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Does God forgive a murder who accepts Jesus in his heart?
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Skyclad1uhm1
Lifer
And did all the Orthodox Jews at that time like it? Did all the prophets receive a warm welcome before him?
Same can be said for Muhammed, I doubt the Pope stood cheering him on.
Imagine always explaining your own view on the religion as the absolute truth, and suddenly someone with more authority arriving and saying you are wrong.
Haven't had time to read all the posts... but....
Jesus' death on the cross wiped the slate clean as far as condemnation being a payment for sin. We are each returned to a position nearly that of Adam's wherein we are given a choice in life... to ultimately choose to accept the truth of who God is and what He did for us on the Cross or not.
God gives us an entire lifetime to choose... and He is so kind that He is long suffering and patient and will let us choose the wrong over and over again... giving us more opportunities to accept what is right. The fact that He would let a mass murderer/serial rapist/child molester/Hitler/You Name it.... be saved shows God's great mercy. The sins of the person who accepts God's gift (with respect to condemation) are nailed to the Cross with Christ... Jesus died for all the sins that anyone commits.... except one... disbelief in Him.
This goes against what we think is fair, but God doesn't play fair... if He did, He wouldn't have gone to the Cross for things HE never did, but in fairness would have let us suffer for our own wrong doings. Instead, He is fully understands the fact that we could never dig ourselves out of the hole we are in, so He did it for us and gave us instead a much easier burden to bear... simply accept that He is who He says He is and accept that He paid the penalty for your sins.
Many would argure that this leads to some sort of "loophole" we can use... live a bad life and just make sure that at the very end we say the magical "I believe" prayer and we get a free pass to Heaven. The only problem with that is that God is not going to be used. If that person on the deathbed is TRULY repentent of what he has done and TRULY turns to God and would be a changed person if they were to live... God knows that. OTOH, if the person couldn't care less about God or his fellow man and had no love in his heart but was trying to use God's mercy like some piece of IRS code... God knows that too.... and from what I see in the Bible it doesn't count.
I for one am thankful that God doesn't condemn us for our deeds... my future wouldn't look good if He did. OTOH, His mercy and forgiveness make me thankful and make me desire to live differently than I did before... offering Him back my life and whatever good I do, not as "payment" or a way to earn the salvation He gave me for free, but as a gift of appreciation to Him for what He has done... a gift from me freely given.
I think we get mixed up when we think of a "Loving God". We want God to keep a scorecard, but salvation and condemnation He doesn't. He gives us a whole life to choose Him or self... and when we die, He simply gives us what we chose.
Joe
Jesus' death on the cross wiped the slate clean as far as condemnation being a payment for sin. We are each returned to a position nearly that of Adam's wherein we are given a choice in life... to ultimately choose to accept the truth of who God is and what He did for us on the Cross or not.
God gives us an entire lifetime to choose... and He is so kind that He is long suffering and patient and will let us choose the wrong over and over again... giving us more opportunities to accept what is right. The fact that He would let a mass murderer/serial rapist/child molester/Hitler/You Name it.... be saved shows God's great mercy. The sins of the person who accepts God's gift (with respect to condemation) are nailed to the Cross with Christ... Jesus died for all the sins that anyone commits.... except one... disbelief in Him.
This goes against what we think is fair, but God doesn't play fair... if He did, He wouldn't have gone to the Cross for things HE never did, but in fairness would have let us suffer for our own wrong doings. Instead, He is fully understands the fact that we could never dig ourselves out of the hole we are in, so He did it for us and gave us instead a much easier burden to bear... simply accept that He is who He says He is and accept that He paid the penalty for your sins.
Many would argure that this leads to some sort of "loophole" we can use... live a bad life and just make sure that at the very end we say the magical "I believe" prayer and we get a free pass to Heaven. The only problem with that is that God is not going to be used. If that person on the deathbed is TRULY repentent of what he has done and TRULY turns to God and would be a changed person if they were to live... God knows that. OTOH, if the person couldn't care less about God or his fellow man and had no love in his heart but was trying to use God's mercy like some piece of IRS code... God knows that too.... and from what I see in the Bible it doesn't count.
I for one am thankful that God doesn't condemn us for our deeds... my future wouldn't look good if He did. OTOH, His mercy and forgiveness make me thankful and make me desire to live differently than I did before... offering Him back my life and whatever good I do, not as "payment" or a way to earn the salvation He gave me for free, but as a gift of appreciation to Him for what He has done... a gift from me freely given.
