cor 5:17).

If one has truly accepted Jesus Christ into their heart, and not just gotten baptized, not become just a member of some church, then he will have the Holy Spirit in Him, and the believer will be worked in greatly and will see more and more of the LORD.

I would ecnourage all you that read this to seriously, consider accepting Christ into your heart. "Jesus is the way, the truth and the life", and "He came that you might have life, and have it more abundantly." He wants to be in a relationship and be in fellowship with you, thats right you, and every single man that has ever lived on this planet, but He is a Holy God, and cannot tolerate or be in one who is accountable for his sins. If you will let Him into your heart, then in God the Father's eyes, will be cleansed. Will you still sin? Probably, but you don't need to and the LORD will continue to work the sin out of you. Jesus Christ is the prince of Peace. Only through Him will you or anyone find peace, happiness or fulfillment.

I will warn you who have not accepted Christ, that if you continue to refuse Christ, that you will be Judged, you will be held accoutnable for the sins that you have done. Don't think that you're a "good Christian person." "All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God," and see the LORD God is the just judge. He is going to judge all those who have not accepted Jesus Christ, and thus are accountable for their sins. Some of you may be wonderign how this "God of Love" that the Bible talks about can judge and send everyone who doesn't accept Christ to Hell. He has given you every oppertunity to repend. Every second of every day, right now, Jesus is knocking at the door of your heart, and the Holy Spirit is bearing witness to you of Christ, but you choose consciously, to reject Him. If He was this "terrible, impersonal, mean daddy," then He would've had Adam and Eve leave the garden, with no hope for eternal life or fellowship with Him. He would've smoked the Children of Israel riight when they forsook the LORD, not to mention He would've never sent Jesus Christ to this earth, and he wouldn't put up with all those who have accepted Him, who still live in Sin!!!

The LORD is love, and he is giving each and every one of you every oppertunity for you to accept Christ, but I warn you. Judgment is coming! And the only way to salvation is Jesus Christ.

With all due respect to your beliefs, I am not rejecting God, or Jesus. I am rejecting you, and everyone who believes as you do. You say God gives me every opportunity to repent and be saved, but the only ones I hear from are his followers. Now your God may be perfect, but humans are, as you would agree, dishonest people who lie constantly to get what they want. Why in the world should I believe you over anyone else? How can God be just if he is going to punish me for not believing the church, a group of imperfect people if ever there was one? What comes after life is the most important thing to you, yet I am just supposed to take your word for it, and if I don't, I'm damned for all eternity. I doubt God would give me this great, problem solving brain, and just expect me to make the most important decision of my life because you told me to. Now you can say "it's not my word, it's God's" all you want, but while you could be right, you could be making it all up, and I have no way of knowing that. So answer me this question. Why would God want to punish us for thinking for ourselves and not believing in something simply because we are told it is true?

Exaclty, why should you believe someone over someone else? So they key is to look at the Bible. You have to study it intensely to figure out if what is says is true and reliable. If it is indeed the supposed revelation of God. If it is indeed reliable and INERRANT then you can't deny its claims - you can refuse it, but you can't ignore it. There ais much evidence that points to the inerrancy and reliability of the Bible. If you wan't me to, I can post/email just some of the things that point to the inerrancy and reliability of the Bible.

uh, the bible says that the sun stood still for a period of time, who believes that? The bible says the earth is only thousands of years old. These things are very understandable considering they were written by MAN thousands of years ago. To hold on to such ancient writings is obviously going to be very flawed, just ask 99% of scientists. Christian scientists don't count because all they do is attempt to prove worthwhile science wrong. Religion has seriously slowed the development of the human race, take for instance the destruction of the library of alexandria. What gets me is people trying to force it on others. Thank goodness we have moved beyond that in the world we live in today, where thinking people can live in peace.

Tim

Explain ot me how you know that the sun could never stand still? A couple of hundred years ago, people thought the world was flat. They also thought malaria was caused by the night air. Yes, I'm being facetious...but you get my point.

Additionally, it is a mistake to try to investigate the reliability of the Bible scientifically. The most appropriate angle to approach indetifying the reliability of the Bible is to study it historically. Investigating the writers, the manuscripts,etc. According to my original proposition/statement, the application of "science" as you are defining it has little or nothing to do with historical texts. Like I said before, PM me and I'll send you some evidences and proofs.

EDIT: definition of "science" in this post is related to TheShiz's post