Does God forgive a murder who accepts Jesus in his heart?

[fonzinator]

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: rufruf44

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: fonzinator
However, if someone were to say, "I am a Christian," and display an authentic shift from their desire to sin, to a desire to glorify God, it would appear their statement is true.

So do we still execute them or not?

Kill em. And let them take their case to God.

What about that "Thou Shall Not Kill" little thing?

That is a poor translation of the verse. The better translation is "Thou shall not murder," which you will find in newer translations of the Bible (ie. NIV, NASB). This Hebrew word for murder, is used in the Old Testament to describe taking justice/judgement into one's own hands and out of God's hands. This commandment isn't saying that all killing is wrong, but that murder is.

 

[yowolabi]

Romans 13:1-7 tells us to obey our government. If capital punishment is part of our law, then we are to obey that.

The government is not a static thing or set of rules to be obeyed without question. Back when that was written, "government" was almost always royalty where the people had little say.

With a democratic government, the government is whatever you make it to be. If you simply obey the current laws, without judging if they are just and then working to change unjust laws, you deserve all the bad things your government will do to you.

 

[Tripleshot]

I would think that when you die and realize you are in the presence of your Lord (and not forever in a grave with no thought or conscince, as some foolishly believe), you will have a completely different outlook on all temporal ideas, and come to know the true Love of Jesus. With that, your humble acceptance and obedience to the eternal laws of heaven will apply and discussions such as this will be so trivial and rediculous as to be completely dismissed.

You people need to see the whole picture. Heaven is not measured in earthly ways,which is the only thing you know of without asking in sincere prayer, your Heavenly Father to reveal the Truth to you.

When you die, you will still await the second coming and final judgement. In the spirit world, you will have the oppurtunity to accept or reject the Lords plan of salvation. The pain of that existance is that only part of the fullness of the Blessings can be afforded to one in that state. But in that state, one is not in hellfire and brimstone, burning and writhling in eternal pain. That is reserved for the sons of perdition, and the third of the hosts of heaven who were cast out and never recieved a body of flesh and bone. To recieve exaltation, one must have recieved a body. Hitler qualified. Soid Ghingus Khan. So what? They are judged in the final accounting by someone much greater than ourselves, and what happens to them is not our concern. If indeed they embrace the gift of salvation offered by their Heavenly Father, then that is good, isn't it?

 

[Moonbeam]

BOOne, because we don't know is exactly the problem. My question is what is the point of killing a real Christian. We can use all we can get, wouldn't you think, even in prison.

Lethal, that stuff is indeed cool. The only cautionary advise I'd give on that subject is that chemicals and neuroscientific explanations of psychic phenomenon are not the same as the internal experience of God, just as every scientific fact about the Mona Lisa does not carry with it the experience of the painting.

 

[yowolabi]

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: fonzinator

Originally posted by: freebee
If this were true, I would rather suffer in hell than to believe in jesus.

Why?? Please explain...

He'd rather spend eternity suffering because he doesn't agree.

I can identify with his position.

If your actions in this world have no consequence, and all that matters is you "believe" when you die...

If a person who takes another's life can experience heaven while a lifelong moral person who simply doesn't believe in God goes to hell...

Then I would rather go to hell than worship a system I consider unjust and immoral.

The thing is, no one who says this really wants to go to hell. What they probably believe is that if there's a heaven and hell, then people will be judged purely on how they lived, and that it is a just system.

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: fonzinator

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: fonzinator
However, if someone were to say, "I am a Christian," and display an authentic shift from their desire to sin, to a desire to glorify God, it would appear their statement is true.

So do we still execute them or not?

Romans 13:1-7 tells us to obey our government. If capital punishment is part of our law, then we are to obey that.

What about the "Thou Shall Not Kill" in the other part of the bible? What if I lived in a government that had Zeus as the official god? That's a pretty lame bit of scripture to use to justify anything.

 

[jjones]

Moonbeam, here's a question for you. Will God forgive the man who knowingly creates evil in his life because he knows at the end he can and will be forgiven if he simply accepts Jesus in his heart? Conceivably, a man could bank his salvation on that idea and be the vilest of men during his life.

 

[Zebo]

Nope: "Those who conquer will inherit these things, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, the murderers, the fornicators, the sorcerers, the idolaters, and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death." [Rev. 21:7-8]"

For salvation three things are required
-Have faith in Jesus
-Be baptised
-Die in a state of righteousness.

 

[B00ne]

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: LOLyourFace
just read the title, and the answer is yes. As long as it's genuine

If Hitler was genuine and accepted Jesus as his lord and savior before he died....yup, we would be seeing old Adolph in heaven.

But Hitlers supposed acceptance cannot have been genuine. He killed himself, had he really accepted Jesus he couldn't have done that. (and had accepted responsibilty for his actions instead!?)



But I dunno, my logic could be flawed.

 

[Moonbeam]

Hehe, Tripleshot, I have never heard your kinder gentler version of Christianity where people get to accept or reject in the spirit world. What a switch from the you accept in this life or are damned. Am I reading you right and is that a Mormon thing? I'm just blown away by how much kinder such an approach is.

 

[Zebo]

Thank you Martin Luther. The problem is today there is no longer a standard of right and wrong and any sin, any horror, can be justified and/or forgiven.

 

[fonzinator]

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Nope: "Those who conquer will inherit these things, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, the murderers, the fornicators, the sorcerers, the idolaters, and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death." [Rev. 21:7-8]"

For salvation three things are required
-Have faith in Jesus
-Be baptised
-Die in a state of righteousness.