I think we get mixed up when we think of a "Loving God". We want God to keep a scorecard, but salvation and condemnation He doesn't. He gives us a whole life to choose Him or self... and when we die, He simply gives us what we chose.
Joe
Just a couple more thoughts...
If a murderer is truly guilty (not a screw up of the courts), then they should be put to death. The Bible is pretty clear on the God given DUTY of the state to impliment the death penalty where they think it is needed:
Note the use of the word SWORD. The sword wasn't used to spank people or to flog them or anything of the kind. The sword is a letal weapon. The verse above shows that not only does the state have the right to bear the sword, but says that they don't bear if for nothing (in other words, they don't show it and then not use it) but that they are actually doing God's will went they do it. This is, of course, speaking of a just government. If they are unjust, God will deal with them also, in His time.
I don't believe that God's purpose in this is revenge. The punishment is to provoke fear in others so that they will live peaceable lives and help build harmony and community. Some would say that this was a government tool to control people... but the person we believe wrote this (Paul) was under persecution from the government, so it's doubtful that His intent was to further the cause of any one political structure. The removal of the wrongdoer is not that different than us cutting out a malignancy... if it isn't dealt with, it will damage and negatively effect the whole. If it is removed, the whole is safer. Also, remember that this physical life is only a tiny drop in the bucket as far as God is concerned... if we live eternally, the longer we live, the less this life means.
So what about the person who does all sorts of bad things and then gets saved? Should they still be put to death? Absolutely... maybe even moreso than the person that isn't saved. Why? Because, they would be demonstrating what is right (removal of the evil from humanity) and also, they are going to a place that is better, not a place that is worse. As the Apostle Paul said "For me, to live is Christ, but to die is gain." In other words, while living, He could be a content Christian and do the work for Christ, but he knew that death would bring with it a much, much better existance to him.
Joe
If a murderer is truly guilty (not a screw up of the courts), then they should be put to death. The Bible is pretty clear on the God given DUTY of the state to impliment the death penalty where they think it is needed:
Note the use of the word SWORD. The sword wasn't used to spank people or to flog them or anything of the kind. The sword is a letal weapon. The verse above shows that not only does the state have the right to bear the sword, but says that they don't bear if for nothing (in other words, they don't show it and then not use it) but that they are actually doing God's will went they do it. This is, of course, speaking of a just government. If they are unjust, God will deal with them also, in His time.
I don't believe that God's purpose in this is revenge. The punishment is to provoke fear in others so that they will live peaceable lives and help build harmony and community. Some would say that this was a government tool to control people... but the person we believe wrote this (Paul) was under persecution from the government, so it's doubtful that His intent was to further the cause of any one political structure. The removal of the wrongdoer is not that different than us cutting out a malignancy... if it isn't dealt with, it will damage and negatively effect the whole. If it is removed, the whole is safer. Also, remember that this physical life is only a tiny drop in the bucket as far as God is concerned... if we live eternally, the longer we live, the less this life means.
So what about the person who does all sorts of bad things and then gets saved? Should they still be put to death? Absolutely... maybe even moreso than the person that isn't saved. Why? Because, they would be demonstrating what is right (removal of the evil from humanity) and also, they are going to a place that is better, not a place that is worse. As the Apostle Paul said "For me, to live is Christ, but to die is gain." In other words, while living, He could be a content Christian and do the work for Christ, but he knew that death would bring with it a much, much better existance to him.
Joe
JupiterJones
Senior member
I,m sorry I took a confrontitive tone with you Jupiter. I realize how useless it is to argue at cross purposes here. I'm not exqctly your everyday humanist,
No need to apologize, anybody my size has very thick skin (both literally and figuratively). My only point earlier was to attack/mock the idea that just because G_d is not what someone has imagined somehow invalidates Him.
Reading over a bit of the actual subject at hand, it would seem that your point about capital punishment for the new Saint would be valid if we were living in a theocracy. However, this nation has chosen to legally ignore G_d.
In some of the early colonies, where theocracies existed, conversion would absolve one of secular guilt as well as guilt in the final judgement.
No need to apologize, anybody my size has very thick skin (both literally and figuratively). My only point earlier was to attack/mock the idea that just because G_d is not what someone has imagined somehow invalidates Him.