Not to open up another can of worms, but where do you get "Be baptized" as a requirement for salvation from this verse??

 

[Moonbeam]

jjones, you are asking the wrong person. I don't know. I'm not a believer, as such. My question revolves around the notion, as I said, of responsibility. How are we holding the responsible accountable if we kill somebody who already died in God's name? You are asking, I think, if a cunning person could sin all his life and at the end accept God knowing he's forgiven. My guess is that accepting God has the Grace thingi about it. I don't see the cunning being too successful in calling that down, but it's just a guess. I thought I tried pretty hard to find Him when I was younger, but unless he chose to work through Zen, he never did. The grace I found didn't have a name on it. It did, however, make quite a bit of difference, sort of like the sun comming up.

 

[ThisIsMatt]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
How do you tell if it's genuine?

You don't, God does.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: fonzinator

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Nope: "Those who conquer will inherit these things, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, the murderers, the fornicators, the sorcerers, the idolaters, and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death." [Rev. 21:7-8]"

For salvation three things are required
-Have faith in Jesus
-Be baptised
-Die in a state of righteousness.

Not to open up another can of worms, but where do you get "Be baptized" as a requirement for salvation from this verse??

I don't I read it in the C.C.C. looooooooooooong time ago.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: GOD316
YES! I FORGIVE ALL EVEN THE LOWEST OF SCUM

Hey God, you need to work on your grammar.

 

[drewshin]

if god is omniscient, then he must have known that adolf hitler was going to be a bad person....why did he create him in the first place???

how can he create someone knowing that they are going to be sent to hell for all eternity???

 

[fonzinator]

Originally posted by: Carbonyl

Originally posted by: fonzinator

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Nope: "Those who conquer will inherit these things, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, the murderers, the fornicators, the sorcerers, the idolaters, and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death." [Rev. 21:7-8]"

For salvation three things are required
-Have faith in Jesus
-Be baptised
-Die in a state of righteousness.

Not to open up another can of worms, but where do you get "Be baptized" as a requirement for salvation from this verse??

I don't I read it in the C.C.C. looooooooooooong time ago.

What is C.C.C.??

 

[Tripleshot]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Hehe, Tripleshot, I have never heard your kinder gentler version of Christianity where people get to accept or reject in the spirit world. What a switch from the you accept in this life or are damned. Am I reading you right and is that a Mormon thing? I'm just blown away by how much kinder such an approach is.

It is my faith and understanding of the plan of salvation that motivated me to post my feelings. It follows logic. I am a father. If my children do wrong and disobey me, I rebuke them, I do not stop loving them. I would not condemn them to hellfire and damnation. I would provide every way possible to have them repent and come back into good favor with me.

Would a loving and caring Heavenly Father do any different? I think not.

And I was made in his image. And so are you, and every person of flesh and bone on this earth.

The plan of salvation is freely given to all. My faith in the teachings of my Church are in preparation for a greater glory and promise given based on obedience and good works. That is the journey I am on. It gives me peace and hope. It certainly can't be bad then, can it? 😉

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: drewshin
if god is omniscient, then he must have known that adolf hitler was going to be a bad person....why did he create him in the first place???

how can he create someone knowing that they are going to be sent to hell for all eternity???

Because he knows what will happen, does not mean that the person doesn't have free will. The Person is the one choosing to do wrong, God does not choose that for him. However, God does know which way he will end up choosing.

 

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
BOOne, because we don't know is exactly the problem. My question is what is the point of killing a real Christian. We can use all we can get, wouldn't you think, even in prison.

Lethal, that stuff is indeed cool. The only cautionary advise I'd give on that subject is that chemicals and neuroscientific explanations of psychic phenomenon are not the same as the internal experience of God, just as every scientific fact about the Mona Lisa does not carry with it the experience of the painting.

I agree. And the article was careful to be nonjudgemental. It didn't say there was/wasn't a god, it just said this is what's going on in the brain during x, y, or z. 🙂


Lethal

 

[fonzinator]

Originally posted by: drewshin
if god is omniscient, then he must have known that adolf hitler was going to be a bad person....why did he create him in the first place???

how can he create someone knowing that they are going to be sent to hell for all eternity???

Great question. And I think the greatest answer I've ever heard is Paul's response to this very question in Romans 9 starting at verse 19.

"17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[8] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: fonzinator

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: rufruf44

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: fonzinator
However, if someone were to say, "I am a Christian," and display an authentic shift from their desire to sin, to a desire to glorify God, it would appear their statement is true.

So do we still execute them or not?

Kill em. And let them take their case to God.

What about that "Thou Shall Not Kill" little thing?

That is a poor translation of the verse. The better translation is "Thou shall not murder," which you will find in newer translations of the Bible (ie. NIV, NASB). This Hebrew word for murder, is used in the Old Testament to describe taking justice/judgement into one's own hands and out of God's hands. This commandment isn't saying that all killing is wrong, but that murder is.

So you're supporting my point right?

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: yowolabi

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: fonzinator

Originally posted by: freebee
If this were true, I would rather suffer in hell than to believe in jesus.

Why?? Please explain...

He'd rather spend eternity suffering because he doesn't agree.

I can identify with his position.

If your actions in this world have no consequence, and all that matters is you "believe" when you die...

I agree with this. A person can be the most evil thing to ever live, but as long as he believes in his last 5 earthly seconds.....I dont buy it.

 

[Zebo]

What is C.C.C.??

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH! A compendium of Catholic beliefs! The second best seller of all time!