Reading over a bit of the actual subject at hand, it would seem that your point about capital punishment for the new Saint would be valid if we were living in a theocracy. However, this nation has chosen to legally ignore G_d.
In some of the early colonies, where theocracies existed, conversion would absolve one of secular guilt as well as guilt in the final judgement.
Jupiter, I was specifically addressing this issue to Christians who, in my opinion, seem often to be those who must support capital punishment. I find this ironic. There is, however, I see, a catch in my reasoning. I see a convert to Christianity as someone who has died to his old self and found, not really the Christian God with it's heaven after death, but the true self for which this life is heaven to enjoy. So for me to kill a real Christian is a total waste. The world where is needed is here and now. In death there is nothing. Just my opinion, you understand. I could not perform the trick of surrendering my notion of rationality to a god that doesn't make sense to me. I was only able to find meaning in absolute meaninglessness. When you take away everything you can from a person you leave them only with what they are. What a surprise that was.
Netopia, I sort of thought the stuff you mentioned had all sort of been covered. If man is supposed to make laws with Guidance than we're still back to the use of killing somebody who isn't there anymore. If God forgives then the law must too. The state has a duty not to allow unrepent killers from running around, but there's no problem about letting a repentent one do so. He will only do good, NO?
My intention was to express the view that the death penalty is absurd in light of Christ's forgiveness. If we have a lifetime to find Him, then if we kill a murderer say at 21 we remove the part of ones natural lifetime in which that could happen. Seems kinda dumb. Killing real Christians is bad. It makes no sense at all. It's stupid. What else can I say? 😀
My intention was to express the view that the death penalty is absurd in light of Christ's forgiveness. If we have a lifetime to find Him, then if we kill a murderer say at 21 we remove the part of ones natural lifetime in which that could happen. Seems kinda dumb. Killing real Christians is bad. It makes no sense at all. It's stupid. What else can I say? 😀
kleinesarschloch
Senior member
it's the 21st century. i can't believe this discussion is actually going on.
ResidentIdiot
Junior Member
If you murder people in the "name of god" then you have accepted jesus in your heart. It's a pointless argument anyway considering how it's all superstition.
Tripleshot
Elite Member
Idiot YES----resident------NO.
ResidentIdiot
Junior Member
Idiot - Possibly
Resident - Thankfully not
And I am free to express my will where ever I choose. I don't judge you so please extend me the same courtesy.
Resident - Thankfully not
And I am free to express my will where ever I choose. I don't judge you so please extend me the same courtesy.
Death is still what we humans have earned for ever sinning against God. But when God forgives us, we no longer have to be separated from Him forever. We still die. We earned it. God is a fair employer, and we get what we earn; death. The job has great benefits though... like that whole everlasting life with God in heaven thing instead of everlasting life in torment in hell. Whatever way you slice it, we still have everlasting life. Death doesn't change that.
If that doesn't make any sense to you, try to understand the nature of the infinite:
In a spectrum, if anything can be measured, it has the potential to be infinite. According to the nature of the infinite, with anything that has the potential to be infinite, in at least one case, it IS infinite. In a closed system such as one race of beings (the human race), all items in the system are essentially similar. If any of us have everlasting life, all of us do. Problem is, many of us spend everlasting life in torment. Where we spend it is the part that's not based on universal law, but on the grace of God. He made us with the ability to understand our condition, and the laws surrounding that condition, even if we can't completely comprehend 'the infinite'.
If that doesn't make any sense to you, try to understand the nature of the infinite:
In a spectrum, if anything can be measured, it has the potential to be infinite. According to the nature of the infinite, with anything that has the potential to be infinite, in at least one case, it IS infinite. In a closed system such as one race of beings (the human race), all items in the system are essentially similar. If any of us have everlasting life, all of us do. Problem is, many of us spend everlasting life in torment. Where we spend it is the part that's not based on universal law, but on the grace of God. He made us with the ability to understand our condition, and the laws surrounding that condition, even if we can't completely comprehend 'the infinite'.
Wrong. The Chrisitan God is one of very conditional love. If you don't believe in him, he sends you to burn in hell for all eternity. True unconditional love would be him loving us no matter what we do. Unless his love manifests itself as punishing us for all eternity, I don't buy that uncoditional love crap.
Athlon4all
Diamond Member
God will forgive any sin, if the person will accept Jesus' perfect sacrifice for their sin. He forgave David in his terrible sin of Aduletry, Murder, and lies. And even the redeemed, true believers in Jesus Christ, sadly sin. We don't need to, "If anyone is in Christ, He is a new creation, old things have passed away, behold all things have become new" (I Cor 5:17).
If one has truly accepted Jesus Christ into their heart, and not just gotten baptized, not become just a member of some church, then he will have the Holy Spirit in Him, and the believer will be worked in greatly and will see more and more of the LORD.
I would ecnourage all you that read this to seriously, consider accepting Christ into your heart. "Jesus is the way, the truth and the life", and "He came that you might have life, and have it more abundantly." He wants to be in a relationship and be in fellowship with you, thats right you, and every single man that has ever lived on this planet, but He is a Holy God, and cannot tolerate or be in one who is accountable for his sins. If you will let Him into your heart, then in God the Father's eyes, will be cleansed. Will you still sin? Probably, but you don't need to and the LORD will continue to work the sin out of you. Jesus Christ is the prince of Peace. Only through Him will you or anyone find peace, happiness or fulfillment.
I will warn you who have not accepted Christ, that if you continue to refuse Christ, that you will be Judged, you will be held accoutnable for the sins that you have done. Don't think that you're a "good Christian person." "All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God," and see the LORD God is the just judge. He is going to judge all those who have not accepted Jesus Christ, and thus are accountable for their sins. Some of you may be wonderign how this "God of Love" that the Bible talks about can judge and send everyone who doesn't accept Christ to Hell. He has given you every oppertunity to repend. Every second of every day, right now, Jesus is knocking at the door of your heart, and the Holy Spirit is bearing witness to you of Christ, but you choose consciously, to reject Him. If He was this "terrible, impersonal, mean daddy," then He would've had Adam and Eve leave the garden, with no hope for eternal life or fellowship with Him. He would've smoked the Children of Israel riight when they forsook the LORD, not to mention He would've never sent Jesus Christ to this earth, and he wouldn't put up with all those who have accepted Him, who still live in Sin!!!
The LORD is love, and he is giving each and every one of you every oppertunity for you to accept Christ, but I warn you. Judgment is coming! And the only way to salvation is Jesus Christ.
If one has truly accepted Jesus Christ into their heart, and not just gotten baptized, not become just a member of some church, then he will have the Holy Spirit in Him, and the believer will be worked in greatly and will see more and more of the LORD.
I would ecnourage all you that read this to seriously, consider accepting Christ into your heart. "Jesus is the way, the truth and the life", and "He came that you might have life, and have it more abundantly." He wants to be in a relationship and be in fellowship with you, thats right you, and every single man that has ever lived on this planet, but He is a Holy God, and cannot tolerate or be in one who is accountable for his sins. If you will let Him into your heart, then in God the Father's eyes, will be cleansed. Will you still sin? Probably, but you don't need to and the LORD will continue to work the sin out of you. Jesus Christ is the prince of Peace. Only through Him will you or anyone find peace, happiness or fulfillment.
I will warn you who have not accepted Christ, that if you continue to refuse Christ, that you will be Judged, you will be held accoutnable for the sins that you have done. Don't think that you're a "good Christian person." "All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God," and see the LORD God is the just judge. He is going to judge all those who have not accepted Jesus Christ, and thus are accountable for their sins. Some of you may be wonderign how this "God of Love" that the Bible talks about can judge and send everyone who doesn't accept Christ to Hell. He has given you every oppertunity to repend. Every second of every day, right now, Jesus is knocking at the door of your heart, and the Holy Spirit is bearing witness to you of Christ, but you choose consciously, to reject Him. If He was this "terrible, impersonal, mean daddy," then He would've had Adam and Eve leave the garden, with no hope for eternal life or fellowship with Him. He would've smoked the Children of Israel riight when they forsook the LORD, not to mention He would've never sent Jesus Christ to this earth, and he wouldn't put up with all those who have accepted Him, who still live in Sin!!!
The LORD is love, and he is giving each and every one of you every oppertunity for you to accept Christ, but I warn you. Judgment is coming! And the only way to salvation is Jesus Christ.
scoobytreats
Member
In reference to the question "does God forgive a murderer who has accepted Jesus into his heart?" yes He does. That's the beauty of God. His free gift of salvation is attainable to everyone. God also says we must live by the laws of men, as well as His laws. So if this murderer is put on trial and is convicted he is subject to the laws of men because of his murderous actions. But through Grace He is saved and God has forgiven him. All sins are equal in God's eyes, unlike our humanistic view on sin. We think that to murder someone is far worse than a lie, but God doesn't see it that way. Like I said, they are all equal. Hope this helps.
With all due respect to your beliefs, I am not rejecting God, or Jesus. I am rejecting you, and everyone who believes as you do. You say God gives me every opportunity to repent and be saved, but the only ones I hear from are his followers. Now your God may be perfect, but humans are, as you would agree, dishonest people who lie constantly to get what they want. Why in the world should I believe you over anyone else? How can God be just if he is going to punish me for not believing the church, a group of imperfect people if ever there was one? What comes after life is the most important thing to you, yet I am just supposed to take your word for it, and if I don't, I'm damned for all eternity. I doubt God would give me this great, problem solving brain, and just expect me to make the most important decision of my life because you told me to. Now you can say "it's not my word, it's God's" all you want, but while you could be right, you could be making it all up, and I have no way of knowing that. So answer me this question. Why would God want to punish us for thinking for ourselves and not believing in something simply because we are told it is true?
You are correct! That is why, in the Bible, the Apostle Paul calls the people from Berea more noble than others. They did NOT simply believe what he had to say about Jesus, but searched through the older scriptures to see if what he was claiming fit with what facts they already had. They were, as you put it, using thier "great, problem solving brain(s)".
You could do the same. Test the scriptures. More and more, archeologist are confirming things the Bible has said all along. Sodom and Gomorah didn't exist... no evidense.... until some researchers found acient references to them. The Bible was accurate. King David was thought to be a Hebrew myth, a conglomeration of kings and heros... until researchers (in the last 10 years) found a monument from an ENEMY king to commemorate having defeated King David's army! The Bible was accurate.
Examine the prophesies of the Old Testement about whoever the Messiah would be. They said He would be from Bethlehem, but called a Nazarean. There are dozens of other prophesies written HUNDREDS of years before Jesus was born... including that they would pierce both his hands and his feet.... even though crucifiction like that didn't even exist when the books were written!
Use your brain... start figuring out the odds, calculate the statistics about these things being predicted by random chance. Then YOU decide for yourself one way or the other. In reality, you are totally correct.... we (believers) can only carry a message, it is you who have to do the decision making and thinking.
Joe
That would be rather easily explained if Jesus were a part of a huge effort by a school to bring humanity a deeper truth in stages. It would also, I think, point to the possibility that Islam is the third wave.
We are, as humans, stuck with the obvious fact of our existance. We see no visions of the future, we conclude that it is unknowable. Always to believe in God as something out there like the typical understanding runs, you have to inject some element of faith, in this case faith that somebody could fortell the future. Without that element of faith, it looks like somebody planned it anead of time, or it's pure accident based on vagueness. There is nothing at all surprising about the Bible having historical truth, however. It's just stuff like walking on water like across a swimming pool that makes an objective person reel. I just can't buy it no matter how much I wish I could. I tried real hard.
We are, as humans, stuck with the obvious fact of our existance. We see no visions of the future, we conclude that it is unknowable. Always to believe in God as something out there like the typical understanding runs, you have to inject some element of faith, in this case faith that somebody could fortell the future. Without that element of faith, it looks like somebody planned it anead of time, or it's pure accident based on vagueness. There is nothing at all surprising about the Bible having historical truth, however. It's just stuff like walking on water like across a swimming pool that makes an objective person reel. I just can't buy it no matter how much I wish I could. I tried real hard.
The problem with that theory is the fact that since God loves us unconditionally, he is not willing to force his presence on us. He wants US to want Him before he will bring us into his presence. He has given us free choice, and he loves us enough to let us make the wrong choice, even to our own destruction, so that we can understand unconditional love ourselves. God DOES love us no matter what we do, but he still has to punish us. A loving father punishes his children because he loves them and wants them to grow up into mature, loving and moral people, not because he is angry with them and hates them.
There have been several times when God has been angry with his children and punished them, but he always acted out of love. They never got more punishment than they deserved, and what's more, they always had the option to come back to him. At one point it says in the Bible that God will let out a mighty roar, and his children will return to him, whimpering for his forgiveness, and he will welcome them with open arms.
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